King Song S18 Discussion

[Espen R]

17 hours ago, jonm42 said:

I will only respond in this manner once. How many wheels have you designed and successfully brought to market?

I haven’t been exposed to this kind of argumentation in quite a while, but I’ll try to answer politely. I haven’t brought to marked a single wheel, but I have dreamt up a few in my head. Compared to actual intelligence, I’m an idiot, but compared to other humans with what we call human intelligence, I’m ok. I’m able to piece together information and draw a conclusion, but like most people, my conclusions are more often than not wrong, because I hadn’t pieced together enough information before I concluded. When it comes to the S18, it is hard for me to conclude differently than what I have, with the information currently available to us.

If the S18 where capable of utilizing its 2200W motor, then a 1100wh battery would be a dick move because of the lack of headroom you would have when you use the wheel to its capacity, therefore, and sooner than you would imagine, it will either be seriously power limited for most of the time on a long(ish) ride, or you could experience cut outs. Range and speed aren’t really relevant, because you could get decent range at 10-15mph cruising speed and you would be able to ride at 31mph for a few minutes after a full charge, but if that is your use scenario, why would you buy an 18” wheel with a 2200W motor?

But the 3p battery pack isn’t really capable of 2200W, it’s more like 1200-1500W, so then it is safe to call it a dick move because the specs are a lie. The true specs of the S18 are in reality comparable to the KS16S or the old 18S. If they where honest about this, called it a 1500W wheel and put a 25mph speed limit on it to keep it safe, then the 1100wh would make sense and more people would understand what type of wheel this truly is.

[Yunicycle]

I started reading this tread from page 1 a few hours ago and only made half way thru, it's too long 

And all I want to know is.....did CHOOCH survive the fall from the hill?

All I was thinking while the bear was chasing him was, DAMN YOU King Song!!!, why couldn't you have made the s18 more than the 31mph??

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Yunicycle

[Chriull]

28 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Why would it be better to source a new motor that is rated to sustain less power for long periods? 

Motor power is more or less just some (marketing) number...

28 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

I think the problem is more in the marketing and how people interpret the specs. Motor watt rating doesn't tell the whole story about the wheel's power. Right now the general assumption is that S18 is more powerful than v11 because it's 2200W vs 2000W rated motor. But what you are saying is that the V11 with 4p battery is actually more powerful and the S18 cannot safely utilise all that the 2200W rated motor could provide on a wheel with bigger battery. 

Maybe we should start to think about motor power more as a combination of battery (p-number) and size of magnets. And volts matter only if you need to reach higher rpm. Motor's rated watt number should just be enough to sustain long periods of uphills but otherwise the peak number is more important. Am I correct?

Motor watt number should just state how much power the motor can generate sustainable.

The voltage of the battery determine the maximum speed (in cunjunction with the windings in the motor coils).

But by this first design choice (number of windings, speed, voltage) also the torque constant of the motor is determined - how much torque the motor produces per current through the coils.

Size of magnets and other mechanical designe choices should imho just change beside ?efficiency? if and how much of this above determined limits can be reached.

The next point in the considerations/design choices is the battery pack. It has to provide the voltage (cells in series) to reach the max speed in combination with the motor design. The number of cells in series and in parallel determine the internal resistance. This battery resistance together with the motors coil resistance (+mosfets/cabling/... to a small extent) determine the absolute systems limit. Once one has the zero speed max torque - maximum current at standstill = U battery / (R internal battery + R motor coil) and on the other side the no load maximum speed. If one connects these two points one gets to the maximum current over speed limit diagram (the motor + battery = system limit of the EUC). As written above this motor current multiplied with the torque constant of the motor delivers the maximum torque over speed diagramm.

So two EUCs with about the same maximum speed (lift cut off speed would be way more exact for comparison) and the same battery pack will perform about the same. Only differences are by the other "side design choices" which mainly affect efficiency (and how much of the "potential" is used).

As we know the cooling system/heatsink design will affect greatly how much (and how often) peak power can be delivered without mosfets frying.

And last but no least the last limiting is the firmware - how they limit/secure this whole system/how big they design the safety margins and how much of the potential is available for riding..

So - no the number before the W printed on the motor tells about nothing about the wheels performance to be expected... ;(

1 hour ago, buell47 said:

16X = 6p x 10A =60A

S18 =3p x 15A = 45A

 

40 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

S18= LG 10A It is confirm Bro. 

 

17 minutes ago, buell47 said:

 

You said it has 15A

I just searched for the LG INR 21700-50T (that's imho the now used 21700 cell?) - there is no maximum load current specified anymore...

The only relevant number given is Max Pulse discharg power for a max duration of 10 seconds at 25°C +/- 2°C of 80W at a state of charge of 80%. So if one cools the cells to this 25°C one could take for 10 seconds about 20A, if the cell is quite full... But still no specification about when one could start the next 10 second pulse to take this power...

 

1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

You cannot really market a new wheel anymore if it doesn't have 21700 batteries. It has become a number on spec sheet that compares as better than 18650. It is now a "known fact" that 21700 is better, no matter what version. I don't really know if 18650s would be better or not in this case, but I doubt that 21700s somehow magically make wheels better. 

That's something i hoped once the first rumours of 217000 cells used in EUCs came up - but as it seems by now (specs of the LG 50T) there seems not to be too much difference. They have a bit less internal resistance, more capacity and take up more space. 

So a 20s4p 18650 pack will have about 1036 Wh and an internal resistance of ~225mOhm, a 20s3p 21700 pack about 1110 Wh and 200 mOhm. So very comparable - size could be about the same (did not look really at the geometry...). As once already posted here somewhere - that best choice should be to take the cell (18650 or 21700) were one can use the space of the EUC up to the maximum...

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, Afeez Kay said:

@Rehab1 Can you make the rim dark grey? Thanks

I’ll give it a try. 

[UniVehje]

9 minutes ago, Chriull said:

So a 20s4p 18650 pack will have about 1036 Wh and an internal resistance of ~225mOhm, a 20s3p 21700 pack about 1110 Wh and 200 mOhm. So very comparable - size could be about the same (did not look really at the geometry...). As once already posted here somewhere - that best choice should be to take the cell (18650 or 21700) were one can use the space of the EUC up to the maximum...

Thank you for the detailed input. And because I'm not trained in electronics, I have to ask a simple question: Does this mean that it's almost the same or that it would have been better for them to make it a 1036 Wh 20s4p with 18650 cells because 4p is always better than 3p? 

I also now understand InMotion choice better. They went with 20s4p 21700 pack and it gives them 1420Wh. It's then about comparable to a 20s6p 1554 Wh pack. But which is better? Using 21700 cells their next option is then to make a 20s5p pack, right? And that would be about 1850Wh battery? 

[Eucenduro]

7 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Thank you for the detailed input. And because I'm not trained in electronics, I have to ask a simple question: Does this mean that it's almost the same or that it would have been better for them to make it a 1036 Wh 20s4p with 18650 cells because 4p is always better than 3p? 

I also now understand InMotion choice better. They went with 20s4p 21700 pack and it gives them 1420Wh. It's then about comparable to a 20s6p 1554 Wh pack. But which is better? Using 21700 cells their next option is then to make a 20s5p pack, right? And that would be about 1850Wh battery? 

Yes! You are right. For the s18 a 4p is enought. So Will be better 1036wh than the 1110wh with 3p!!!

👏👏👏👏

[Rywokast]

1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

You cannot really market a new wheel anymore if it doesn't have 21700 batteries. It has become a number on spec sheet that compares as better than 18650. It is now a "known fact" that 21700 is better, no matter what version. I don't really know if 18650s would be better or not in this case, but I doubt that 21700s somehow magically make wheels better. 

i think it was a foolish move.. even if the wh are slightly less you can fit way more 18650 batteries to make for a safer system.. like this euc was designed from the ground up, obviously.. so they could have done literally anything including making it a bit bigger to either fit a bit more 21700 cells for their marketing to make it similar to IM, or kept it the same size and gone with 18650s.. why do people think these are better just because theyre used in teslas? lol

6 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

Yes! You are right. For the s18 a 4p is enought. So Will be better 1036wh than the 1110wh with 3p!!!

👏👏👏👏

exactly.. the KS18L is perfectly safe... as its two year track record shows

[Chriull]

16 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

because 4p is always better than 3p? 

No. As it seems a 3p 21700 could be about comparable to a 4p 18650 pack.

But there are different chemistries and other factors...

The internal resistance is also very "delicate" and not just a constant/linear value...

Real comparison is only possible in real world tests - same burden pattern (weight, inclines, accelerations,etc...) and this could differ greatly for hilly trails or constant speed driving on flat roads...

[B08AH]

6 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

it's almost the same or that it would have been better for them to make it a 1036 Wh 20s4p with 18650 cells because 4p is always better than 3p? 

number of parallels is irrelevant, it is continuous power and peak power of the battery that matters. As continuous numbers go, 3p 21700 battery has lower specs, but peak measured load of 21700 elements is more than 50% higher. So it is about the parity 21700 3p vs 18650 4p , but the former produces somewhat more heat if you ride it aggressively.

Same goes for Sony VTC cells, battery composed of these cells would have twice the peak power of LG MJ1, but at the cost of overheating. so they would need some means of cooling. like aluminum battery boxes (S18) Instead of 2 layers of plastic covers(18L and V10).

[meepmeepmayer]

9 hours ago, Phong Vu said:

First, I'm not say you're wrong, I'm just still not understand the point.

People are concerned that the 3p battery is too easy to overpower for a performance wheel, which is what they want the S18 to be. (The motor rating doesn't really matter for this.)

-

Power is what you want. More maximum power = good, naturally. You can do more with a higher margin.

Power = voltage * current. The voltage is (in first approximation) always the same, that's just the charge state of your battery at any point in time. So current availability is where you can influence the peak power.

(Peak) Current scales with the number of parallel battery cell blocks. 3p has 3 in parallel, 4p has 4. So 4p has 4/3 times more maximum current and therefore maximum power if everything else is the same.

In addition, less p means a higher voltage drop. The voltage naturally drops when the battery is stressed, and it drops faster when distributed among less parallel blocks, so this also reduces the peak power by reducing the voltage faster.

People are concerned that the battery is too easy to overpower, because at least on paper it looks like that. Many say that 3p isn't enough for a performance wheel. They are worried about early speed reductions, conservative firmware behavior, limited speed, etc. We'll see how it works out in reality with the new type 21700 cells. Also I'm not sure this is supposed to be the performance wheel that people wish it was.

Edited April 12, 2020 by meepmeepmayer

[B08AH]

1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said:

3p battery is too easy to overpower for a performance wheel, which is what they want the S18 to be

Which it obviously isn't. They will release performance variant later, like they did with 18L => XL

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, Espen R said:

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I didn't compare the same range scenario in a same speed range test, which isn’t a sensible comparison for me, because doesn’t show the difference in the wheel’s capability or how much power they consume when they are used to their ability.

This is the first time I hear of anyone suggesting anything to be measured with a subjective addition of a completely irrelevant other measure. If you look at car gas consumption values, they are measured with a very specific and standardized driving patterns. A Ferrari is put thru the exact same pattern than a Pinto, because that is the only way to compare anything: to isolate the parameter you want to measure, as much as sensibly possible. And especially from any subjective aspects, like ”to it’s capability”. Or how a certain individual would drive the other car differently.

EUC ranges have always been reported with a 60-70kg rider riding at 20-25km/h on smooth surface at around 20•C temperature. That is for the S2, the Nik+, and everything in between. You can suggest anything you want, but I don’t think your idea is going to change how things have been measured for years now.

3 hours ago, Espen R said:

I will go faster and accelerate harder on my off-road trails with a more powerful wheel, but my on-road cruising speed would probably be the same, so it isn’t easy to find relevant numbers to compare different wheels with different sized motors.

Exactly. There aren’t any. How you use the wheel is individual to you, so nobody else can measure or estimate how you would ride.

22 minutes ago, Espen R said:

why would you buy an 18” wheel with a 2200W motor?

You either missed, ignored or misunderstood my earlier post where I explained what the motor wattage rating means. @UniVehje mentioned it as well. It’s cool, but the main reason for you being angry at the S18 battery configuration and size, is based on misunderstanding what the motor wattage means.

Maybe this helps: You want to buy small desktop speakers for your laptop. A no-name Chinese product has a big bold 3500W!! printed on the box, and checking the competing Logitech spec sheet they mention a 5W amplifier. Which one is louder?

Wattage by itself is absolutely meaningless unless you know precisely what is being measured. Just like you don’t get pissed at the wheel from having a 21.62” measurement somewhere in the spec sheet.

22 minutes ago, Espen R said:

But the 3p battery pack isn’t really capable of 2200W

Nor has anyone claimed that the S18 would be capable of producing 2200W of power. This is what I meant above, you don’t understand what the number means. Nominal motor wattage rating doesn’t tell us anything about the power capabilities  of the battery or the controller. It’s a completely separate measure. A 2200W motor is a 2200W motor even if you hook it up to a worn 1.5V battery from a TV remote.

22 minutes ago, Espen R said:

it is safe to call it a dick move because the specs are a lie.

The only dick move I see is someone being quite vocal and losing his/her nuts over some specs (s)he doesn’t understand. And blaming other people about making dick moves and lying.

A bit embarrassing if you ask me.

[UniVehje]

4 minutes ago, B08AH said:

Which it obviously isn't. They will release performance variant later, like they did with 18L => XL

Hopefully so. But the worry is that there is not enough space designed for that body to fit 40 more 21700 cells. 

[meepmeepmayer]

7 minutes ago, B08AH said:

Which it obviously isn't.

Yes, probably it isn't going to be a performance wheel (and isn't supposed to be!).

7 minutes ago, B08AH said:

They will release performance variant later, like they did with 18L => XL

They did not plan for the 18XL. They had a super nice new battery casing for the 18L and then cut away plastic struts from the side panels and put in a foiled battery just so it would work out (barely).

With the S18, I don't see where they could add more battery even if they wanted to! At least they would have to do a serious redesign, unlike the 18XL they could barely be convinced to produce (apparently).

I'll be happily surprised by a S18 with bigger battery, but I wouldn't bet on it, going by King Song's past behavior. But maybe it is too early to tell. They can always change their mind once the wheel is released and they see the sales numbers, dealer comments, etc.

Edited April 12, 2020 by meepmeepmayer

[B08AH]

7 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I wouldn't bet on it, going by King Song's past behavior.

Kingsong past behavior goes like this:

- we are not going to make 84Volt EUCs, that's cheap engineering

- meet new 18L

- we can not add more battery to 18L, there is no space

- meet new 18XL

- we are not going to make 12-fets controllers, 6 is enough for everyone

- meet new 16X.

 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

I hope you're right!! No argument from me there 2020 has been a very surprising year for EUCs, so maybe it will keep going.

[Meserias]

They (KS) also declare as far I as remember they not going to release new wheel soon .... meet S18

[Rehab1]

3 hours ago, Afeez Kay said:

@Rehab1 Can you make the rim dark grey? Thanks

Here you go

 

[Camenbert]

Please KS, make it available in red with gold wheel (same as suspension elements)

Instead of bigger battery, I would like to see a wheel with integrated fast charger, and power cord as on my vacuum cleaner.
Wherever you go, café, friends, shops, this will allow to plug the wheel in literally 2 seconds.

Add an alarm if unplug without prior stop in the app.

Therefore I don't need a wheel that weight an anvil.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Camenbert

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

18 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

Instead of bigger battery, I would like to see a wheel with integrated charger, and power cord as on my vacuum cleaner.

I want xenon headlights, an integrated fire extinguisher system, Driver Assistant with Faceplant Warning, Lane Keeping Assistant, Brake Assistant, Collision Warning, Head-Up Display, Cruise Control with stop-and-go function, a side stand (because cool), a main stand to clean it properly. 

[Espen R]

 

 

13 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

This is the first time I hear of anyone suggesting anything to be measured with a subjective addition of a completely irrelevant other measure. If you look at car gas consumption values, they are measured with a very specific and standardized driving patterns. A Ferrari is put thru the exact same pattern than a Pinto, because that is the only way to compare anything: to isolate the parameter you want to measure, as much as sensibly possible. And especially from any subjective aspects, like ”to it’s capability”. Or how a certain individual would drive the other car differently.

EUC ranges have always been reported with a 60-70kg rider riding at 20-25km/h on smooth surface at around 20•C temperature. That is for the S2, the Nik+, and everything in between. You can suggest anything you want, but I don’t think your idea is going to change how things have been measured for years now.

You pick and choose your quotes to fit your argument, but if you read what I wrote I think you’ll understand my point. Same speed range testing isn’t relevant as a comparison between wheels with different power output and end voltage, you have to use the wheels closer to their capability to see the difference. I’ve never been a fan of range testing EUC’s the way it’s now being done, because the number you get has no relevance to anything. Different power output on the wheels and different end voltage between the different brands, makes impossible to interpret the mileage number in any sensible way. An MSP will have less real use range to me than my 18XL, and for me that is a more relevant concept to understand than what mileage you get from a same speed range test. I have never been able to get the same consumption per 10km as the car manufactures claim, so that number has never been relevant to me, and the same goes for same speed/same weight range testing on EUC’s. Range for me is what get from an 80-100% charge down to the point where the wheel can’t deliver the performance I require.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

You either missed, ignored or misunderstood my earlier post where I explained what the motor wattage rating means. @UniVehje mentioned it as well. It’s cool, but the main reason for you being angry at the S18 battery configuration and size, is based on misunderstanding what the motor wattage means.

Maybe this helps: You want to buy small desktop speakers for your laptop. A no-name Chinese product has a big bold 3500W!! printed on the box, and checking the competing Logitech spec sheet they mention a 5W amplifier. Which one is louder?

Wattage by itself is absolutely meaningless unless you know precisely what is being measured. Just like you don’t get pissed at the wheel from having a 21.62” measurement somewhere in the spec sheet.

My quote wasn’t addressed to you. I do understand that the wattage is a fictional number, but it is the number EUC manufactures use to communicate with us about the wheel’s ability, so I think it is fair to use wattage to describe the difference between wheels. 2200W is used in a way by the manufacturer that communicates a high preforming wheel, and it is the misconception it creates when you compare that to the specs that aggravates me. It’s how its promoted vs what and who the wheel is meant for, and I don’t understand why you would make a wheel with 2016/17 specs in 2020.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Nor has anyone claimed that the S18 would be capable of producing 2200W of power. This is what I meant above, you don’t understand what the number means. Nominal motor wattage rating doesn’t tell us anything about the power capabilities  of the battery or the controller. It’s a completely separate measure. A 2200W motor is a 2200W motor even if you hook it up to a worn 1.5V battery from a TV remote.

Again, it is how this is used promoting the wheel that is the issue for me. We don’t have a number that would show the actual difference between the wheels. I love EUC’s, and I want more people to start riding the most fun personal micro transport vehicle ever invented, so what scares me in how the S18 is promoted is the potential disappointment it will create if someone buys this wheel thinking it is a high preforming wheel, and then finds out he can’t do the same things he has seen on YouTube or he can’t keep up with his friends EUC’s.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

The only dick move I see is someone being quite vocal and losing his/her nuts over some specs (s)he doesn’t understand. And blaming other people about making dick moves and lying.

A bit embarrassing if you ask me.

I’ll take that. It’s no excuse, but I’m a passionate guy, and I don’t want anyone to get hurt or feel disappointed after spending close to 2000$ on an EUC from my favourite brand, Kingsong. Should I’ve used a different term, yes, I should, I’m a grown up man that should’ve learned to control his emotions in a forum like this. I offer my apology to everyone who had to rest their eyes on my passionately driven stupidity. Still think the S18 is promoted deceitfully, but I shouldn’t have used childish words.  

[null]

2 hours ago, UniVehje said:

Hopefully so. But the worry is that there is not enough space designed for that body to fit 40 more 21700 cells. 

Indeed. However, contrary to 18L>XL the shell isn't a large structural element, they could probably make a wider shell element toward the front (double as power pads?) to accommodate for extra batteries. Or somewhere else, my point being they could maybe redo just a part of the panels.. The wheel is fairly slim and light, so if we went for 25Kg and some cheeks to get more range I'd totally buy it.

Edited April 12, 2020 by null

[Afeez Kay]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

Here you go

 

Ahhh now you see.. the s18 may be nothing more than a 16s upgrade but it’s one sexy wheel. Thank you for the paint mod 😁

[Afeez Kay]

1 minute ago, null said:

Indeed. However, contrary to 18L>XL the shell isn't a large structural element, they could probably make a wider shell toward the front (double as power pads?) to accommodate for extra batteries. Or somewhere else, my point being they could maybe redo just a part of the panels.. 

I like this thinking.. needs more battery 🔋 but that will also increase the weight from 22kg 

[null]

2 minutes ago, Afeez Kay said:

I like this thinking.. needs more battery 🔋 but that will also increase the weight from 22kg 

Thats true, but I find it surprising that it was "just" 22Kg, could have been worse. It is same weight as 18L but with the addition of suspensions and a bit of Wh, so 1600+ could probably fit within a reasonably weight.