King Song S18 Discussion

[.....]

40 minutes ago, Dave Wood said:

specs wise i don't see how anyone would choose this over the V11 apart from possibly the weight due to a smaller battery,  V11 has bigger battery, a smart bms, better lights, 21700 cells! the S18  from what iv read  is still using yesteryear  18650 cells (correct me if im wrong)...  we've seen both suspension systems working, granted only briefly so far but the v11 seems far smoother, where as the S18 was extremely clumpy and noisy and probably why Kuji added in music to his video to cover it up. i wont even get in to the open body which is a magnet to dust, water and all other debris so i certainly hope it's more resistant to the elements than the 16x was. the only plus sign i could see that the s18 has over the v11 is basically appearance and even that's subjective. it's like nobodies learned their lessons from another wheel that everybody drooled over, the z10.

 

 

These are simply why I chose it, total opinion, most based on less than fact. You seem to be fairly adamant about preferring the inno, and you seem to be on the KS page to do so. Just an observation, and you are entitled to your opinion and specs do indeed speak for themselves. Anyhow, here's why I chose to adopt, even tho I am in the dark like everyone else.

1.. I enjoy kingsong quality from the 18L I own, and THIS seems like more of the same

2.. Battery tech is what it is.. I want more, but am willing to settle with current compromises required

3..pedal angle and comfort on the 18L seems fine to me and I recognize the build quality, I assume this is just how KS tries to operate

3. Lighter weight. My 18L is already at the brink of what I want to carry and what I want leaning on my leg.

4. I can see the suspension and it  instantly was recognizable from what I already understand.

5. Looks cool to me and it being open is something I dont mind at all on my other off-road/street vehicles. Easy to inspect the moving suspension parts.

6.I have no real need for powerful mounted lights

7.The articulation of the entire structure of the sks18 seems more familar to me, than the format inno is using.

8.It just SEEMS like the sks18 would roll end over end and survive, as its a more rounded design and the shock hides when unloaded.

9.I don't care about chinese company politics, Im an american consumer and I've my own to worry about. Im buying chinese... thats the end of my moral issues..

10.Kingsong is what I am familiar with, I have outlets for direct communications, and Im just simply biased.

11. I assume KS learned from the ass kicking they got from some mistakes on the 16x... nothing promotes better development than an ass kicking.

12. I HATE the limits KS puts on speeds, and I LOVE that they are forcing it on me. Protecting me from myself sucks, but in the game of output/batteries, Im a shade ignorant.

13.The price seems right and I trust e-wheels with Kingsong.

Now, you cant argue these points nor should you care. My personal reasons for buying one over the other, are merely opinion. I am entitled to them, they are loosely based on fact and fiction, and it is what it is. You however, wont find me on the inno side, ranting about how I KNOW the sks18 is better, nor will you find me ranting on here about how I KNOW the sks18 is better. This is the sks18 thread, so you WILL find me here, chatting about my opinions on the sks18 and perhaps loosely mentioning the inno. My bias keeps me from commenting so much on the Inno release thread. I can see why someone would prefer the inno also. It didnt offer me more speed and range than my 18L, so I was not excited. The sks18 doesnt offer me that either. So, I will accept that I cant get whatt I want in speed/range/weight just yet, and will drool and hope that i find joy in focusing on the new suspension tech. IN the end, I am sure most ALL new wheels from these companies, will be exciting in their own rights, and will provoke joy for a myriad of uses for a myriad of people with varying tastes. Of course, if their tastes arent aligned with mine, I'll simply chalk it up as insanity and smile. Theres more to a purchase than just specs, specially when specs are manufacturer published. Now that I've ppublished MY list, can those be consider MY specs for why i pre-ordered?

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Rehab1]

2 hours ago, Phong Vu said:

ok... Sold my V8 5 minutes ago...

I money is ready for whichever wheel come out of the suspension battle...

I have a feeling more wheels will be on the auction block before this party is over. 

[Stillhart]

41 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

I have a feeling more wheels will be on the auction block before this party is over. 

I'll be doing my part to fund someone's purchase of a S18, keeping a close eye on the sale forum!

[fryman]

46 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

I have a feeling more wheels will be on the auction block before this party is over. 

Pass the butter 

[null]

A point I like about the S18 is that the electronics and batteries (AFAIK) benefit from the shock absorption. It might not have been a particular problem, but still.

Edited April 10, 2020 by null

[Marty Backe]

Lacking Torque

After hearing Kuji talk more about the S18, it's feeling more like a solid beginner/intermediate wheel. Very comfortable to ride and forgiving with bumps, potholes, etc. But it's not fast (we all knew that) and surprisingly, to me, not a lot of torque. The MSP kills it in that department.

This is a disappointment to me because I was hoping for a killer trail wheel (with the small battery, the trails are the only place to really enjoy a long slow ride) that could take the bumps and climb. Looks like that's not in the cards.

For us KingSong fans, best stick with the 16X if you want power.

[.....]

That is news for sure. Im not overjoyed to hear you say that. I havent seen any interviews, am i missing some released information from Kuji, or is this something you just happened to know?

[Marty Backe]

Just now, ShanesPlanet said:

That is news for sure. Im not overjoyed to hear you say that. I havent seen any interviews, am i missing some released information from Kuji, or is this something you just happened to know?

We have some semi-private chats going (invite only group)

[Marty Backe]

Gotway knows how to build a torque monster of a wheel, so we'll probably have to wait for their version of a suspension wheel that can kill the hills.

[gon2fast]

On 4/7/2020 at 4:01 PM, Jack King Song said:

 

Introducing the King Song S18, a wheel like never before. Move in ultimate Style and Comfort featuring an on board Adjustable Suspension System.

 

Jack  - how hard/easy is it to change the shock (if I wanted to replace with a Fox for example)? 

Same question for changing tire.

Thanks

Bought one,

please answer.

Thanks again

[xorbe]

I think the smaller 84V 3P battery says a lot.  My take from that is this a sweet looking wheel for the casual urban rider that doesn't ride so far or fast.  Suspension, style, but not a lot of performance chops.

Quote

... Gotway ...

I wanted to post a spoof thread in the gotway subforum titled "exclusive! Gotway MS-fleX (w/suspension)" but I missed April 1^st by a week, and I didn't want to cause any heart attacks.

Edited April 10, 2020 by xorbe

[Kuji Rolls]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Lacking Torque

After hearing Kuji talk more about the S18, it's feeling more like a solid beginner/intermediate wheel. Very comfortable to ride and forgiving with bumps, potholes, etc. But it's not fast (we all knew that) and surprisingly, to me, not a lot of torque. The MSP kills it in that department.

This is a disappointment to me because I was hoping for a killer trail wheel (with the small battery, the trails are the only place to really enjoy a long slow ride) that could take the bumps and climb. Looks like that's not in the cards.

For us KingSong fans, best stick with the 16X if you want power.

It shouldnt be a surprise that this cant compete with the MSP torque. That thing is just a monster at that... I think the S18 is a near ideal beginner/intermediate wheel that handles similar to the 16X with a much cushier ride. I think even experienced riders would also have good things to say. Its pretty decent at off-roading and bumpy trails too. But if all you care about is top speed and torque, then Gotway dominates that department at the moment. 

[.....]

10 minutes ago, Kuji Rolls said:

It shouldnt be a surprise that this cant compete with the MSP torque. That thing is just a monster at that... I think the S18 is a near ideal beginner/intermediate wheel that handles similar to the 16X with a much cushier ride. I think even experienced riders would also have good things to say. Its pretty decent at off-roading and bumpy trails too. But if all you care about is top speed and torque, then Gotway dominates that department at the moment. 

Hmm... Thanks for your honest opinions on it. I had planned on kicking its ass on the trail and dedicating it to that. Now it sounds like I may do better by considering it a street spare for the 18L, or vice versa.  Any plans to walk on over and help the 'other' guys with a realistic test ride?

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

5 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

You seem to be fairly adamant about preferring the inno, and you seem to be on the KS page to do so. Just an observation, and you are entitled to your opinion and specs do indeed speak for themselves.

Thanks, you saved me from writing. 

[Marty Backe]

27 minutes ago, Kuji Rolls said:

It shouldnt be a surprise that this cant compete with the MSP torque. That thing is just a monster at that... I think the S18 is a near ideal beginner/intermediate wheel that handles similar to the 16X with a much cushier ride. I think even experienced riders would also have good things to say. Its pretty decent at off-roading and bumpy trails too. But if all you care about is top speed and torque, then Gotway dominates that department at the moment. 

I'm certainly looking forward to get my copy. I love the looks and am looking forward to the unique ride experience (and my knees aren't what they used to be).

Variety is fun 

[fbhb]

10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm certainly looking forward to get my copy. I love the looks and am looking forward to the unique ride experience (and my knees aren't what they used to be).

Variety is fun 

My sentiments exactly (although my knees are still OK, it can't help to safeguard them & keep them feeling OK with a suspension wheel) I only own the Tesla & the Z10 (unlike yourself ), so I have No downsides with battery size, which seems to be the main issue for most people along with speed.  Top speed is Never Ever going to be a King Song thing, so 50kph is fine by me too!

So for me there are No downsides that I can see, other than my much loved Z10 getting jealous!  Will need to have a chat with @The Fat Unicyclist to see if he can hook me up with a pre-order!

Edited April 10, 2020 by fbhb

[mrelwood]

 

8 hours ago, Dave Wood said:

IP rating ... certification ...

My understanding is that the manufacturer themselves can announce an IP rating just like they do with the nominal wattage rating of the motor. An actual certification is applied from an official party that inspects the product. My guess is that all EUCs with any mention of IP is just an IP rating they did themselves, and stating "certification" in the specs is a combination of misunderstanding and bad translation.

8 hours ago, Will R said:

Gotway's statement saying there will be no more wheels this year

This is news to me. In the winter they still mentioned three new wheels for 2020. MSP came up as the first, so there should still be a 20/22" wheel and a smaller city wheel remaining.

 

 

These virtual teardowns and scrutiny on technical abilities and detailed comparisons have gone way past proportions... (based on a few cell phone videos of the prototypes). 

8 hours ago, Stillhart said:

Well what's not safe is expecting a suspension to absorb all of a shock and then it doesn't.

I'm pretty sure that outside of racing, a sub-optimal tuning of the suspension hasn't been a cause for many motorcycle crashes, if any. Your approach seems that of a person's with motorcycle background, and perhaps even in track racing, motocross or such. Guys, this is an ELECTRIC SELF-BALANCING UNICYCLE. It is inherently unsuitable for any kind of racing. Sure, there are guys who ride fast... on smooth tarmac. If you are planning on going flat out EUC Extreme on the S18 or V11, then I understand that a precise multi-parameter tuning of the shock would be beneficial. Anything less and I'm confident that the suspension will be very useful to everybody, as is.

Will I test the adjustments and different pressures on my V11? Absolutely, I do that on everything. Would I buy the V11 if the shock had zero adjustments? Absolutely.

fEvery rider has learned that there are limits to what (s)he or the wheel can ride over. Suspension will extend most of those limits, even if the shock isn't pressurized properly for the rider's weight. Of course the limits still exist, so S18 and V11 riders are forced to re-learn them. No rider (with a half of a brain cell remaining) is going to ride in risky situations expecting the suspension to function in a certain way without thoroughly experiencing and familiarizing with the behaviour first.

7 hours ago, Stillhart said:

This is exactly my point though.  You and I have a clear understanding of what to expect.

No rider knew what to expect from how the EUC handles before learning to ride. A suspension will not change the basic concept of riding, or the relationship between the rider's familiarity of the wheel and one's decisions to take risks. 

7 hours ago, Stillhart said:

I'm looking at that video of the V11 and going "based off that video, I'm expecting it to be shit and I'd rather have nothing".  For people without a lot of experience tuning suspensions on other vehicles, they might not be aware of the limitations.

If you are familiar with suspension systems, and you already know that both S18 and V11 have adjustable shocks that are to be pressurized to be suitable for the rider's weight, how on earth are you making such assumptions based on videos on prototypes?! Some videos might be ones where they just test the extremes of the adjustment, and shoot it on video for the engineers.

I get it, I'm comparing the two as well with every tidbit of info or video clip we get. But I'm perfectly aware that until the products are shipped to customers and someone knowledgeable makes a direct comparison, we can assume absolutely nothing about the differences in the S18 and V11 suspensions or even riding behaviour in general. KS has a clear advantage in product visibility since they got Kuji Rolls to take part in designing and marketing, but it doesn't directly make for a better product. And since Kuji himself says that the S18 is still lacking in torque and acceleration, if anything the V11 looks like the better product so far.

7 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

A soft shock will absorb small bumps and make for a nice ride. A hard shock will only help compensate for large bumps, not jumping, or jumping but not large or small bumps.

No. Hard, soft and medium shocks will all help absorb all kinds of bumps. Suspension is not a switch that turns on only for a certain type of bump. Being sub-optimally or even badly adjusted doesn't switch the suspension off. We are after all comparing the S18 and V11 in the marketplace where all other wheels have zero suspension. If Fox is slightly better absorbing a certain situation than RockShox, cool. But it wouldn't matter to 99% of the customers. They are both still atleast a thousand bazillyard times better than the current alternative.

7 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

10 cm is not enough travel to "do it all" (even on a progressive shock), so King Song focused on making the ride smooth, leaving large bumps to the rider to manage intelligently.

They did, huh? What size of bump (angle and height) did they have as a design limit? Just so that I know what size bumps I can safely ride into with locked knees. 

 

 

7 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

The batteries are rated for 500 full cycles (about 2 years, the expected lifespan of the product)

Remember, a full charge cycle of a li-ion cell is from full charge to the rated minimum of a cell, which is usually 2.5V. Emptying an EUC battery by riding only gets you about 60% of a full cell cycle. A full cell cycle translates to 120-150km of range. 120 * 500 = 60 000 km = 37 000 miles. No rider gets there in two years, not even me!

7 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

considering the suspension will dissipate some of the energy as heat (making the wheel less efficient).

My guess is that if anything, suspension could slightly increase the range in the same way a softer riding mode does. Not having to ramp up the power as much for getting up small bumps should be beneficial.

 

 

5 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

1.4kg of that is the smaller battery compared to the V11

And the rest is the outer shell that the S18 doesn't have... 

[.....]

6 hours ago, Dave Wood said:

the S18  from what iv read  is still using yesteryear  18650 cells (correct me if im wrong)... 

 

 

The specs say you are wrong... this has been your correction.   The pack is configured in a 20S3P/60 cell configuration, using the LG M50T 5Ah 21700 format cells, for total capacity of 1,1110Wh.  (ewheels specs on website)     I havent personally been able to confirm these specs.

Edited April 10, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

10 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

Where is the spring? I only see a shock.

 

10 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

im guessing in the rear fork tubes as the front 2 are handle stow.

No spring, it's a Air Shock. 

 

[.....]

35 minutes ago, buell47 said:

 

No spring, it's a Air Shock. 

 

that answers that. See, i just ASSUMED they would use the 2 rear tubes as spring and alignment support (in addition to the rear air shock). It will be fun to see EXACTLY how this is put together, once its in the wild!

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[.....]

Hey jack!

I just want to know...

Is it going to have dual charge ports? I already have an 84v 2.5amp KS charger. Seems a nice bonus if i could use it with the charger supplied with purchase of the sks18.

I hear that 5amp is all KS is going to stand behind as max charge for the sks18?

With a 6 hr charge time, Im guessing the stock charger will be 5amp? 

Will it "hold my beer and watch this"?

Clarify this for us a little please.

Edited April 10, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Rafal]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Emptying an EUC battery by riding only gets you about 60% of a full cell cycle. A full cell cycle translates to 120-150km of range. 120 * 500 = 60 000 km = 37 000 miles. No rider gets there in two years, not even me!

60% of full cycle is  going from 4.20V to 3.67v. Below 3.3V for GW or 3V for KS only few % of energy is avialable.  Look at the discharge test of any li-ion cell. So I would say EUC full cycle is more like 85-95% of a full cell cycle. 

120km is a lie. In real life it will be closer to 50-60km. So even taking 60km X 500 = 30 000km. Not mention that after 500 cycles battery cell will remain about 80% of capacity. So it will be doing in avarage not 60 km but lets say 53km. Avarage durning those 500 cycles. So it ill be 500x53km =26 500km. And we are talking about light rider or  riding slow. Otherwise it will be again much less. 

[Espen R]

I can’t wait for Chooch to review the S18, but late last night I thought of this somewhat disturbing scenario:

Chooch gets the wheel, and once it is fully charged, he rides up to his mountain trail playground, but when he arrives, he realizes there isn’t enough charge left to do a proper trail test. Chooch is a man of the wild, he’s always prepared and carries a small tent in his pocket, so he finds a cabin with an outdoor outlet, starts to charge the wheel, hunts down a small pray for breakfast, and settles in for the night in his tent. When the first light hits the mountains, he wakes up to disturbing sounds. Chooch knows the wild, and he knows there is a bear outside his tent. With his superhuman hearing, he knows exactly where the bear is located, and it’s between the tent and the wheel. The bear is right beneath the tree where he hung up his breakfast, a sparrow he caught with his bare hands, so he knows the bear is occupied. That’s his chance. He opens the tent and runs towards the wheel so fast that the first sound the bear hears is when he turns the wheel on. Now the chase begins, and it is an epic chase, and of course he records everything.

Chooch heads for the hills, he knows he has to even the odds. A bear can run at 50kph (31mph), so at level ground the bear will be able to keep up and even catch him, because bear suspension is better than Kingmotion, Chooch knows that. After 5 mins of hard riding, he can now feel the bear’s breath on his neck, he reaches the hill. Instantly he opens up a gap, the bear can’t keep up uphill, but just a few moments later he hears the fast chilling beeps from the wheel. It’s the 80% warning, and for Chooch a wheel is like a part of his body, so he knows he has to slow down. The bear gains on him again. In a giant leap the bear lashes out towards him, and he can feel how the bear claws tear through his flesh down his back, but the top of the hill is close, and Chooch knows bears can’t run fast downhill. He makes it to the top, and rides down the hill faster than any human, faster than the laws of physics. The bear gives up, but Chooch is so full of adrenaline, he doesn’t slow down. The wheel is at 30%, but the adrenaline clouds his judgment. He goes for a major jump, and the wheel can’t take the landing, it cuts out, and Chooch smashes to the ground face first. The camera on the selfie stick points to the sky, and all we can hear is a raspy heavy breathing and grunts of pain. Suddenly the camera starts to move. Chooch is pulling it towards him. He faces the camera and we can see his smashed-up face. One eye is missing and the top of his skull is crushed, it is the end for Chooch. We know it, and he knows it. With painful effort he opens his mouth. A blood gurgling voice tries to form his last words, and we can barely hear them, a faint painful whisper comes out: Thank you @Jason McNeil , for sending me this wheel.

[Rywokast]

3 minutes ago, Espen R said:

I can’t wait for Chooch to review the S18, but late last night I thought of this somewhat disturbing scenario:

 

Chooch gets the wheel, and once it is fully charged, he rides up to his mountain trail playground, but when he arrives, he realizes there isn’t enough charge left to do a proper trail test. Chooch is a man of the wild, he’s always prepared and carries a small tent in his pocket, so he finds a cabin with an outdoor outlet, starts to charge the wheel, hunts down a small pray for breakfast, and settles in for the night in his tent. When the first light hits the mountains, he wakes up to disturbing sounds. Chooch knows the wild, and he knows there is a bear outside his tent. With his superhuman hearing, he knows exactly where the bear is located, and it’s between the tent and the wheel. The bear is right beneath the tree where he hung up his breakfast, a sparrow he caught with his bare hands, so he knows the bear is occupied. That’s his chance. He opens the tent and runs towards the wheel so fast that the first sound the bear hears is when he turns the wheel on. Now the chase begins, and it is an epic chase, and of course he records everything.

Chooch heads for the hills, he knows he has to even the odds. A bear can run at 50kph (31mph), so at level ground the bear will be able to keep up and even catch him, because bear suspension is better than Kingmotion, Chooch knows that. After 5 mins of hard riding, he can now feel the bear’s breath on his neck, he reaches the hill. Instantly he opens up a gap, the bear can’t keep up uphill, but just a few moments later he hears the fast chilling beeps from the wheel. It’s the 80% warning, and for Chooch a wheel is like a part of his body, so he knows he has to slow down. The bear gains on him again. In a giant leap the bear lashes out towards him, and he can feel how the bear claws tear through his flesh down his back, but the top of the hill is close, and Chooch knows bears can’t run fast downhill. He makes it to the top, and rides down the hill faster than any human, faster than the laws of physics. The bear gives up, but Chooch is so full of adrenaline, he doesn’t slow down. The wheel is at 30%, but the adrenaline clouds his judgment. He goes for a major jump, and the wheel can’t take the landing, it cuts out, and Chooch smashes to the ground face first. The camera on the selfie stick points to the sky, and all we can hear is a raspy heavy breathing and grunts of pain. Suddenly the camera starts to move. Chooch is pulling it towards him. He faces the camera and we can see his smashed-up face. One eye is missing and the top of his skull is crushed, it is the end for Chooch. We know it, and he knows it. With painful effort he opens his mouth. A blood gurgling voice tries to form his last words, and we can barely hear them, a faint painful whisper comes out: Thank you @Jason McNeil , for sending me this wheel.

 

10/10 would watch

[.....]

1 minute ago, Rywokast said:

10/10 would watch

But would you subscribe and wait forever for the next vid?