King Song S18 Discussion

[Unventor]

Just now, Stillhart said:

I realize you're using potholes just as an example, but is it worth considering that the suspension may eliminate this particular danger?  Perhaps that's why they figured they could get away with the smaller p-ness?

It might mitigate it but elimination it, I do think so. 

Another thing when wheel isn't in contact with ground and push out of balance it would speed up. An ideal suspension would meet ground contact. But this isn't car suspension and we don't have same weight. So despite theatrical it could give new issues with cutouts because people are pushing harder not feeling the bumps as hard. 

Now this is just me speculating, but I have no intention to go as a bat out of hell on this anytime soon. 

But on my daily commute this would be very nice and when going shopping with weight on my back. 

[Unventor]

Just now, mkygod said:

Any Akira fans here?

Ohh that is my company's logo type. 

[.....]

I just wanna be able to cruise at 28mph and still lean into doing 30mph, just like i can on my 18L. Having a little MORE torque to climb hills without having to input so much lean, would be nice. IN the end, I am too busy riding my wheel and enjoying the other things in life, to be an expert on the exact current state of my wheel batteries, the exact speed Im going, the exact amount of grade Im climbing, the exact temp of my motor, the exact weight of my body, the exact tire pressure, the exact amount of traction, the exact wind speed,  and all the other EXACT calculations I need to properly decide how much instant power i have left and if i can safely accelerate or stop. Aside from basic and generic info, I wont  have any of these exacts specs while in motion anyhow. So, the brains of it all, falls on Kingsong. I have to assume they are more aware of all of these factors and will protect me from myself and my own ignorance, just as they have with the beeps and throttling on my 18L. Now im being told that with 3p batteries(im just a parrot i dont know), Kingsong will have to cripple my wheel to perform much LESS than I can on my beloved 18L, or it will become dangerous. AS for safety, as long as they cater the speeds and beeps to the newer specs, i guess it will be just as safe? Of course, this 3p thing makes me think that to stay safe, the performance will HAVE to be lower and for a lesser range. Expensive dice roll to just buy it and find out. Again, my faith has to be in the fact that Kingsong will protect me from ALL the variables I am NOT being paid to think about on a ride.

 

  

37 minutes ago, Unventor said:

But on my daily commute this would be very nice and when going shopping with weight on my back. 

 

Shop light or youll have to pump more air in it..      I can see it now...   "I dont understand bob, ever since thanksgiving, I've had to put more air in my shock.."

Now if i could just get my pesky list of questions for Jack answered and not avoided...Somebody at KS should address this battery issue with some cold hard comparative data. Transparency is key... My money doesnt HAVE to stay with KS, and once i jump brands, I sometimes stay gone. If they don't have the answers.. that fact alone speaks volumes. If they have the answers but would rather not say... more volumes. If your electrician can't tell you what frequency your electricity is, how safe do you feel when he designs your home power system? Surely someone here has thought about building a testing station for cutout power and temps? Well, aside from putting your face up as the testing device. Treadmill anyone?

Maybe the $14k inno model will show us what can REALLY be done with tech, once that pesky sales price is not the primary consideration.. I'll toss another $1k at the sks18 price if it would put another $600 worth of tech into it AND they can show where it went... and finish off that headlight hole! Its almost like they just decided that the front end of the device won't be looked at. The view from the back is always better.... i get it.

Edited April 12, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Issah]

I have pre-ordered this wheel, set for production in June. I currently own a Gotway MSX 84v, and while the battery size is smaller, I already don't ever really ride my MSX out of charge in a single trip. My decision to get on this early was mostly that I just want to experience the suspension. I want a more convenient wheel as well, but let's not lie. I wanna know what this is about, and by now I expect the first batch of wheels to be well made. 

[Jon Stern]

37 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Ohh that is my company's logo type. 

What do you mean? You work for Canon or Citizen, or the typeface in one of those logos is the same as used in your company's logo?

[Asphalt]

Great discussion about batteries - I’ve certainly learned a few things!

It appears to me that 3p in the KS-S18, isn’t inherently unsafe (the V8 is only 2p), but will likely result in Kingsong employing a firmware with less aggressive acceleration curves to account for the reduced ability of the battery packs to handle current spikes. We should probably also expect speed throttling to start at 50% battery or earlier.

This would be inline with Kuji’s video riding the beeps and his comment about the S18 being a beginner/intermediate wheel and not to expect 16X performance.

Performance of the S18 will likely be closer to the less popular KS-16XS, the 777Wh version of the KS-16X. They both use a motor with the same 3-cm wide magnets, but the 16XS motor is rated only 2000W vs the 16X 2200W. My guess is that they’re the same motor, but rebadged for marketing purposes. The big difference between the two are the number of mosfets 6 vs 12, the control board, firmware, and the battery pack 777Wh in 20s3p vs 1554Wh in 20s6p.

If anyone has seen reviews on the 16XS, it could give us some insight into how Kingsong will handle 3p configuration performance.

This gives me some hope that there might be a high-performance 2220Wh KS-S18XL in the future. Do you think there’s room to double the width of the battery packs?

[RockyTop]

I Assume that Kingsong is using the same 2200 watt motor on the 16X, 18XL and S18. 

The KS16X is said to have problems with cut outs close to 30 mph. The reason for this is that the top RPM for the motor (balanced emf) is to close to the actual  rpm at 30 mph. The closer the motor is to a balanced emf the less potential torque is available.

Think about it this way. If you were on foot you could exert more force on a parked car than a car that was moving 1 mph slower than you can run. It does not matter how hard you can push if the object you are trying to push is moving faster than you can run. (amperage becomes useless)

The KS18XL and s18 have a larger diameter tire. The top speed is faster at the same RPM. So now you can run 5 mph faster giving you the ability to push harder on that car that is now going 6 mph slower than you can run. 

Summery: The S18 should be fine. P does matter, but the larger batteries make up for most of the lack of P. ( I still wish it had the 2000 watt motor) 

[mkygod]

Choose your color..

[Stillhart]

Orange and black all day, er'ry day.  Go Giants!

[Unventor]

I like the way you work with colours @mkygod. I am not fond of black. Putting colour on improves the look imo.

Now we are all assuming the motor if S18 is same as 16X/18LH as it is rated same power in watts. But it could be optimized differently. This is the problem with a paper spec. There are so much more to the feel and sensation and behaviour. 

The sad thing here is the long wait to release.

[Unventor]

57 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

What do you mean? You work for Canon or Citizen, or the typeface in one of those logos is the same as used in your company's logo?

Aye I work at Canon. 

But let's not sidestep the thread. 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Unventor

[jonm42]

red red red red red red red. RED.

[Camenbert]

Beautiful job mkygod !

KS should look at the car industry and sell sticker set to personalize our wheels.

Red or Blue Turquoise, always gold wheel/suspension

[jonm42]

with the bodywork the shape it is, perhaps one of these (more than one?) would be appropriate: https://www.lightmodehelmets.com. For the wheel.

Edited April 13, 2020 by jonm42

[.....]

8 minutes ago, jonm42 said:

with the bodywork the shape it is, perhaps one of these (more than one?) would be appropriate: https://www.lightmodehelmets.com. For the wheel.

Man those are cool and damn expensive! You KNOW there will be led mods liek crazy to light up that open shell area from inside...

I wanna see someone do a suspension assisted preloaded hop up a tall curb! Im more versed in oiled suspension, do minimal air shocks also typically provide a preloaded bounce back like a motocross suspension does? I see a missed oportunity if KS isnt using those rear tubes to provide spring support and interchangeable rates, to assist that rear shock in sag and load handling. Once a warranty is destroyed, I can foresee a LOT of tinkering in the euc community otw.

Edited April 13, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[bbulkow]

Hey, I think this wheel was meant for me.... I got one question.

Will it allow me to ride longer without pain?

All y'all hardcore peeps here think nothing of 20 miles, 30 miles, 40 miles at a stretch. Good for you.

For me --- my ankles hurt, my shins hurt, then they start seizing up, I'm at risk of falling. I can't use 20 miles range. I'm a bigger guy, closer to 230lbs and down to 220 on a good season, ( that is, 100kg++ for those of you in the actual world ), and I just hurt after 5 miles. I put more miles on, I get stronger and stronger, if I'm up on my strength training workouts its better, if I'm at the lower side of my weight range, it's better, but... 10 miles is a stretch, and my commute is a bit over 4 miles. Sometimes I take my wheel on the train, and up to the higher seats on the train, and I prefer compact and light --- that is, heavy enough for solid 30mph cruising ( that's what I measure at, GPS style, 28 to 30 is my speed when I've got clear asphalt ahead 0), and solid enough that I'm not going to bend the wheel hopping the kerb ( did that to a v8, not substantial enough ).

I am sure Kuji and whoever don't have this problem.... but I am very happy with my K18L because it's within the range I need, and when I'm hauling it up three flights of stairs ( my work has had a broken elevator for at least a year now ), I'm in less pain. I don't want a 55lb wheel.

If 1100 is a "joke", I'm not laughing. I like the 45lb weight, and I like rolling to about 30mph top speed. I don't go faster, there are too many bumps and imperfections on my route. Mostly where trees have gotten under the road and create seam which would really spill you at 30++. There is an "iron triangle" of range and weight ( and price ), and nothing other than a new battery chemistry will get us out, and until that day, I think 1100 is a pretty good size. Real-world 25 miles using 80% charge and not hitting the low end where "cripple mode" takes over.

ANYWAY!

I want to know if this wheel helps "foot fatigue" for riders such as self who are prone to that, and if there are fewer chances of spilling due to the suspension (ie, safety).

I think I will wait a bit and not preorder. My 18L is doing a good job, and I don't know if I would see takers on the aftermarket....

[Phong Vu]

4 minutes ago, bbulkow said:

My 18L is doing a good job, and I don't know if I would see takers on the aftermarket....

18L is still a fine wheel.
In fact, if I found a used 18L with good price near by, I would buy it to ride while waiting for S18 and V11 hit markets. (and sell if after afterwards).

[Rywokast]

8 minutes ago, bbulkow said:

Hey, I think this wheel was meant for me.... I got one question.

Will it allow me to ride longer without pain?

All y'all hardcore peeps here think nothing of 20 miles, 30 miles, 40 miles at a stretch. Good for you.

For me --- my ankles hurt, my shins hurt, then they start seizing up, I'm at risk of falling. I can't use 20 miles range. I'm a bigger guy, closer to 230lbs and down to 220 on a good season, ( that is, 100kg++ for those of you in the actual world ), and I just hurt after 5 miles. I put more miles on, I get stronger and stronger, if I'm up on my strength training workouts its better, if I'm at the lower side of my weight range, it's better, but... 10 miles is a stretch, and my commute is a bit over 4 miles. Sometimes I take my wheel on the train, and up to the higher seats on the train, and I prefer compact and light --- that is, heavy enough for solid 30mph cruising ( that's what I measure at, GPS style, 28 to 30 is my speed when I've got clear asphalt ahead 0), and solid enough that I'm not going to bend the wheel hopping the kerb ( did that to a v8, not substantial enough ).

I am sure Kuji and whoever don't have this problem.... but I am very happy with my K18L because it's within the range I need, and when I'm hauling it up three flights of stairs ( my work has had a broken elevator for at least a year now ), I'm in less pain. I don't want a 55lb wheel.

If 1100 is a "joke", I'm not laughing. I like the 45lb weight, and I like rolling to about 30mph top speed. I don't go faster, there are too many bumps and imperfections on my route. Mostly where trees have gotten under the road and create seam which would really spill you at 30++. There is an "iron triangle" of range and weight ( and price ), and nothing other than a new battery chemistry will get us out, and until that day, I think 1100 is a pretty good size. Real-world 25 miles using 80% charge and not hitting the low end where "cripple mode" takes over.

ANYWAY!

I want to know if this wheel helps "foot fatigue" for riders such as self who are prone to that, and if there are fewer chances of spilling due to the suspension (ie, safety).

I think I will wait a bit and not preorder. My 18L is doing a good job, and I don't know if I would see takers on the aftermarket....

im not so sure this would help at all with foot fatigue.. in fact from my observations it might be the opposite.. im one of the people who loves to go on extremely long rides and it takes a severe pedal angle, or a ridiculous time non stop on the euc to start to get sore ankles.. but at least for me, my feet will get fatigued much easier on smooth flat than on winding, varied terrain.. because you know, theyre moving lol.. i find they only start to get a bit annoyed when im on a very long straight stretch with hardly any bumps.. now on the other hand, knees and back if they get sore for you thats where i can see shocks helping immensely..

this is just my personal experience, and doesnt mean it wont be different for other riders.. but thats how i feel 

[Rywokast]

2 minutes ago, Phong Vu said:

18L is still a fine wheel.
In fact, if I found a used 18L with good price near by, I would buy it to ride while waiting for S18 and V11 hit markets. (and sell if after afterwards).

resale value on eucs is already terrible... after another new release.. even worse, be prepared to take a huge hit even if its in perfect condition lol

[Phong Vu]

7 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

resale value on eucs is already terrible... after another new release.. even worse, be prepared to take a huge hit even if its in perfect condition lol

New 18L is $1500 isn't it?
So a good used one now is $1200, $1300?
And you think nobody will buy 18L at $1100 after S18 hit market?
S18 is $1999, not exactly a replacement for 18L tho

That's what I'm thinking, might be totally naive  

[Rywokast]

8 minutes ago, Phong Vu said:

New 18L is $1500 isn't it?
So a good used one now is $1200, $1300?
And you think nobody will buy 18L at $1100 after S18 hit market?
S18 is $1999, not exactly a replacement for 18L tho

That's what I'm thinking, might be totally naive  

well 1600 i think is the US price.. and in europe theres high taxes the dealers charge quite a but more.. regardless 2/3 $ is what you would normally get in perfect condition with low km.. but after a new wheel is released, naturally there will be more people selling older wheels so saturation and less people even looking at the older wheels.. thats just how it works unfortunately.. and then you get snobs like me who would never buy anything used lol.. i think you would be very hard pressed to sell it even for 1000.. keep in mind, you always lose out on shipping costs as well to you and from you, you will have to throw that shipping cost in the garbage lol so after everything is said and done, unless youre really lucky and got it shipped to you for free and found someone locally to buy.. thats like 1/2 of the cost you just lost (because you also have to pay taxes when you buy new, but obviously dont get it back when you sell used)

Edited April 13, 2020 by Rywokast

[.....]

I'll buy a good used 18L for $1k...  I'll take it today... shipped to SE USA. Even IF the new suspension wheels prove vastly superior, it will be a while before we know. I can't foresee the value of an 18L (or the likes) to drop too much too soon, as they fill a need  and their value isnt just because they are so rare.

Edited April 13, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Rywokast]

2 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I'll buy a good used 18L for $1k...  I'll take it today... shipped to SE USA.

two is better than one lol

[Stillhart]

I'd be all over a used 18L for $1k.

[Rywokast]

5 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

I'd be all over a used 18L for $1k.

prepare your wallet because youre probably gonna see a lot of them in the coming months lol