King Song S18 Discussion

[xorbe]

6 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

and that's why top-end air shocks like FOX cost so much. Stealing their hard work, quite frankly, is disreputable. Using a knock-off shock robs FOX from getting the money back that they invested in R&D

Air shock absorbers were invented in 1910.  I doubt FOX did anything new other than pioneer a brand name.

[FreeRide]

6 hours ago, Dave Wood said:

....

these kinda reviews are not helpful to anybody   imo, lots of negativity, childish sniggering & assumptions  here about both wheels, thoughts?

So why then are you posting it and providing exposure?

[Dave Wood]

13 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

Don't they?  With only three major mfrs in the niche EUC market, ruining the reputation of one of the other two (especially the only one that's even close to competing with your products directly) has a large potential financial upside. 

Look, we have no FACTS to work off of.  We can find many reasons to believe or not whomever we want.  But until some facts emerge, I just can't see picking a side.

Kingsong and Inmotion  niche is mainly driven towards safety and range, but gotway seem to be out on their own in terms of what their niche market targets (speed),  that's two totally separate different markets right now until somebody offers the best of both,  people choose KS or Inmotion primary because of their reputation in safety, build quality  & quality control, seems like a awfully big risk for gotway to take with no guarantees kingsong or Inmotion riders would look to a gotway wheel if one or other went out of business simply because if you own a ks or inmotion wheel speed isn't your primary want... i just find it believe any company would risk their reputation and future by making up lies about something that doesn't involve them

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Is there any other forum where the subject "corporate espionage" can be discussed? 

IMO this is not the right platform, or at least not the right thread.  

It bores me very much?  

[Stillhart]

1 minute ago, buell47 said:

Is there any other forum where the subject "corporate espionage" can be discussed? 

IMO this is not the right platform, or at least not the right thread.  

It bores me very much?  

I wasn't discussing corporate espionage, I was discussing critical thinking and not believing claims without sources no matter how much you want to. 

But you're right, not the right place for it, I'll let it go. 

[UniVehje]

My thoughts on the KS-S18:

Most things will be compared to the V11 for obvious reasons.

• Design: Looks awesome! The best lookin wheel at the moment. I like this trend of designing wheels more like motorcycles and less like toys. I think the V11 is now only the second best looking wheel. Inmotion looks more sophisticated and S18 looks more bad ass. Still not missing side leds or speakers. 
• Lights: Ok, but nothing special after seeing what InMotion did. But not a deal breaker for me. 
• Speed: Enough for me and same as V11. 
• Suspension: Too early to say whether it’s better or worse than V11’s. The open design looks cool but I worry what happens when it tumbles among rocks. From just lookin at videos, I like the V11 simpler design better. 
• Tire: Good size and no surprises. 
• Trolley handle: Probably very good. But I’ve already had some problems with my 18XL handle after some falls so I think I prefer V11 handle. 
• Voltage: I still don’t understand why people make a big deal of it not being 100v as a 50 km/h max wheel. 
• Weight: Great, but at cost of battery. Weight saving is to be encouraged but I’m not too worried about the V11 weight. But definitely a win for S18. 
• Motor: Seems like the same as 16X and 18XLv2. Nothing wrong with it but nothing special. I have a feeling the new V11 in-house designed motor will beat it. To be seen. 
• Charger: Finally something better than 1.5A included. Still no word on the number of ports? Wins on included charger but not clear yet which is really better. 
• Pedals: Looks like similar as the XL pedals. Looks good. I don’t see a big difference to the v11. To be seen which is better. 
• Battery: Another disappointment. I get that the first versions of suspension take space but this is too small. I would be running out of range all the time. This is going to be a deal breaker. V11 battery now looks much better. 

 

Will I buy one? It’s tempting as it looks so good. It might work as a secondary trail wheel for shorter rides and maybe it might just be enough for work commuting. I hope there will be S18XL some day. 

 

How does it compare to the V11? Well, both have their benefits. I like the looks of S18 better but almost everything else seems better on the V11. Some features are still too early to compare. But at the moment the small details, simpler suspension and especially that larger battery would make the V11 a winner for me. 

 

I have already decided that I will not buy another wheel that does not have suspension. And I will buy a suspended model at some point. But I have not preordered yet. It’s more likely that I’ll buy the V11 this year but I might also wait for next version and see if Gotway brings a suspended model with decent battery. This race could be won so easily. If one of the manufacturers just made the effort to fit more cells and make sure the suspension is good enough they’d have all the sales. 

[B08AH]

i wonder, why noone accuses inmotion of stealing gotway technology that was used on mcm3 few years back?

much like V11, mcm3 had suspended pedals

 

And S18 is actually superior tech - most of the EUC mass is suspended, battery and all, not just pedals. How could they possibly steal tech that inmotion does not actually have is beyond me.

 

 

[Phong Vu]

3 minutes ago, B08AH said:

i wonder, why noone accuses inmotion of stealing gotway technology that was used on mcm3 few years back?

Funny  

(I do hope you're kidding..)

[.....]

Still curious of definitive answer to charging specs and number of ports.... Fwiw, Jack was offered a 'locked' thread for himself. He declined but perhaps NOW he is seeing that an open thread has the benefit of keeping interest and being derailed at same time and a locked thread would be a faster resource with different benefits.

Edited April 10, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

4 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Still curious of definitive answer to charging specs and number of ports.... Fwiw, Jack was offered a 'locked' thread for himself. He declined but perhaps NOW he is seeing that an open thread has the benefit of keeping interest and being derailed at same time and a locked thread would be a faster resource with different benefits.

I can imagine that @Jack King Songwas also a bored from the never ending corporate espionage discussion. If I were him, I'd get into something a little more meaningful. 

[.....]

Perhaps, tho I could care less. Noone needs my opinion on business ethics as its a gross generalization that doesnt differentiate between chinese companies. Im just wondering if the sks18 supports dual chargers. Im also wondering WHO at ks accidently left that 'fox' sticker on and is now regretting it(jk, i really dont care)? I see no issue as I bet they just used it to hold the format and size and probably already had intended to supply an aftermarket with matching dimensions. What showing that shock DID do, was assure me that I can upgrade to a fox shock, thus feeding FOX my money in the future.  fwiw.. without this long wandering thread, I WOULD NOT have gotten as excited and surely wouldnt have an sks18 on preorder. Even in madness, good things can come.   Heres a fact for the suspension noobs...  Your shock and moving linkage WILL wear out and need servicing. If you arent familiar with that, you are in for a surprise soon.

Edited April 10, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[AtlasP]

24 minutes ago, B08AH said:

And S18 is actually superior tech - most of the EUC mass is suspended, battery and all, not just pedals.

As has been mentioned, this could make the wiring between the suspended part and the motor a major contender for failure. One of the strong benefits of the V11 design is that all electronics/wiring remain on a single side of the two moving portions. There is hardly a 'superior' here until we can see teardowns of the designs and again after some wear.

Edited April 10, 2020 by AtlasP

[meepmeepmayer]

This discussion topic has been split from the official info topic. Now you can post all your hopes, dreams, rumors, speculation, and Chooch fan stories and whatever else about the S18 without reservation

Official info on the S18 can be found in the topic shown below. No discussion there please. You can cross-topic-quote posts from there into here by using the small "+" button next to the quote function.

Edited April 11, 2020 by meepmeepmayer

[B08AH]

1 hour ago, AtlasP said:

One of the strong benefits of the V11 design is that all electronics/wiring remain on a single side of the two moving portions. There is hardly a 'superior' here

superior as in less unsprung weight.

[AtlasP]

1 minute ago, B08AH said:

superior as in less unsprung weight.

Even that is hardly superior. Yes, you're isolating some of those components from shock, but shock to those components has hardly been a significant issue with traditional (non-suspension) EUCs--shock from crashes is, but not just shock from riding/road vibration. (Virtually nobody is damaging their batteries or electronics on EUCs just from road vibration.)

Conversely having those components above the shock is putting more weight on the shock which could instead be used towards more cushion for the rider. And that's in addition to the aforementioned issue of potential stress on the cabling between the motor (below the shock) and the other components (above).

On paper it would seem inferior if anything.

[B08AH]

Just now, AtlasP said:

Even that is hardly superior. Yes, you're isolating some of those components from shock

it is not for isolating components, it for better working suspension, better grip with the surface, better control, better dampening. Just physics, sprung to unsprung ratio and all.

And btw, there is a lot of e-scooters with suspension, are there any problems with engine-to-controller wiring reliability? I kinda doubt it.

4 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

On paper it would seem inferior if anything.

In parallel universe, maybe.

[.....]

Inferior? Seriously? So you mean that when you reduce the amount of total weight and inertia of the part needing stabilized (the wheel assembly), you are in fact making it WORSE on shock dampening ability? I am utterly confused, as I had always known that when you minimize the weight of the part that is being dampened, it enables the shock to work less to do the dampening

I fail to see why this is confusing so many people. I also dont see why flexing of cables is that big a worry. ALL my vehicles have brake hoses and some have brake/abs wires. In the many years of being a tech, I can tell you that the movement of wires and hoses across a control arm, was almost NEVER a point of failure. You do realize that *EVERY suspension wheel is going to have wires that go from the body to the wheel, thus inviting the same 'problem' of wires moving, *ALL of them .  I can say this... im looking pretty closely at the sliding mechanism inno is using and am wondering if slotted plastic for rails is going to be a long wearing and smooth part (since we are all SO DAMN WORRIED about a little dust getting into points of motion).  At least rebuilding a shock on regular basis will keep me entertained on wet/cold days.

*Untrue claim, my apologies

Edited April 10, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

1 hour ago, AtlasP said:

Conversely having those components above the shock is putting more weight on the shock which could instead be used towards more cushion for the rider. 

Then probably all manufacturers of bicycles, motorcycles and motor vehicles are complete idiots, because they keep the unsprung mass as low as possible, instead of simply using air-suspended seats and doing without the previous suspension? 

 

1 hour ago, AtlasP said:

And that's in addition to the aforementioned issue of potential stress on the cabling between the motor (below the shock) and the other components (above).

I wonder with what kind of witchcraft it was possible that the cables of the ABS sensors lasted a car's lifetime, even the brake pad wear indicator remains until they are replaced after around 20.000 - 50.000 km because of brake pad changes.

 

Update:

@ShanesPlanet has written already about ABS and wires, sorry, that was a lot of Text 

Edited April 10, 2020 by buell47

[.....]

On 4/9/2020 at 3:07 PM, Jack King Song said:

Currently my engineer has told me nothing above 5a is fine. 

Thank you for clarification.

As Im already an owner of a KS 84v wheel with 2.5amp charger(sks18 pre-ordered too), it behooves me to know

1.Is the sks18 going to have 2 of those yellow usb charge ports?

2.Will the sks18 ship with a 5amp charger?

3.Do the rear tubes house some form of spring to assist in dampening, or are they merely for alignment stability (teflon slides i hope)?

4.Do you plan on having 'suspension rebuild kits' that include bushings and points of wear parts, for sale at reasonable cost with abundant availability?

5.How many panels (plastic) in total, and is there ideas in place to offer those parts for replace? ( I plan on beating the SHIT out of my wheel)

6.Will there be a release video that shows use on a surface that is NOT man made.. like trails and mud?

7.most importantly... Will the wheel 'hold my beer and watch this'?

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[.....]

27 minutes ago, buell47 said:

Then probably all manufacturers of bicycles, motorcycles and motor vehicles are complete idiots, because they keep the unsprung mass as low as possible, instead of simply using air-suspended seats and doing without the previous suspension? 

 

I wonder with what kind of witchcraft it was possible that the cables of the ABS sensors lasted a car's lifetime, even the brake pad wear indicator remains until they are replaced after around 20.000 - 50.000 km because of brake pad changes.

to be fair, usually the installer breaks those pad wear cables, or the driver waits so long they get into backing plates. It is common for those cheapo aftermarket parts that incorporate part of the harness, to fail at the wire. Done right, wiring is a non-issue.

perfectly succinct analogy about the suspension on the seat. I mean how great and cheap is that!

I dont charge here for my free fiction novels... enjoy (i'll edit myself more in the future.. apologies for rambling so damn much)

Edited April 10, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

EVERY suspension wheel is going to have wires that go from teh body to the wheel, thus inviting the same 'problem' of wires moving, ALL of them.

Seems the V11 doesn’t though. There is simply nothing on the ”saddle” section that seem to require any wires.

The cabling on the S18 sure can be made in a way that causes no issues, but I think the worry comes from the fact that there are no tried and true methods of doing that for EUCs specifically. And since EUC manufacturers are pretty good at eventually messing even some obvious things up, it’s just a possible point of failure on their part.

[.....]

20 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Seems the V11 doesn’t though. There is simply nothing on the ”saddle” section that seem to require any wires.

The cabling on the S18 sure can be made in a way that causes no issues, but I think the worry comes from the fact that there are no tried and true methods of doing that for EUCs specifically. And since EUC manufacturers are pretty good at eventually messing even some obvious things up, it’s just a possible point of failure on their part.

I stand corrected, thank you! Its foreign design to me, i somehow thought the power button and batt gauge was placed otherwise. Again, I was WRONG and hell, I even used caps lock to be wrong. So yes, it seems the sks18 has to overcome the issue of repetitive wire flex and the inno does not. The inno setup is more similar a bicycle seat with springs, in essence(yes, a gross depiction based on my own perception).  I humbly apologize for blatantly misleading anyone with my statement about every one of them having moving wires. Can we call it ignorance, rather than lying? Obviously I havent been drooling over the v11 pics.

Edited April 10, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Yxzygäilijä]

21 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

There is simply nothing on the ”saddle” section that seem to require any wires.

There is the anti-spin button which requires.

[.....]

5 minutes ago, Yxzygäilijä said:

There is the anti-spin button which requires.

   (i'm laughing my ass off...insanity creeping closer) Good catch Yxz!

Edited April 10, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[.....]

8.What is the cause of wear in this photo? (I'm thinking the wire loom protector, im sure you'll easily solve it)

9.What is the grade of bolts in axle pinch assembly and where foot pedals mount? (Obviously not stainless on both, tho stainless is but one viable option of many).

10.Is the upholstered material at the upper leg area going into final product as a padded rest area? (looks like it and the handle area will be hi-risk replacement areas)

11.Is stock of replacement cast alloy suspension parts going to be available at resellers worldwide?

12.Can i get a picture of the front and rear profile? (headlight section seems a little 'unfinished'?)

13.Are most of the questions moot, as you may be still in 'design' phase? Perhaps ALL images are merely that of a prototype?

Edited April 11, 2020 by ShanesPlanet