King Song S18 Discussion

[Stillhart]

So I don't want to clog up the Q&A thread with this, but I'm going to reference it here:  do people normally give the MFR's such a hard time about super technical details on the product?  I've never once been in an enthusiast community where people start looking up specs of individual components and then call out the manufacturer for on really specific hypothetical situations.  I feel like people are giving Jack and KS an enormously hard time right now and I can't tell if they're being d-bags on purpose to troll or if they don't realize they're being d-bags.  I mean, FFS, if you don't like the product, don't fucking buy it.  But you don't have to be rude to the mfr for not making your exact specific dream product...

/rant

[.....]

I wonder how in the world RollNZ is going to fashion a cover for this? I was thinking to myself.. maybe I should see if he's plans, so i can get a cover BEFORE a bash this sks18 to death. Then I realized.. who am  I kidding, I'll drop this thing probably before Im even done unboxing it. I surely hope the plastic panels are tough and easily replaced, as I'd imagine this one is going to live a hard naked life.. I bet it looks even better once its got some battle scars...

 

I think there is a LOT of technically minded people here. Since these EUC companies can sometimes be a little less than transparent, Jack is getting a TON of questions. A lot of questions are a little too much, and some questions are impossible to answer. It is up to JACK to decide how to address this. Fwiw, look at all the exposure they are getting. I mean hell, look at the post count. Even if he doesnt answer much, he's in a great spot to promote the brand...

I dont think people are TRYING to be rude(some people are just assholes). Hell, Im not trying to be, but sometimes it just happens. Some of my questions are WAY too spec driven, but thats just how i think. If they dont get answered, its not that big a deal, as Im used to not even having a person to ask them to. I would be giving the other companies the same hard time IF I was as interested in the product. Just the mere fact that I seem so worried, is a good sign for KS. I preordered one and have NEVER preordered something so expnsive before. Unfortunately, it makes me nervous and Im asking Jack a million questions to ease this. Some people are biased against the sks18 and they are obviously asking questions so they can be assured they dont like it. Just as I ask questions to be assured that I WILL like it. In the end, its a shit storm and I dont think theres any easy way around it. Im sure how this goes down, will influence release strategies in the future.  Opening up a q&A is tough, especially when you dont know the specs of everything. I'd imagine Jack has to refer to someone else, quite frequently, for answers. I also suspect that KS is dancing the line of transparency and sales tactics. Once in print as an answer, they are more bound to that ideal.

*side note... we are asking about a vehicle that has potential to kill you. New tech nonetheless, very little regulations or testing standard. Its a little more important than wondering about how loud a vacuum cleaner will be.

Edited April 14, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[davinche]

17 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

So I don't want to clog up the Q&A thread with this, but I'm going to reference it here:  do people normally give the MFR's such a hard time about super technical details on the product?  I've never once been in an enthusiast community where people start looking up specs of individual components and then call out the manufacturer for on really specific hypothetical situations.  I feel like people are giving Jack and KS an enormously hard time right now and I can't tell if they're being d-bags on purpose to troll or if they don't realize they're being d-bags.  I mean, FFS, if you don't like the product, don't fucking buy it.  But you don't have to be rude to the mfr for not making your exact specific dream product...

/rant

I don't think people are intentionally being "d-bags". There's enthusiasm, but part of it may be language as well. AFAIK, the forums here is the primary place for discourse with regards to EUC - this would include non-native english speakers as well. So sometimes things may come across as more "harsh" than usual.

But with regards to tech, for me at least EUC is not my first foray into manufactured goods from China. I dabble in a lot 3D printing and stuff too and some of my printers are made by Chinese companies as well. A commonality between these two communities is that people have come to acknowledge that the QA standards in China seems to be quite lower compared to a manufactured good from an American company. This is not exactly a criticism, just a statement to reflect how hyper competitive the Chinese market is. But when some of the QA (or lack of) results in potentially harming end users, that is when criticism is key.

As an example: a certain chinese 3d printer company use to ship their printers without thermal runaway protection. All American printers have this feature - it shuts the printer off when there is an anomaly detected in the temperature of the hotend. But it took one (or maybe more users) to accidentally set their house / rooms on fire before the issue was taken seriously.

So looping back to EUCs: there needs to be a balance between speculation and criticism backed by facts. I for one am kinda glad that there's a community that is actively spending their own time to go over what is being released to the public.

Edited April 14, 2020 by davinche

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I wonder how in the world RollNZ is going to fashion a cover for this?

I’m sure Kevin has some thoughts running though his brain. Hopefully the suspension system remains visible.

 

[.....]

your jedi photo skills are improving.  So this time, my cover will come in time to HIDE the damage rather than prevent it...  I dunno, paratrooper wheel look AFTER a battle, may be the ticket.

[mrelwood]

 

2 hours ago, Stillhart said:

do people normally give the MFR's such a hard time about super technical details on the product?

People are obviously extremely interested and enthusiastic about the wheel, but simply referring to past experiences the battery configuration raises red flags. I think that's what drives people to be a bit hot on the subject, as purely from the history perspective, the manufacturer's choice can potentially be a bit of a dangerous one. Uninteresting vs potentially dangerous are received very differently.

The S18 is not a wheel for me, so my blood doesn't get pumping because of it's specs. But since there seemed to be plans to ship the V11 with a tire that's unsuitable for the advertized demographic, I was sharing my concerns pretty vocally as well. Luckily changing the tire is a relatively easy thing to do, both for the manufacturer, or if it comes to that, for me after the purchase. Changing the battery configuration, not so much.

[meepmeepmayer]

7 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

I’m sure Kevin has some thoughts running though his brain.

@The Fat Unicyclist This is the wheel to have a cover including a transparent plastic window.

[.....]

14 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

@The Fat Unicyclist This is the wheel to have a cover including a transparent plastic window.

Im still not convinced that the open area is going to be a problem. I'm also not convinced that a sewn in plastic window, wouldnt be a nightmare. I wonder if the cooling of the wheel requires air flow? I must be the only person who isnt concerned about it.I do know that I'll be watching fro what Kevin comes up with, and for him to tell us his mten cover is ready for cheap.  Hell, I may hose my sks18 down the day i get it and I'll not have to wonder anymore...

[Phong Vu]

3 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Im still not convinced that the open area is going to be a problem.

I would love to "wash" this one the same way to wash dirt bike.
That should be the priority, not the cover.

[Girth Brooks]

13 hours ago, Stillhart said:

I mean, FFS, if you don't like the product, don't fucking buy it.  

FACT!

[fryman]

15 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

I’m sure Kevin has some thoughts running though his brain. Hopefully the suspension system remains visible.

Make the suspension visible but cover the sides with battery packs.

[Oscapuss]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iimHJX2xF7E

Kuji review.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Oscapuss

[Phong Vu]

yess

20 minutes ago, Oscapuss said:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iimHJX2xF7E

Kuji review.

 

[Patton250]

Does the S18 have the same motor as the the new motor in the 18XL? 

[.....]

7 hours ago, Phong Vu said:

I would love to "wash" this one the same way to wash dirt bike.
That should be the priority, not the cover.

EXACTLY! All they have to do is hose it down after a dirty ride, let it dry a bit and ride some more. IF they would show that, MAYBE we wouldnt have to wonder and hear so much cynicism. I'll hose my down, but I'd rather not be the first test pig, not many parts at my house to fix it if it cant take it. It WOULD make a badass lookin paperweight tho.

Totally diggin that tire...  Woohoo,  Kuji  crashed it...   Hmm, pop of pieces is one way to help lessen breakage. I wonder if that was the intent? So IT IS still in prototype... good to know!I like the honesty in the demo. Even when addressing little 'problem' areas, it comforts me to know they are being recognized. CNC aluminum anodized parts ftw! Keep the vids coming, good stuff!

Edited April 14, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Afeez Kay]

It may not be a performance wheel but it  is one hell of a good looking EUC.. 😍

Edited April 14, 2020 by Afeez Kay

[FreeRide]

We could just delete this thread, and it would just be a bad memory. The important information is already in the other threads.

[Patton250]

7 minutes ago, Afeez Kay said:

It may not be a performance wheel but it  is one hell of a good looking EUC.. 😍

Why do you say it’s not a performance wheel? What qualifies as a performance wheel to you? 40 mph?

7 minutes ago, FreeRide said:

We could just delete this thread, and it would just be a bad memory. The important information is already in the other threads.

What’s wrong?

[gon2fast]

 We can keep commenting on higher top speeds or larger battery configurations, but that is not what this wheel is about. It is about the suspension and keeping the unit on the cheaper side. The S18 seems to go plenty fast for my needs and I do not go on 30+ mile rides so I am content with the current configuration. Some have commented that the wheel will not be able to produce enough power to be safe which I find to be another non-issue since I am currently beating the crap out of two far lesser wheels (please don't ask me about their p-ness... I kid). 

It also was great to hear that the wheel is still in development.  

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, FreeRide said:

We could just delete this thread, and it would just be a bad memory. The important information is already in the other threads.

I think that is a little narrow view on how we have done with threads. 

I think it makes perfect sense that we have a official thread with facts from manufactor and a debate thread so people can debate development among them. This debate is an important tool for the manufactor to take feedback onboard.

We like in times where wrong info is being more the norm every day. And due to this people make conclusion that is based on bad grounds. 

On the other hand I think it is perfectly alright to call out a manufactor to give us proper specs not just numbers with loads of marketing makeup trying to paint a pretty picture.

But also with specs they need to be in right context. To me that means what value does it bring and in relation to what. 

As an example let's say headlight. Kingsong said 2x as strong as KS16X. In numbers it is 2x 5w long beam and 2x 4w wide beam led light units. Or 1600lm. 

For me 1600lm is difficult to relate to as I am not led specialist. But I know the KS16X as I own this but others have also seen review as this is a pretty good lamp unit.

Compared to V11 they stated 18w, oddly enough same as the KS S18 consumption. They talked lux as unit ...then they tried to compare yet it is done by slideshow illustration. Had they only done a video it would be much easier to relate to.

So in the end which does the better job on the headlight. Very hard to tell right now.

We could do the same about the biggest point: suspension system. Which system is better? I can't tell right now if I ever can. But my perception right now make the KSS18 a tinker wheel. The V11 seems more like ride and "forget" about maintenance. I could easily be wrong. 

So back to the quote in the beginning. This what a debate thread is all about. As for Q&A and specs info from brand,  I  think it is much better to not debate this in same thread as it makes it a lot easier for people to follow facts and not speculations.

Just keep in mind @Jack King Song do not only handle this site for KS but other sides too. Making his job easier then more he can share facts with us that we can see easily.

Both KSS18 and V11 get people out of their chair. There is a hot debate going back and forth. But please let's be constructive about it. 

One last note: is it just me or is the lock/release daily knob fairly exposed? Why they didn't put a cover part over it is beyond me. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Unventor

[.....]

6 minutes ago, Unventor said:

One last note: is it just me or is the lock/release daily knob fairly exposed? Why they didn't put a cover part over it is beyond me. 

I wondered about how high the suspension was in compare to the rest of the wheel too. It seems to lower itself when unsprung, but by how much is hard to tell. A couple end over end on a concrete hill would tell us.

[fbhb]

1 hour ago, Patton250 said:

Why do you say it’s not a performance wheel? What qualifies as a performance wheel to you? 40 mph?

He means, it's not a GotWay which as we all know build wheels with much bigger battery and higher top speed!  King Song and Inmotion (even Ninebot) build wheels with safety foremost, but to say that based on their manufacturing policies this is Not a performance wheel, because of that fact is very short sighted IMHO.

From the specs it offers already and the fact that it is still in final development, for my use case I would still consider it a "Performance Wheel"

[Will R]

Such a sexy sexy wheel. I do wonder if the anodisation on the bronzed suspension framed is an uphill battle though, it looks fantastic but as soon as it experiences rubbing or a few kujirolls over dirt and then it's back to the silver underneath. If only it had twice the battery and came in a 2000w variant for peace of mind at speed.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Will R
Buts are important

[Rywokast]

5 minutes ago, Will R said:

Such a sexy sexy wheel. I do wonder if the anodisation on the bronzed suspension framed is an uphill battle though, it looks fantastic but as soon as it experiences rubbing or a few kujirolls over dirt and then it's back to the silver underneath. If only it had twice the battery and came in a 2000w variant for peace of mind at speed.

you can put a clear coat on it.. one that dried hard as rock then anything would need to get through that first. yup, only reason i didnt buy it is the battery.. unless its $1000 or less i have no interest in anything with a small battery

Edited April 14, 2020 by Rywokast

[Unventor]

9 minutes ago, fbhb said:

He means, it's not a GotWay which as we all know build wheels with much bigger battery and higher top speed!  King Song and Inmotion (even Ninebot) build wheels with safety foremost, but to say that based on their manufacturing policies this is Not a performance wheel, because of that fact is very short sighted IMHO.

From the specs it offers already and the fact that it is still in final development, for my use case I would still consider it a "Performance Wheel"

I agree most to this. It is a typical term most GW riders use to play down other brands. 

First of all "performance" label is very unclear. To me that has not anything to do with speed. It could just as well be range, ride comfort, acceleration and braking, robustness...

The next label that goes in hand with the "performance" are we are hard code riders....

Maybe...but I have seen people do hard core performancemaneuvers on V5f and m3ten too. Stuff I would never be able to pull off. 

So whenever people start tossing about with performance and hardcore I cant help thinking...really?