King Song S18 Discussion

[mrelwood]

@Issah, I have a few clarifying questions for you:

17 minutes ago, Issah said:

The main difference in the V11 and S18's Suspensions, are that on the V11, the pedals areThe only thing pushing down on the suspension. It's purely for comfort, and will in my opinion, not perform as well as the S18's because of how the wheel assembly, with batteries and all will all be moving up and down as you move over bumps in the road or terrain.
On the S18, the suspension carries the weight of all the batteries, leaving the wheel the only part actively  travelling up and down as it travels over bumps.

How big is the difference in this unsprung weight? And what exactly is the difference in riding experience between a "well" and a "not so well" functioning EUC suspension? Is the difference noticeable, or relevant when comparing to wheels with no suspension at all?

17 minutes ago, Issah said:

The effectiveness and comfort of suspension relies entirely on how  effectively it can absorb bumps while transferring as little energy as possible to the rider, or in the case of a car, the chassis.

More contact with the ground doesn't at all necessary translate to less energy transferred to the car/rider. It mostly improves friction.

How much does the difference in the unsprung weight of an EUC affect the total energy transfer to the rider?

[Patton250]

One thing I have noticed is there are a lot more experts here on this forum then there are in the factories of IM and KS 

[Unventor]

12 hours ago, Flying W said:

Is it confirmed that the V11 has rebound adjustability? 

I am excited to see inmotion make such a leap into the top end of the market, and I'm equally excited to see king what is basically a mnt

I have not seen any comments on their construction on any details. But I have been told video are in production as we wait. 

There are many ways to measure top end in market. Like sales/profit/units/distance on a charge/max speed/ distance covered over time (considering throttling and discharge span)/low failure report/rider happiness.....

What I trying to people are way too focused on "performance" aka max speed. Most rides are not at top speed and not past 50kmh....

Now I am not just talking the V11 here but also S18. I am sure that once all the hysteria about top speed and battery capacity has died down and we see wheels (real customer production units) then we will have some that are very happy, other that expect way too much of where we are in EUC technology, and of course those in between.

[Unventor]

7 hours ago, SamSuffit said:

For tech enthusiasts, here is the analysis of the KS S18 suspension system (not official, based on hypothesis)

Source french forum for thanking the author: https://www.espritroue.fr/topic/12149-nouvelle-kingsong-2020-la-s18/?do=findComment&comment=238656

Quite mesmerizing, but it raises some additional questions on the balance of the wheel: Is it front heavy? (Consequence: the wheel will tend to accelerate on its own, quite dangerous)

Really...you got to be kidding. 

Let's try to keep us to facts before rumours fires get out of control.

And I mean this on both S18 and V11. These kind of speculation do not benefit anyone. Not riders nor manufactor nor sellers. 

[Patton250]

8 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Really...you got to be kidding. 

Let's try to keep us to facts before rumours fires get out of control.

And I mean this on both S18 and V11. These kind of speculation do not benefit anyone. Not riders nor manufactor nor sellers. 

Thank you. 

[davinche]

4 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Really...you got to be kidding. 

Let's try to keep us to facts before rumours fires get out of control.

And I mean this on both S18 and V11. These kind of speculation do not benefit anyone. Not riders nor manufactor nor sellers. 

When people talk about what's known (battery, wattage, motor, etc) you call it hysteria... but when people try to talk about the suspension, they shouldn't because they have to try to "keep to facts"? I'm not quite sure what kind of discussion you're advocating for given that besides the specs/numbers, everything is speculation.

 

I do think the OPs post about the wheel being front heavy is a bit poorly worded - he should not have made it sound like he was asserting that the S18 is front heavy (given that we don't exactly know the layout of the wheel) and thereby implying that it could be dangerous.

 

[travsformation]

Reading this thread one would hardly guess that an exciting new wheel with a much-anticipated feature is being released.... 

[SamSuffit]

KS Fanboys in the house!

I just asked a question. I did not say it is front heavy. And I said a possible consequence if it is. I am not saying I know the truth. I am not saying I know better than KS engineers.

Why does it have to be a drama? or maybe for entertainment value?

[RockyTop]

59 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

One thing I have noticed is there are a lot more experts here on this forum then there are in the factories of IM and KS 

OK !! Make way!! The real expert is here!! 
We won’t know until after they have been tested by the general population. 
Both systems have great potential that can be destroyed by bad implementation. 

I am cheering for the S18 but see how the direct 1:1 ratio on the V11 could be a positive thing. 

[davinche]

14 minutes ago, SamSuffit said:

KS Fanboys in the house!

I just asked a question. I did not say it is front heavy. And I said a possible consequence if it is. I am not saying I know the truth. I am not saying I know better than KS engineers.

Why does it have to be a drama? or maybe for entertainment value?

Well like I said... it could've been worded better... because your comment made at least a couple of assumptions without any basis.

1) Why would you think the wheel might be front heavy? The only reason to think that way is by looking at the battery configuration from the animation. But again we don't really know the actual layout of the wheel.
2) Even if the battery by themselves (independent of the rest of the frame) would equate to being front heavy, why would you think that the wheel in its entirety would be front heavy? In other words, even if the battery layout is "front heavy" (due to the clear imbalance  in cell distribution between the front and the back in the animation), there is no reason to think that the wheel itself is front heavy (KS must have compensated for it when building their wheel).

So basically because of 1) and 2), you're getting flamed for the post (even though technically you didn't say anything inherently wrong).

Edited April 16, 2020 by davinche

[Stillhart]

9 minutes ago, SamSuffit said:

KS Fanboys in the house!

I just asked a question. I did not say it is front heavy. And I said a possible consequence if it is. I am not saying I know the truth. I am not saying I know better than KS engineers.

Why does it have to be a drama? or maybe for entertainment value?

Why are you assuming that one has to be biased to think that KS wouldn't allow such an obvious problem to go to production?  I'm guessing you're just projecting...

[travsformation]

9 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

I am cheering for the S18 but see how the direct 1:1 ratio on the V11 could be a positive thing. 

I'm waiting for the S18XL 

[Stillhart]

4 minutes ago, davinche said:

Well like I said... it could've been worded better... because your comment made at least a couple of assumptions without any basis.

1) Why would you think the wheel might be front heavy? The only reason to think that way is by looking at the battery configuration from the animation. But again we don't really know the actual layout of the wheel.
2) Even if the battery by themselves (independent of the rest of the frame) would equate to being front heavy, why would you think that the wheel in its entirety would be front heavy? In other words, even if the battery layout is "front heavy" (due to the clear imbalance  in cell distribution between the front and the back in the animation), there is no reason to think that the wheel itself is front heavy (KS must have compensated for it when building their wheel).

So basically because of 1) and 2), you're getting flamed for the post (even though technically you didn't say anything inherently wrong).

You left out #3:  He's asserting that if it's front-heavy, then it will be dangerous due to unintended acceleration. 

And #4:  Somehow KS didn't notice that the wheel is dangerously flawed.

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, Patton250 said:

One thing I have noticed is there are a lot more experts here on this forum then there are in the factories of IM and KS 

 

 

[davinche]

1 minute ago, Stillhart said:

You left out #3:  He's asserting that if it's front-heavy, then it will be dangerous due to unintended acceleration. 

And #4:  Somehow KS didn't notice that the wheel is dangerously flawed.

I didn't leave it out: it's in 2)

[SamSuffit]

Just now, Stillhart said:

You left out #3:  He's asserting that if it's front-heavy, then it will be dangerous due to unintended acceleration. 

And #4:  Somehow KS didn't notice that the wheel is dangerously flawed.

Read carefully: I just asked a question, there is not any assertion on the balance of the wheel. However due to the configuration, the battery seems to be more on the front. So the weight might be more on the front. So maybe, if I was more careful with my question, it should have been: how did KS counterbalanced it? By putting more weight behind? by fine tuning the firmware? And it is not a rhetorical question, I'm not an engineer, so i am wondering.

Anyway I thought a forum was a place to exchange ideas, discuss, speculate. If everybody has to weight extremely carefully each sentence, it is not encouraging exchange.

[Unventor]

46 minutes ago, davinche said:

When people talk about what's known (battery, wattage, motor, etc) you call it hysteria... but when people try to talk about the suspension, they shouldn't because they have to try to "keep to facts"? I'm not quite sure what kind of discussion you're advocating for given that besides the specs/numbers, everything is speculation.

 

I do think the OPs post about the wheel being front heavy is a bit poorly worded - he should not have made it sound like he was asserting that the S18 is front heavy (given that we don't exactly know the layout of the wheel) and thereby implying that it could be dangerous.

 

Implying is one thing but knowing and experienced himself a totally different matter. What post we have seen so far is not a production batch at all. Passing judgement on this is nothing but speculation/rumours/guess and as a result miss leading to a point that a brand decided to hold back on the forum. 

There is constructive feedback and the biased opinions and misleading ideas mixed all together in a big pot here lately. 

Sometimes people need to lean back a bit an be patience. Since this didn't happen (again) there is very little point for them to engage here.

So I can only refer back to my earlier post, and say this:

What do you as a poster think an manufactor will think look at this? What did expect to happen? We are still 4-6 week away from first product delivery.

Will the manufactor debate further on solutions and gauge public interest between options or will they close their communication channel to here?

Guess what happened......

[mike_bike_kite]

17 minutes ago, SamSuffit said:

So maybe, if I was more careful with my question, it should have been: how did KS counterbalanced it? By putting more weight behind? by fine tuning the firmware? And it is not a rhetorical question, I'm not an engineer, so i am wondering.

My guess is the larger front battery would be counterbalanced the weight of the suspension and perhaps moving the smaller rear battery just a little further back from the centre of the wheel. It certainly wouldn't be done in firmware as that would just be a waste of power. It would have to be balanced otherwise it would be difficult to trolley the wheel. 

[Unventor]

42 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

Why are you assuming that one has to be biased to think that KS wouldn't allow such an obvious problem to go to production?  I'm guessing you're just projecting...

I really suggest to calm down speculation/rumours/guess and let both brand showcase their product when they are ready to do so. 

If not I could see predemo being cancelled. Should this happen should any rider benefit from this?

Edited April 16, 2020 by Unventor

[SamSuffit]

4 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I really suggest to calm down speculation/rumours/guess and let both brand showcase their product when they are read to do so. 

If not I could see predemo being cancelled. Should this happen should any rider benefit from this?

I only started my EUC journey 1,5 year ago so I don't have the whole history. But has it ever happen that an demo has been cancelled due to forum rumors?

On what do you base this? Or is it just you speculating? Please stop rumors! (it was so tempting....just kidding )

[null]

53 minutes ago, Unventor said:

IWhat do you as a poster think an manufactor will think look at this? What did expect to happen? We are still 4-6 week away from first product delivery.
Will the manufactor debate further on solutions and gauge public interest between options or will they close their communication channel to here?
Guess what happened......

Manufacturers are using public social networks for buzz and free exposure, the mess is part of the price IMO.
No reason people should refrain from speculating, this is a AFAIK a public forum, not KS private channel.

I don't think SamSuffits was intentionally trolling or gratuitously attacking. (which yes we've had quite a lot of here)

Edited April 16, 2020 by null

[davinche]

29 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Passing judgement on this is nothing but speculation/rumours/guess and as a result miss leading to a point that a brand decided to hold back on the forum.

Is KingSong holding back? One would think that the most effective way to dissolve rumors / wrong speculations is to disclose what is factual. If KS decided to hold back because people are enthusiastic about their product and therefore speculating, that is the wrong move IMO.

29 minutes ago, Unventor said:

There is constructive feedback and the biased opinions and misleading ideas mixed all together in a big pot here lately. 

Sometimes people need to lean back a bit an be patience. Since this didn't happen (again) there is very little point for them to engage here.

There's a matter of intent to consider. If people are here to purposely mislead/ misinform, then yes they should not be engaging here. But there's also a lot of misinformation / lack of understanding of things where this forum serves as a good place to educate / dispel misinformation.

Take for example just conceptually how suspensions work. People without the theoretical understanding of how those types of suspensions worked were criticizing Kujis video - saying how "it doesn't look like it's doing much", "it doesn't travel that much". I don't think these people are malicious, just misinformed. By allowing this discussion to take place, allows for people who are more informed to post/educate the community. This by definition is progress and helps move the community forward IMO.

So back to your point, while I don't think the OPs post about suspension was well worded, I don't think it is right to assume malice. The best approach IMO with regards to public discourse is Hanlon's razor:

> "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

Edited April 16, 2020 by davinche
grammar

[xorbe]

3 hours ago, Issah said:

I feel like the V11's system is more a top-mounted cushion, whereas the S18's is an actual "Suspension."

I wanted to say that earlier, but I'd rather wait and hear from people that get to ride both final products. Either one could be golden or annoying, after the sum of parts and specific geometry.  The S18 does resemble an actual suspension more than the V11, but will that matter at the end of the day for an EUC.

I'd get the S18 based on looks and weight.  I don't ride fast or far, so ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  I think it's a little expensive, that DNM shock is not expensive in bulk orders, and the battery isn't huge.  There's no two ways about it, MSP is more wheel for the money for sure.

Edited April 16, 2020 by xorbe

[Unventor]

20 minutes ago, xorbe said:

I wanted to say that earlier, but I'd rather wait and hear from people that get to ride both final products. Either one could be golden or annoying, after the sum of parts and specific geometry.  The S18 does resemble an actual suspension more than the V11, but will that matter at the end of the day for an EUC.

I'd get the S18 based on looks and weight.  I don't ride fast or far, so ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  I think it's a little expensive, that DNM shock is not expensive in bulk orders, and the battery isn't huge.  There's no two ways about it, MSP is more wheel for the money for sure.

It is a different wheel for the money.

I don't ride past 40kmh so top speed of MSP how very little value to me.

I have a serious bad knee (bone hit bone on bump impact) so I ride slightly less inflated tire for assisting in suspension that my knee can delivery all the time. I also adapted a riding still where I ride a little tip toed so my ankles can compensate for what my knee doesn't handle.

To me suspension will be a very welcoming feature. This can increase the range I can ride as my knee is not taking the same beating. 

So more wheel for the money depends on perspective. But for some an MSP will be a great choice.  For me not so much. 

But what I really appreciate with you post, let sit back and see what the can do once they are closer to a delivery date. On this I can only give  as I full agreed. 

I however have waited for this ever since my rides was longer that 10km. So I sort of removed my one hand I were sitting one. And whoops 1 pics V11 pre-ordered. 😊

It could have been KS S18 too. But not this time. 1 short answer though to this...we have a magical thing where I live called rain....

[mike_bike_kite]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

How big is the difference in this unsprung weight?

In this thread Jason broke down the parts of an EUC by weight for a KS16 by percentage and I think it's fair to assume the numbers would be similar in most other wheels. If only the wheel and motor are unsprung on the S18 then that means 50% of the overall weight is unsprung (50% of 22Kg is 11kg). If only the pedals and hangers are sprung on the V11 then that means 90% of the V11 is unsprung (90% of 27Kg is 24Kg). Normally less unsprung weight is better. It goes without saying that this is just an estimated guess and it's only including the weight of the wheel and not the rider.