King Song S18 Discussion

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

The S18 in @Marty Backe red.

 

Now you're talking 

[Eucenduro]

11 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

I still don't get it.  You're saying that because of the type of battery they chose to use ("3p"), the motor will only output 1500W instead of the 2200W they claim?  And what's the practical effect of the lower wattage?  Less acceleration?  Is all this technical talk just trying to say that the wheel will perform worse than the "2200W motor" spec would lead us to believe?

Isn't this all stuff that will come to light when people start reviewing them?  What you're talking about it just that it's going to perform not great?  That seems different from safety issues or whatever.  We've already been told that it's a beginner/intermediate wheel from Kuji and I'm sure all the other reviewers will let us know what they really think as well.

Yes something like that. These wheel have a huge motor for these 3p battery. So kingsong Will limit It by software or plate. It have a 2.200w but never be use like 16x. 

[Eucenduro]

Just now, Eucenduro said:

Yes something like that. These wheel have a huge motor for these 3p battery. So kingsong Will limit It by software or plate. It have a 2.200w but never be use like 16x. 

Thinking... Why is a begginer wheel if the motor is the same as 16x?

Easy!!! The 3p is the problem. So Kingsong listen the riders and change that. The s18 can be a top wheel, but not with 3p.

[.....]

All this battery talk and 'beginner' speak have me a tad worried... I have yet to suffer cutout on my 18L, but i am still a beginner as well.  I figured that if KS is touting such a high climb angle ability, that it would at least match my 18L for ability to sustain acceleration. I still havent reached cutout on the one I have, but I am pushing it harder and harder everyday. Im not looking for more range and speed (obviously), but I'm also not looking for a ride that is less safe in the battery department. I know theres more going on than just voltage and amperage specs, but those 2 do tell a tale.  I'm not a total idiot on electrical theory, but theres so many variables i cant wrap my head around it. I do know the cells differ in output amperage between the two. I can only surmise that the sks18 cells have more overall burst power, but this will of course cost more of the overall power in the cells. My worries are from ignorance of course. Wouldnt it make sense that the sks18 and 18l at a steady 50kmh, would get roughly the same range? Wouldnt it also stand to reason that the sks18 would theoretically have more accelleration, assuming both batteries were near full? I KNOW the sks18 doesnt compare to the much larger wheels, but now i wonder how its even going to compare to the ks18L. I am a beginner now of course, but i am hoping not forever..

[Retrovertigo]

Do we know if the suspension linkage is going to be available in both gold and silver? I notice they have shown both colours....and I much prefer the gold look myself. I hope they don't tie the colour to which ever you buy of the black or white model. 

[B08AH]

27 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

Yes something like that. These wheel have a huge motor for these 3p battery. So kingsong Will limit It by software or plate. It have a 2.200w but never be use like 16x. 

which is normal for pretty much every EUC out there. They all have the same motor and several available battery configurations per EUC model. Only top battery can show full engine potential. And there is not much sense, economy-wise, to pair smaller battery configs with weaker engine.

It is an understandable strategy for a company to satisfy 80% users first, and only then satisfy the minority. It worked with 18L => 18XL, and it will work with S18. Few months later they will definitely release a version with bigger battery to satisfy those power hungry users.

Edited April 12, 2020 by B08AH

[davinche]

48 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

I still don't get it.  You're saying that because of the type of battery they chose to use ("3p"), the motor will only output 1500W instead of the 2200W they claim?  And what's the practical effect of the lower wattage?  Less acceleration?  Is all this technical talk just trying to say that the wheel will perform worse than the "2200W motor" spec would lead us to believe?

Isn't this all stuff that will come to light when people start reviewing them?  What you're talking about it just that it's going to perform not great?  That seems different from safety issues or whatever.  We've already been told that it's a beginner/intermediate wheel from Kuji and I'm sure all the other reviewers will let us know what they really think as well.

The dude is basically saying the amount of power the battery can output (at a safe level) is drastically too different from the amount of power the motor can draw.

As per ewheels website, the battery configuration is "20S3P" (20 cells in series, 3 sets of them in parallel), battery is LGM50T.

Not an electrical engineer, only know some basic electronics theory...

So looking at the LGM50T spec sheet, each cell has a voltage of 3.63V and can output a maximum (continuous discharge) of 7.27A.

 

So back to the "20S3P":

20 in series = 20 * 3.63V = 72.6V

3 in Parallel = 3 * 7.27A = 21.81A

Using the "Power rule": P=IV, the maximum power the battery can output is 72.6V * 21.81 = 1583W.

So even with a 2200W motor, you can never safely draw that much power since the battery pack can only output a max of 1583W. Whereas if you change from 3p to 4p, it is much safer due to higher allowable current output.

I think this is correct? My electronics knowledge is limited / rusty.

 

edit: Link to datasheet I googled: https://www.dnkpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/LG-INR21700-M50-Datasheet.pdf

Edited April 12, 2020 by davinche

[Eucenduro]

6 minutes ago, B08AH said:

which is normal for pretty much every EUC out there. They all have the same motor and several available battery configurations per EUC model. Only top battery can show full engine potential, there is not much sense, economy-wise, to pair smaller battery configs with weaker engine.

It is an understandable strategy for a company to satisfy 80% users first, and only then satisfy the minority. It worked with 18L => 18XL, and it will work with S18. Few months later they will definitely release a version with bigger battery to satisfy those power hungry users.

I think that these time isnt the same. The problem is small place on the wheel body so they put 3p LG batery. Remember that we dont Talk about wh!! The 18xL is 6p!!! 

So ok 3p but why they put 2.200w?? 1.500w is enought for these 3p. 

 

[B08AH]

2 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

The 18xL is 6p!!! 

and the same engine is used on 18L which has 4p and was introduced half a year earlier than XL. Did it make sense to release 4p wheel with engine that powerful?

[Eucenduro]

Just now, B08AH said:

and the same engine is used on 18L which has 4p and was introduced half a year earlier than XL. Did it make sense to release 4p wheel with engine that powerful?

4p for the 18l motor is enought. But not these time. 3p degradate the battery very very soon and is dangerous. 

[Rywokast]

36 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

4p for the 18l motor is enought. But not these time. 3p degradate the battery very very soon and is dangerous. 

not to mention the 18L motor and firmware have a very gradual power increase, little torque compared to an 18XL 2200W motor on 2.0 FW, which is why kingsong cripples the speed on that setup starting at 50% battery lol... 50% of a 1554 wh battery... i feel like the ride style of the S18 will be a lot more relaxed and gradual compared to the 16X or else youre going to see a lot of cutouts, im not sure if it was smart to go with 21700 batteries in this case why not just do like the 18L with a 4p setup 18650 batteries? am i missing something, i was under the impression it was only a good idea to switch to 21700 in something with adequate space to be able to squeeze in a little more batteries in that provided space.. but this euc was designed around the usage of 21700s...... so why not put in a little more and make it a tiny bit bigger or go with 18650s?

[B08AH]

9 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

4p for the 18l motor is enought. But not these time. 3p degradate the battery very very soon and is dangerous. 

Still, can you post any of your euc.world tracks? still curious how much power do you actually use.

 

[Rywokast]

you also have to remember the average guy testing it in china could weigh half of what someone in north america does who is riding this every day lol... that greatly increases the probability of overpowering a weaker wheel and having it fail.. it depends on a lot of things but every single rider will be different numbers down to the specific wheel and its firmware, rider weight and terrain.. you cant accurately compare power spikes from one wheel to another. i assume their FW on this will make it a very non aggressive ride

[Espen R]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

@mrelwood already addressed this, but I feel obligated to reaffirm that there's no way in hell that the Gotway MSP gets the same range as the 18L. It's kind of a laughable assertion. To be precise (I own all wheels), the 1800wh MSP gets the same approximate range as the 1600wh KS18XL when ridden at the same speeds. Generally, KingSong wheels get exceptional range per WH of battery because they allow the cells to operate down to a lower voltage than Gotway.

Sure, if you ride the MSP at 35-mph it'll perform like the 18L (which tops on at 31-mph with the wind on your back), but that's not a fair comparison is it?

 

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

@Marty Backe got 61 miles out of the MSP and 57 miles from the 1600Wh 84V MSX. A 2500W motor is not much more "thirsty" than a 2000W motor. I'd imagine that riders who get a lot less range on the MSP, ride fast and furious. The motor is capable of using more power, but for the same input (same amount of lean) at a relaxed cruising speed, it doesn't appear to be much less effective.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I didn't compare the same range scenario in a same speed range test, which isn’t a sensible comparison for me, because doesn’t show the difference in the wheel’s capability or how much power they consume when they are used to their ability. What I imagined was that the wheels were used by an experienced rider that pushed the wheels to what they are capable of, and with the higher wattage motors I assumed higher consumption, and that the real use range on the MSP would be fairly close to the 18L. For me, that is a realistic and fair comparison.

That’s the reason I concluded that a 1400-1800wh battery pack on a 2200-2500W wheel would be closer to the range of a 1036wh 18L with a 2000W motor in a real use scenario, than the 1554wh MSX and 18XL. I might be wrong about this, but I don’t think it’s a “a laughable assertion” @Marty Backe. Range testing a Ferrari 812 Superfast vs an Alfa Romeo 4C with full tanks, you might see that the 812’s larger tank gives you more range, but I fail to see the relevance in that, because it doesn’t reflect the difference in capability between the cars, and if they are used closer to their ability the range will be more similar.

 

Edit side note: If you put the Alfa Romeo 4C tank in the Ferrari 812 Superfast and used the car to its ability, then the range would be silly, aka S18:) I think we need a better way than same speed cruising range to compare the different wheels, because that is really only relevant when you are same speed cruising, and it only reflects the effectiveness of the motor. I have no intention to upgrade my 18XL to something more powerful and then only use it the same way I used the 18XL. I will go faster and accelerate harder on my off-road trails with a more powerful wheel, but my on-road cruising speed would probably be the same, so it isn’t easy to find relevant numbers to compare different wheels with different sized motors.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Espen R

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

7 hours ago, Eucenduro said:

I completely agree with you!
This is not about autonomy or how big the batteries are. it's about safety and degradation. Here no opinions are mathematical. 3p is for a 1500w motor. The ks16 is like a 16s you can never match a msx, a 16x or v10f. All with 4p.
therefore the problem here is marketing is a medium / beginner profile wheel. If you ask more than what you give if the 3p will come problems. So this is not an opinion, they are just numbers.

The 16X has 6p, not 4p. 2 x battery with 3p = 6p

Edited April 12, 2020 by buell47

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

7 hours ago, B08AH said:

It is actually 4p * 10Amps vs 3p*15Amps. S18 battery is more powerful, not less

16X = 6p x 10A =60A

S18 =3p x 15A = 45A

[Afeez Kay]

6 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

The S18 in @Marty Backe red.

 

Liking the red more. Nice one Rehab1 👍🏾😁

[Afeez Kay]

7 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

The S18 in @Marty Backe red.

 

@Rehab1 Can you make the rim dark grey? Thanks

[UniVehje]

3 hours ago, Rywokast said:

am i missing something, i was under the impression it was only a good idea to switch to 21700 in something with adequate space to be able to squeeze in a little more batteries in that provided space.. but this euc was designed around the usage of 21700s...... so why not put in a little more and make it a tiny bit bigger or go with 18650s?

You cannot really market a new wheel anymore if it doesn't have 21700 batteries. It has become a number on spec sheet that compares as better than 18650. It is now a "known fact" that 21700 is better, no matter what version. I don't really know if 18650s would be better or not in this case, but I doubt that 21700s somehow magically make wheels better. 

[UniVehje]

4 hours ago, Eucenduro said:

So ok 3p but why they put 2.200w?? 1.500w is enought for these 3p. 

Why would it be better to source a new motor that is rated to sustain less power for long periods? 

I think the problem is more in the marketing and how people interpret the specs. Motor watt rating doesn't tell the whole story about the wheel's power. Right now the general assumption is that S18 is more powerful than v11 because it's 2200W vs 2000W rated motor. But what you are saying is that the V11 with 4p battery is actually more powerful and the S18 cannot safely utilise all that the 2200W rated motor could provide on a wheel with bigger battery. 

Maybe we should start to think about motor power more as a combination of battery (p-number) and size of magnets. And volts matter only if you need to reach higher rpm. Motor's rated watt number should just be enough to sustain long periods of uphills but otherwise the peak number is more important. Am I correct?

[Eucenduro]

1 hour ago, buell47 said:

16X = 6p x 10A =60A

S18 =3p x 15A = 45A

S18= LG 10A It is confirm Bro. 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Eucenduro

[Eucenduro]

17 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Why would it be better to source a new motor that is rated to sustain less power for long periods? 

I think the problem is more in the marketing and how people interpret the specs. Motor watt rating doesn't tell the whole story about the wheel's power. Right now the general assumption is that S18 is more powerful than v11 because it's 2200W vs 2000W rated motor. But what you are saying is that the V11 with 4p battery is actually more powerful and the S18 cannot safely utilise all that the 2200W rated motor could provide on a wheel with bigger battery. 

Maybe we should start to think about motor power more as a combination of battery (p-number) and size of magnets. And volts matter only if you need to reach higher rpm. Motor's rated watt number should just be enough to sustain long periods of uphills but otherwise the peak number is more important. Am I correct?

Yessss Bro 👏👏👏👏 thats is.

[Eucenduro]

1 hour ago, buell47 said:

The 16X has 6p, not 4p. 2 x battery with 3p = 6p

Ok!! I was saying that 16x, msx, v10, and v11 have more than 3p. So thats why s18 Will be a beginners/intermediate wheel. But hace a top price. All is marketing they say that has a 2.200w... And the people think s18 = 16x but not true. 3p vs 6p... You know!!! 

Kingsong need to change that!!! Ks you need to listen the drivers and be honest. This wheel never be a top wheel, and the problem is the p number!!! Change that, please ks

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

8 hours ago, Eucenduro said:

5000mah LG
3p battery support 1.200w motor and they put 2200w
15000mah
15a X 74v = 1110 wh ks s18

 

21 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

S18= LG 10A It is confirm Bro. 

You said it has 15A

[Eucenduro]

20 minutes ago, buell47 said:

 

You said it has 15A

The battery is this one LG M50T 

https://secondlifestorage.com/showthread.php?tid=7822

So is 10a you can read here about that.

LG M50T can be marked as a good 4950mAh / 10A cell and many sellers list it as a 10A cell, not a 15A one.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Eucenduro