King Song S18 Discussion

[Eucenduro]

27 minutes ago, Afeez Kay said:

I like this thinking.. needs more battery 🔋 but that will also increase the weight from 22kg 

But no need more Wh only difrent batery configuration. With a 4p is enough and the weight not change. The battery isnt only Wh is P number too. ))

[Phong Vu]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Nor has anyone claimed that the S18 would be capable of producing 2200W of power. This is what I meant above, you don’t understand what the number means. Nominal motor wattage rating doesn’t tell us anything about the power capabilities  of the battery or the controller. It’s a completely separate measure. A 2200W motor is a 2200W motor even if you hook it up to a worn 1.5V battery from a TV remote.

Thanks to all the guys here, I understand a lot more about battery design and how battery and motor work together  nice read.

I would say that, for a novice like me (I believe I'm the majority of the buyers), I looking at the 2200W motor and think this is as strong as 16X, 18XL, no more no less.
Since I don't understand, so I would never thinking about battery design, just the how many WH and how far the wheel can take me, that's it.

Couple a battery which cannot utilize the motor power is indeed misleading (quite common for products marketing).

S18 do go down a few more points compare to V11 now... the rest remains to be seen.

[null]

34 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

But no need more Wh only difrent batery configuration

I need more range before I'd buy it, and many in the thread have expressed the same.
These are two different issues so one doesn't exclude the other.

Edited April 12, 2020 by null

[Eucenduro]

4 minutes ago, null said:

I need more range before I'd buy it, and many in the thread have expressed the same.
They are two different issues, but on doesn't exclude the other.

Yess i agarre with you )) But most people can see the Wh and know the wheel range. But the P number is unknow for the most riders. Thats why i so borring about that!! Sorry Man you are right too. ))

[jimjam.nyc]

all this weak battery talk has prompted me to post a question! 

I am a casual rider in NYC. I am just looking for a comfortable ride and decent range.. I dont plan on pushing the limits (or my fate) with any wheel i ride.. 

I currently own a V8 (which i learned on) and am leaning towards the s18 as an upgrade.. 

am i correct in assuming this wheel will suit me fine and be safe for city pothole riding? 

I am starting to get concerned with all of the technical battery talk here.. The weight of this wheel and increased capacity from something like a tiny little V8 is what has me interested! 

The inmotion looks nice. but it seems more offroady, and bit too heavy for my liking.. Not sure i will need the extra range being i live in the city.

Thanks for all the great info posted here, i learned quite a bit!

 

[Eucenduro]

12 minutes ago, Mr.Do.NYC said:

all this weak battery talk has prompted me to post a question! 

I am a casual rider in NYC. I am just looking for a comfortable ride and decent range.. I dont plan on pushing the limits (or my fate) with any wheel i ride.. 

I currently own a V8 (which i learned on) and am leaning towards the s18 as an upgrade.. 

am i correct in assuming this wheel will suit me fine and be safe for city pothole riding? 

I am starting to get concerned with all of the technical battery talk here.. The weight of this wheel and increased capacity from something like a tiny little V8 is what has me interested! 

The inmotion looks nice. but it seems more offroady, and bit too heavy for my liking.. Not sure i will need the extra range being i live in the city.

Thanks for all the great info posted here, i learned quite a bit!

 

I think the best decision is waiting for the reviews and the riders test it in diffrent places. I think s18 Will be great for city and is a good upgrade for you. But the battery problem is real so is better to see what s18 can do before buy ))

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, Mr.Do.NYC said:

am i correct in assuming this wheel will suit me fine and be safe for city pothole riding? 

Very likely yes! It's sleek and light and has a suspension for comforty goodness. You can always get a "bigger" wheel later if you want more range or speed. But it will be a huge improvement over your V8.

1 hour ago, Eucenduro said:

But the battery problem is real so is better to see what s18 can do before buy ))

I wouldn't call it a battery problem. The battery just isn't as big and bad as some people would (rightfully) like. Let's just see how it works out when the wheel is released and used before going into panic mode.

[mrelwood]

 

1 hour ago, Espen R said:

An MSP will have less real use range to me than my 18XL, and for me that is a more relevant concept to understand

The main reason why any Gotway will get less range than the 18XL is not because of the GW performance, but because 18XL uses the battery voltage 30% further than GW does. Wasn't this also explained recently in this thread? A standard same-speed range test shows this very clearly.

1 hour ago, Espen R said:

Range for me is what get from an 80-100% charge down to the point where the wheel can’t deliver the performance I require.

This is yet another specification that makes it impossible for anyone else but you to give the range value you want to see. You see that, don't you?

1 hour ago, Espen R said:

2200W is used in a way by the manufacturer that communicates a high preforming wheel, and it is the misconception it creates when you compare that to the specs that aggravates me.

Me too. Exactly the same wattage wars had been going on in guitar amps for decades, until the Youtube reviewers and bloggers were finally able to spread some long awaited facts. There were also pixel wars in digital cameras. And so on. But all manufacturers are in a tough spot. The nominal motor wattage is the one value that people ask to see, since without further understanding of the matter one has to grasp to something in the specs to compare wheels with. If KS hadn't mentioned any motor wattage value, the public outcry would've exceeded even the current battery panic.

1 hour ago, Espen R said:

We don’t have a number that would show the actual difference between the wheels.

Inmotion announced the controller output wattage in the introduction event. It seemed like a concrete step towards what we all want to see, but many people naturally mistook it for the nominal motor wattage...

1 hour ago, Espen R said:

I offer my apology to everyone who had to rest their eyes on my passionately driven stupidity. Still think the S18 is promoted deceitfully, but I shouldn’t have used childish words.  

Takes a sensible grown up person to own up and apologize like that. I respect what you did there! 

 

14 minutes ago, Mr.Do.NYC said:

am i correct in assuming this wheel will suit me fine and be safe for city pothole riding?

The exact nature of the S18 remains to be seen, but based on your description my guess is yes, it should fit you well.

Since Kuji Rolls has been working with KS to make the S18, it is reasonable to expect that while not nearly the fastest or most powerful, the S18 should have no problem keeping up with medium riding pace. Wether or not you'r requirements will soon grow beyond the S18 performance is anyone's guess.

[B08AH]

14 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

But it will be a huge improvement over your V8.

i'd say twice the range and twice the power. When they theorize about this EUC being weak and dangerous, they always forget that majority of riders use EUC's like V8.

[Eucenduro]

32 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I wouldn't call it a battery problem. The battery just isn't as big and bad as some people would (rightfully) like. Let's just see how it works out when the wheel is released and used before going into panic mode.

You can call it what you want but the numbers are numbers. The maths dont lie and P number in that wheel isnt enought, 3p LG for a 2.200w!!! Is a fact Bro not a opinion. 

If you ride these wheel like a 16s no problem at all.

But you cant buy It thinking is like a 16x with suspension and less battery. Thats the problem. The people dont know about p numbers and is important to know that. 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Eucenduro

[Jon Stern]

14 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

To be precise (I own all wheels)

This quote is pretty accurate even when taken out of context!

[Marty Backe]

10 hours ago, Espen R said:

 

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I didn't compare the same range scenario in a same speed range test, which isn’t a sensible comparison for me, because doesn’t show the difference in the wheel’s capability or how much power they consume when they are used to their ability. What I imagined was that the wheels were used by an experienced rider that pushed the wheels to what they are capable of, and with the higher wattage motors I assumed higher consumption, and that the real use range on the MSP would be fairly close to the 18L. For me, that is a realistic and fair comparison.

That’s the reason I concluded that a 1400-1800wh battery pack on a 2200-2500W wheel would be closer to the range of a 1036wh 18L with a 2000W motor in a real use scenario, than the 1554wh MSX and 18XL. I might be wrong about this, but I don’t think it’s a “a laughable assertion” @Marty Backe. Range testing a Ferrari 812 Superfast vs an Alfa Romeo 4C with full tanks, you might see that the 812’s larger tank gives you more range, but I fail to see the relevance in that, because it doesn’t reflect the difference in capability between the cars, and if they are used closer to their ability the range will be more similar.

 

Edit side note: If you put the Alfa Romeo 4C tank in the Ferrari 812 Superfast and used the car to its ability, then the range would be silly, aka S18:) I think we need a better way than same speed cruising range to compare the different wheels, because that is really only relevant when you are same speed cruising, and it only reflects the effectiveness of the motor. I have no intention to upgrade my 18XL to something more powerful and then only use it the same way I used the 18XL. I will go faster and accelerate harder on my off-road trails with a more powerful wheel, but my on-road cruising speed would probably be the same, so it isn’t easy to find relevant numbers to compare different wheels with different sized motors.

 

In my opinion, the only way to do a meaningful range test is to ride all wheels in the same approximate conditions. However, I suppose range for a wheel ridden under maximum conditions (speed and aggressiveness) would be meaningful to some people. Other people will have to undertake that effort.

For all my range tests I make a point of clarifying that I'm riding the same identical route and the same approximate speeds. For my range testing, the MSP is a substantially longer range wheel than the KS18L. When we do group rides, nobody riding a KS18L can join us.

[jonm42]

7 hours ago, Espen R said:

I haven’t been exposed to this kind of argumentation in quite a while, but I’ll try to answer politely. I haven’t brought to marked a single wheel, but I have dreamt up a few in my head. Compared to actual intelligence, I’m an idiot, but compared to other humans with what we call human intelligence, I’m ok. I’m able to piece together information and draw a conclusion, but like most people, my conclusions are more often than not wrong, because I hadn’t pieced together enough information before I concluded. When it comes to the S18, it is hard for me to conclude differently than what I have, with the information currently available to us.

 

If the S18 where capable of utilizing its 2200W motor, then a 1100wh battery would be a dick move because of the lack of headroom you would have when you use the wheel to its capacity, therefore, and sooner than you would imagine, it will either be seriously power limited for most of the time on a long(ish) ride, or you could experience cut outs. Range and speed aren’t really relevant, because you could get decent range at 10-15mph cruising speed and you would be able to ride at 31mph for a few minutes after a full charge, but if that is your use scenario, why would you buy an 18” wheel with a 2200W motor?

 

But the 3p battery pack isn’t really capable of 2200W, it’s more like 1200-1500W, so then it is safe to call it a dick move because the specs are a lie. The true specs of the S18 are in reality comparable to the KS16S or the old 18S. If they where honest about this, called it a 1500W wheel and put a 25mph speed limit on it to keep it safe, then the 1100wh would make sense and more people would understand what type of wheel this truly is.

 

 

 

This time I could follow what you are saying, Thank you for the clarification.

[B08AH]

1 hour ago, Eucenduro said:

The maths dont lie and P number in that wheel isnt enought

Could you please stop waving P-ness in peoples faces?  Your P-ness is irrelevant.

 

[Eucenduro]

3 minutes ago, B08AH said:

Could you please stop waving P-ness in peoples faces?  Your P-ness is irrelevant.

 

No man! Is something very important for the future buyers. Dont be rude please )) 

[Camenbert]

1 hour ago, Eucenduro said:

You can call it what you want but the numbers are numbers. The maths dont lie and P number in that wheel isnt enought, 3p LG for a 2.200w!!! Is a fact Bro not a opinion.

It's start to be boring. First 21700 are 50% bigger than 18650, so 3P 21700 = 4-5P 18650.
Then you have 10A constant power cells, other 21700 can give 40A, and always more as pic.
Don't think KingSong stupid enough to not consider this correctly.

Last 2200W motor mean you can ask 2200W 1 hour before it overheat (at ideal rotation speed, 20°C), it says nothing about current consumption (this is main board stuff).

I hope these explanations will help.

[.....]

8 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

No man! Is something very important for the future buyers. Dont be rude please )) 

oh come on now, that was a really good  play on words. I think he wasnt being rude, just tossing some humor in an otherwise very passionate debate. Made me laugh...

[meepmeepmayer]

I have to admit that was a clever joke I didn't get

Everyone be nice to one another, assume the best, and understand that not everyone is a native English speaker and that things can be misinterpreted in various ways

[Stillhart]

34 minutes ago, B08AH said:

Could you please stop waving P-ness in peoples faces?  Your P-ness is irrelevant.

 

I see what you did there...

On topic, I'm still withholding judgement until some real world testing happens.  All this arguing over theory is kinda silly when the ultimate proof happens out in the real world. 

[Unventor]

14 hours ago, Rywokast said:

not to mention the 18L motor and firmware have a very gradual power increase, little torque compared to an 18XL 2200W motor on 2.0 FW, which is why kingsong cripples the speed on that setup starting at 50% battery lol... 50% of a 1554 wh battery... i feel like the ride style of the S18 will be a lot more relaxed and gradual compared to the 16X or else youre going to see a lot of cutouts, im not sure if it was smart to go with 21700 batteries in this case why not just do like the 18L with a 4p setup 18650 batteries? am i missing something, i was under the impression it was only a good idea to switch to 21700 in something with adequate space to be able to squeeze in a little more batteries in that provided space.. but this euc was designed around the usage of 21700s...... so why not put in a little more and make it a tiny bit bigger or go with 18650s?

The short answer is that it is public cry out as GW said 21700 is better. What people forgot in all speed is that GW kept 4p or more so they got the needed head room to go faster. 

So when a company chooses to use 21700 otherwise it do look nice on paper and most seem to overlook the 3p being an issue, I can only think one thing. There are going to be some very disappointed customers at some point. 

Yet people at still on about but it must go 35mph......

Now I don't recall what the configuration of the V11 is. But they are just as likely to go into the same battery trap.

We shall see. 

Just a side note. I think that red version is sweet looking. But then again I have something for red.

[.....]

All this arguing over 'p-ness' makes me scared to be one of the test monkeys...  I admittedly don't know much about it and also tend to have too much faith that KS ran all the numbers. Who knows tho, maybe I'll be too busy playing on my sks18 to even recall ANY of this.... right up to the point my chin explodes from an overlean.

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Unventor]

1 minute ago, ShanesPlanet said:

All this arguing over 'p-ness' makes me scared to be one of the test monkeys...  I admittedly don't know much about it and also tend to have too much faith that KS ran all the numbers. Who knows tho, maybe I'll be too busy playing on my sks18 to even recall ANY of this..

 

Very short answer. The higher number of cells in parallel the more amps totally can be pulled out of the battery pack. The more cells in a pack the the long time you can discharge as it is distributed over each cells. 

So for you stay balanced the wheel the power for that, plus the power you require to go a certain speed.

Do you hit a pothole of suddenly accelerate fast and then hit a pot hole the the spike need is much higher but if you discharge battery at higher rates than it is rated you risk cell failure or over heating. Thing of this a reving you car into the red area and keeping it there. 

This is why people faceplant. Not know what limitation of their hardware is. Or not having attention where it is needed. There is a picture/short video in helmet thread posted the other day. 

Some riding without helmet at 28ish mph not keeping the eyes where he is going, hitting a pot hole and lost it. 

It is grim to watch so I am not posting it here. But I do think people need to know these things. Speed brings all kind of risks. 

[meepmeepmayer]

18 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Now I don't recall what the configuration of the V11 is. But they are just as likely to go into the same battery trap.

V11 is 4p which has been proven good with the 1800Wh Nikola and MSX/MSP which are 4p also (albeit 100V).

Probably 3p is fine, too. KS must know more than we do.

Edited April 12, 2020 by meepmeepmayer

[Stillhart]

2 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Very short answer. The higher number of cells in parallel the more amps totally can be pulled out of the battery pack. The more cells in a pack the the long time you can discharge as it is distributed over each cells. 

So for you stay balanced the wheel the power for that, plus the power you require to go a certain speed.

Do you hit a pothole of suddenly accelerate fast and then hit a pot hole the the spike need is much higher but if you discharge battery at higher rates than it is rated you risk cell failure or over heating. Thing of this a reving you car into the red area and keeping it there. 

This is why people faceplant. Not know what limitation of their hardware is. Or not having attention where it is needed. There is a picture/short video in helmet thread posted the other day. 

Some riding without helmet at 28ish mph not keeping the eyes where he is going, hitting a pot hole and lost it. 

It is grim to watch so I am not posting it here. But I do think people need to know these things. Speed brings all kind of risks. 

I realize you're using potholes just as an example, but is it worth considering that the suspension may eliminate this particular danger?  Perhaps that's why they figured they could get away with the smaller p-ness?

[mkygod]

Any Akira fans here?

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by mkygod