King Song S18 Discussion

[mike_bike_kite]

You could see the suspension was better in the videos of the S18. When the V11 dropped of the curb, the rider had to bend his knees aggressively to cushion the impact and still the suspension bottomed out. Having decent suspension on a wheel may well translate into better safety and more range as the wheel won't need as much extra power to lift the rider over bumps or out of pot holes. Having 30% more battery is fine but also remember the V11 weighs 28Kg 27Kg (I believe only the Monster is heavier) so I'm not sure that will translate to 30% more range. Also remember if you plan on taking the V11 up a staircase or lifting it into the back of a pickup then I'd start getting into shape now. People here go on endlessly about speed and range but my guess is that most people stay around 20mph on their wheels and rarely go over 10 miles. I think these wheels will do fine. I do see some fascinating comparison videos coming in the future though.

Edited April 16, 2020 by mike_bike_kite
corrected weight

[Asphalt]

I'm curious about the use-cases for the suspension-lock feature of the V11.

In mountain biking, you'd lock the suspension for better power transfer when pedalling. I wonder how much of a difference it will make to battery range, if any?

I suppose it's a nice feature to have to get different riding "feels", but I assume most riders will prefer having a consistent feeling wheel.

Another use-case may be when carrying the wheel by the handle. I wonder if the suspension lock will make it easier to carry so you don't have a bobbing wheel as you walk up stairs?

Any other use-cases you can think of?

[davinche]

39 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

You could see the suspension was better in the videos of the S18. When the V11 dropped of the curb, the rider had to bend his knees aggressively to cushion the impact and still the suspension bottomed out.

Just to be clear...there's really no way to tell which suspension is better without knowing what settings they were adjusted at.

ie: inmotion could have had the compression fully open (no damping) hence bottoming out.

[Phong Vu]

29 minutes ago, Asphalt said:

I wonder if the suspension lock will make it easier to carry so you don't have a bobbing wheel as you walk up stairs?

I would be very worry about this suspension if it start to move by itself with just walking up/down movement

Edited April 15, 2020 by Phong Vu

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, Asphalt said:

Another use-case may be when carrying the wheel by the handle. I wonder if the suspension lock will make it easier to carry so you don't have a bobbing wheel as you walk up stairs?

You do know this wheel weighs 28Kg? I suspect that won't be anybodies use case.

1 hour ago, davinche said:

Just to be clear...there's really no way to tell which suspension is better without knowing what settings they were adjusted at.

ie: inmotion could have had the compression fully open (no damping) hence bottoming out.

It was their video to show off their suspension. If they couldn't work out how to set it up correctly then that doesn't leave much hope for us.

[davinche]

17 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

You do know this wheel weighs 28Kg? I suspect that won't be anybodies use case.

It was their video to show off their suspension. If they couldn't work out how to set it up correctly then that doesn't leave much hope for us.

Well not exactly right? It depends on how knowledgeable people are with regards to suspensions. People criticized Kujis video; saying how the suspension doesn't seem to effective, how the suspension didn't travel much relative to what they described (100mm or whatever).

So there's at least 2 ways of demonstrating the suspension:

1) Show how a suspension is supposed to work for the general case (should not travel the full distance or "bottom out") - eg: kujis video

2) Show how much the suspension can travel - eg: inmotions video

Both of these cases can be criticized - but not all criticism is just.

So basically what I'm trying to say is, it's hard to know anything without knowing the parameters used in these "demos".

[Asphalt]

14 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

You do know this wheel weighs 28Kg? I suspect that won't be anybodies use case.

Bro, do you even lift? 

I'm buying this because kettle bells are sold out. 

V11 = 28kg
S18 = 22kg

Good to have both weights. 

[.....]

2 hours ago, Asphalt said:

Bro, do you even lift? 

I'm buying this because kettle bells are sold out. 

V11 = 28kg
S18 = 22kg

Good to have both weights. 

I have a personal limit of 50lbs. I am but 42 and many here are older. Don't be surprised that these kind of weights ARE a consideration for a lot of us. I recall when i could easily toss around excessive weight well over 100lbs. I was young and spent my living doing hard blue color work. That exact work is WHY I can no longer safely lift excesses of 50lbs. As I age, I imagine other things will make 50lbs seem even worse.  Every pound counts on these wheels, as we near what I want to carry.

As for suspensions.. obviously people will get different results. Terrain, style, personal weight, temperatures, speed, maintenance, so many things. I would assume that both brands/types of suspension will be hard pressed to work great for 80lb AND 240lb riders on stock setup. This is where the fun is: setting up the suspension to make it work to best suit your intended style and weight. I know that EVERY suspension as a set of compromises. Perhaps Kuji likes a stiffer ride? Perhaps Inno wanted to show it as a more plush ride? Perhpas one IS superior to the other in stock form? Perhaps this becomes moot to me at least, as I doubt it will stay stock. In the end, someone has to try these things or noone gets to enjoy the fruits of development.

*fwiw, heavier people will more likely force the suspension to work harder, no matter what you do. I'd imagine the complaints of bottoming out will increase around thanksgiving. Adding  adjustment to accommodate more weight, will decrease ability to dampen lesser objects. Ask a horse, smaller jockeys workout easier. Itll be fun to compare the us market shock settings with the asian market settings.

Edited April 15, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Asphalt]

No doubt 28kg isn't an easy carry - it's even worse if it's bouncing because the suspension can't be locked.

Think dumbbell vs shake weight
 

Goodness this discussion just hit a new low 

[ZenRyder]

1 hour ago, Asphalt said:

Bro, do you even lift? 

I'm buying this because kettle bells are sold out. 

V11 = 28kg
S18 = 22kg

Good to have both weights. 

I just wanted to use this image since it's applicable to this discussion...  

 

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, Asphalt said:

Think dumbbell vs shake weight
 

Goodness this discussion just hit a new low 

Thanks for embedding those imagery neurons in my brain. 

[AtlasP]

With all the discussion of weight, I just weighed my Nikola+ at 57.5 pounds. So essentially the V11 weighs about the same as a Nikola+ (within ~2 pounds).

Edited April 16, 2020 by AtlasP

[mrelwood]

8 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

You could see the suspension was better in the videos of the S18. When the V11 dropped of the curb, the rider had to bend his knees aggressively to cushion the impact and still the suspension bottomed out.

I think you are talking about the one where the V11 is ridden down from about a one foot ledge. The first V11 video (vertical phone video) shows riding down an actual tall curb, and the rider descends incredibly smoothly from the higher plane to the lower one, with barely any knee bending. Whereas the S18 gets airborne even on a small speed bump, and Kuji’s feet are constantly bouncing up and down just from riding on a dirt road. I fail to comprehend how the S18 suspension looks better to anyone.

 Regarding the suspension bottoming out... There’s a video where a V11 proto is ridden down from a 2-3 foot ledge. The suspension of course bottoms out and the rider bends his knees a whole lot, but the suspension still does its job and the rider is greeted with a soft landing. Besides, my MSX “bottomed out” perhaps about 5 million times today. Not an issue.

 But we need to remember, we’ve only seen videos on prototypes of both wheels. They both have the exact same adjustments, and can probably be adjusted to quite similar suspension behavior. As long as both mechanisms work well in the first place, which is what I haven’t seen yet on the S18.

Quote

V11 weighs 28Kg

27 kg (from the first post in this thread).

Quote

so you don't have a bobbing wheel as you walk up stairs?

The suspension is adjusted to be able to carry a ~200lbs rider. When the rider is not on the wheel, there is quite a lot of force keeping the suspension in its most upright position. It won’t “bob”.

Edited April 16, 2020 by mrelwood

[UniVehje]

Where do you guys get that 28 kg figure? I’m seeing everywhere that it’s 27 kg (59.5 lb). 
 

Anyway, I can see suspension wars brewing. I’m sure the most heated topics in 2020 will be about which suspension system is better. There will be a sharp rise in the number of suspension experts here. Two different (soon three?) implementations is a fertile ground for debates. People will want to make it black and white. One has to be better than the other. 
 

Personally I think it’s too early to form strong opinions. But certainly fun to discuss. I predict this “unsprung mass” thing, while a relevant point in general, will end up being a moot point in our use case. There will probably be some more important differentiations. And maybe it’ll become like trolley handles, some are better than the others and you definitely want to have one, but it doesn’t really affect how enjoyable the ride is. 
And very likely reliability will be the key factor. From the videos I would predict more problems on the S18 version in the long run. 

Edited April 16, 2020 by UniVehje

[.....]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I think you are talking about the one where the V11 is ridden down from about a one foot ledge. The first V11 video (vertical phone video) shows riding down an actual tall curb, and the rider descends incredibly smoothly from the higher plane to the lower one, with barely any knee bending. Whereas the S18 gets airborne even on a small speed bump, and Kuji’s feet are constantly bouncing up and down just from riding on a dirt road. I fail to comprehend how the S18 suspension looks better to anyone.

 

Speed differences, rider preferences and I fail to see how anyone can assume one is 'better' than the other at this point. From a 'looks' standpoint, my opinion is the s18 is better. But of course, we aint just looking at these, we'll be riding them hopefully. Broken record around here...  Someone states one design is superior, then professes to not know much about it. Clearly we are basing what we prefer on mostly opinion and bias with a little video and millions of unknown factors in play. I hear wallets opening up all across the globe. Fun times, fun times.

Edited April 16, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Clearly we are basing what we prefer on mostly opinion and bias with a little video and millions of unknown factors in play.

This comment is much more of a fact than anything we “know” and speculate about either wheel!

[Flying W]

This kind of reminds me of KTM when they went to a link-less rear end. 

In the dirt bike world that took away one more tuning option from teams, and made their bikes a no go for short people like me who prefer longer dog bones to lower a bike over reducing travel. 

For us height doesnt matter and I doubt there will be different linkages available for tuning suspension behavior on these two wheels. 

Is it confirmed that the V11 has rebound adjustability? 

I am excited to see inmotion make such a leap into the top end of the market, and I'm equally excited to see king what is basically a mnt bike rear suspension system on a wheel. 

For me my next wheel needs to let me go on longer rides. I can make 30 miles on mostly flat ground but the average speed needs to be around 15mph (great site seeing but boring). I want to be able to go 30 miles at and not think about battery life, just ride as fast as I want and play on ride off shoots if I see something fun, or on a site are trip be able to go 50 miles. 

For those reasons and lack of gamble funds I'll have to let those first batch of suspended wheels entertain me through YouTube and this forum. 

Had the virus not sent a lot of us home i was ready to get a 1600wh class wheel but like @Rehab1's wife, mine too would throw heavy objects at me if I bought another wheel right now 

 

[Rehab1]

4 hours ago, Flying W said:

Had the virus not sent a lot of us home i was ready to get a 1600wh class wheel but like @Rehab1's wife, mine too would throw heavy objects at me if I bought another wheel right now 

So glad I’m not alone. IMHO purchasing a new EUC in these stressful times is an essential need.   I recommend purchasing a high quality EUC hazmat suit to protect yourself from flying objects. 
 

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Rehab1

[SamSuffit]

For tech enthusiasts, here is the analysis of the KS S18 suspension system (not official, based on hypothesis)

Source french forum for thanking the author: https://www.espritroue.fr/topic/12149-nouvelle-kingsong-2020-la-s18/?do=findComment&comment=238656

Quite mesmerizing, but it raises some additional questions on the balance of the wheel: Is it front heavy? (Consequence: the wheel will tend to accelerate on its own, quite dangerous)

Edited April 16, 2020 by SamSuffit

[Stillhart]

3 hours ago, SamSuffit said:

For tech enthusiasts, here is the analysis of the KS S18 suspension system (not official, based on hypothesis)

Source french forum for thanking the author: https://www.espritroue.fr/topic/12149-nouvelle-kingsong-2020-la-s18/?do=findComment&comment=238656

Quite mesmerizing, but it raises some additional questions on the balance of the wheel: Is it front heavy? (Consequence: the wheel will tend to accelerate on its own, quite dangerous)

Okay again, what is the benefit of making a speculation like that? Why are you operating under the assumption that King Song has never made a wheel before and therefore would put out a fatal product??  The obvious answer here is that the weight of the suspension offsets the weight of the extra batteries in front, not that KS put out a completely useless wheel.

[jimjam.nyc]

19 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

Okay again, what is the benefit of making a speculation like that? Why are you operating under the assumption that King Song has never made a wheel before and therefore would put out a fatal product??  The obvious answer here is that the weight of the suspension offsets the weight of the extra batteries in front, not that KS put out a completely useless wheel.

I have been floating between this thread and the inmotion V11 thread.. There are tons of scattered people who are obviously just pissed off that one may be more popular than the other.. It is unfortunate to have to weed through all the BS just to get to constructive conversation about these wheels. 

I never understood why it matters that one person may want one product over another.. I am sure both wheels will be pretty good.. and both wheels will be far from perfect! 

 

[Stillhart]

20 minutes ago, null said:

I´m sure KS did their math but I‘d beware of stating “obvious answers”. You are putting a lot of words in @SamSuffit s mouth.

I'm not saying I'm right.  I'm saying that it's FAR more likely that the weight is actually evenly distributed than that it's super dangerous and NOBODY noticed, including Kuji, until Sam pointed it out.  Based on a gif that someone made.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Stillhart

[SamSuffit]

2 hours ago, Stillhart said:

Okay again, what is the benefit of making a speculation like that? Why are you operating under the assumption that King Song has never made a wheel before and therefore would put out a fatal product??  The obvious answer here is that the weight of the suspension offsets the weight of the extra batteries in front, not that KS put out a completely useless wheel.

Wow calm down cow boy! The aim of this forum is to discuss about wheels. KS or any other constructor is not giving all information, so we speculate. Nothing bad here. Nobody's perfect, and constructors neither.

The obvious observation is that you are quite sensitive about your wheels. Furthermore, Kuji made only a quick video about a prototype, not a full review of a finished product.

Or maybe I'm just a spy working for Gotway/Inmotion/Ninebot...

 

[Stillhart]

You know, you're right.  I was looking at that gif, and it looks like there's a part there that sprays acid in your face when you brake.  How could King Song make something so dangerous??

Let's all get out our torches and pitchforks!!  

[Issah]

The main difference in the V11 and S18's Suspensions, are that on the V11, the pedals areThe only thing pushing down on the suspension. It's purely for comfort, and will in my opinion, not perform as well as the S18's because of how the wheel assembly, with batteries and all will all be moving up and down as you move over bumps in the road or terrain.
On the S18, the suspension carries the weight of all the batteries, leaving the wheel the only part actively  travelling up and down as it travels over bumps.

There's a reason why high-performance rims on cars weigh very little. The suspension presses the wheels down onto the road, the faster the wheel can absorb an impact and carry as little inertia as possible means you have more contact with the ground. 

I feel like the V11's system is more a top-mounted cushion, whereas the S18's is an actual "Suspension." The effectiveness and comfort of suspension relies entirely on how  effectively it can absorb bumps while transferring as little energy as possible to the rider, or in the case of a car, the chassis.