King Song S18 Discussion

[.....]

18 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

KS originally designed the 18L as a 1036Wh wheel. They had to be pried to do the 18XL. Maybe they just don't think bigger batteries are important.

Surely they are aware? I mean hell, bitching about battery, speed and range has been the norm since...what year is this? Seriously tho, they HAVE to know. I wonder if it is merely a matter of end weight, end cost, legalities and abilities; why they seem to be sticking with the current ideals. Maybe the markup on batteries sucks for them? All this focus on it, HAS made me leery. I also want my 18L to go 45mph for 60 miles. I think we just need to keep bitching and bitching and the euc companies will keep having to push the limits and design items to ease the bitching. Obviously they think theyll sell enough units at the existing cost/specs, to justify the attempt. If the battery is a deal breaker, we speak with our wallets and the launch fails and they try again.

[gon2fast]

The S18 is not about large batteries and top speed, its focus is incorporating a functional suspension system into a EUC. I am very excited with what KS has brought to the table and I look forward to what GW is coming out with this Spring. I hope this discussion can refocus on what the S18 has to offer rather than the negative comments I have been reading for the past two days.

BTW - My primary wheel right now is a first generation InMotion V10. It has a small battery (650wh), but I still ride it everyday with a big ole smile on my face. One can still have fun without large batteries and break neck speeds. 

 

[Phong Vu]

I don't know... it's all about the sales.

Anyone know the sales figures for 18L vs 18XL? I wonder which wheel sold more.

Just think about this... they can make S18 with 2000WH battery, 2500W motor with 100V, top speed 70kmh, weight 35kg, $3000... and then around 30,40 guys here will buy it.

I'm pretty sure those weight and price will turn off the majority of the casual riders like myself.

[mrelwood]

 

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

bitching about battery, speed and range has been the norm since...what year is this?

Yes it has, but only amongst the most enthusiastic segment of the hobby. One has to realize that this forum represents just a tiny segment of riders, and I’m pretty sure that our forum average on anything is quite far from the real world average.

 

[Espen R]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Surely they are aware? I mean hell, bitching about battery, speed and range has been the norm since...what year is this? Seriously tho, they HAVE to know. I wonder if it is merely a matter of end weight, end cost, legalities and abilities; why they seem to be sticking with the current ideals. Maybe the markup on batteries sucks for them? All this focus on it, HAS made me leery. I also want my 18L to go 45mph for 60 miles. I think we just need to keep bitching and bitching and the euc companies will keep having to push the limits and design items to ease the bitching. Obviously they think theyll sell enough units at the existing cost/specs, to justify the attempt. If the battery is a deal breaker, we speak with our wallets and the launch fails and they try again.

Battery size isn’t really about speed or range, it’s about safety through headroom. A 1100wh battery would give enough range for most people, but it wouldn’t take long before the voltage would be too low for that motor, and the rider would be in great risk of cut outs. A 2200W motor together with a 1100wh battery is a dangerous combination even for casual riders, and even at fairly low speeds. That motor is thirsty, and it needs a lot of juice just to balance the wheel.

The GW MSP has a 2500W motor and a 1800wh battery pack, but the range is closer to the 18L than the MSX or 18XL, so for a 2200-2500W motor, a 1400-1800wh battery pack equals the 2000W 18L’s 1036wh. So, you won’t have a cool 50% battery capacity to play with before the wheel is power limited on the S18, like you do on the 18L, it will happen much sooner, and any peak in power, like a small bump or a light acceleration, could cause a cut out.

I’m not trying to be an asshole towards Kingsong or people who have pre-ordered the wheel, I just don’t want my favourite EUC brand to release a dangerous wheel that will cause a lot of harm to riders, and harm the public reputation of EUC’s. I don’t want anything bad to happen to Kingsong either, but if they release this wheel with this setup, they can’t blame anyone but themselves for the shitstorm they will receive.  

[Rywokast]

5 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

There is an option for Customers worried that the 1110Wh pack won't cut it for their needs, King Song have an external 780Wh power-bank, raising the total potential capacity to 1,890Wh, which we have in stock. This would require fitting into an back-pack & having a tether wire trickle charging the main pack @ 3A/84v (there's an output voltage toggle); while it's not perfect, it should be a workable solution. The price for this hardware is $650. 

 

where is this?? i have seen the original post when you made it, but never heard anything about it since nor have i ever seen it for sale... i would be very interested

[Eucenduro]

3 hours ago, Espen R said:

 

 

Battery size isn’t really about speed or range, it’s about safety through headroom. A 1100wh battery would give enough range for most people, but it wouldn’t take long before the voltage would be too low for that motor, and the rider would be in great risk of cut outs. A 2200W motor together with a 1100wh battery is a dangerous combination even for casual riders, and even at fairly low speeds. That motor is thirsty, and it needs a lot of juice just to balance the wheel.

 

The GW MSP has a 2500W motor and a 1800wh battery pack, but the range is closer to the 18L than the MSX or 18XL, so for a 2200-2500W motor, a 1400-1800wh battery pack equals the 2000W 18L’s 1036wh. So, you won’t have a cool 50% battery capacity to play with before the wheel is power limited on the S18, like you do on the 18L, it will happen much sooner, and any peak in power, like a small bump or a light acceleration, could cause a cut out.

 

I’m not trying to be an asshole towards Kingsong or people who have pre-ordered the wheel, I just don’t want my favourite EUC brand to release a dangerous wheel that will cause a lot of harm to riders, and harm the public reputation of EUC’s. I don’t want anything bad to happen to Kingsong either, but if they release this wheel with this setup, they can’t blame anyone but themselves for the shitstorm they will receive.  

I completely agree with you!
This is not about autonomy or how big the batteries are. it's about safety and degradation. Here no opinions are mathematical. 3p is for a 1500w motor. The ks16 is like a 16s you can never match a msx, a 16x or v10f. All with 4p.
therefore the problem here is marketing is a medium / beginner profile wheel. If you ask more than what you give if the 3p will come problems. So this is not an opinion, they are just numbers.

[Stillhart]

I'd like to ask a question without sounding like a troll... I don't know a lot about the technical stuff you're talking about.  But the V10 and V10F are both considered great wheels and both have less batteries than the S18.  I don't think I've ever read a bad thing about the V10 series other than it can overheat.  EDIT - The Tesla also has less batteries.

If we ignore the price for just a second, what makes this wheel so much worse/less safe than those wheels?

Edited April 12, 2020 by Stillhart

[Eucenduro]

2 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

I'd like to ask a question without sounding like a troll... I don't know a lot about the technical stuff you're talking about.  But the V10 and V10F are both considered great wheels and both have less batteries than the S18.  I don't think I've ever read a bad thing about the V10 series other than it can overheat.

If we ignore the price for just a second, what makes this wheel so much worse/less safe than those two wheels?

No my friend v10 is 4p the diffrent is huge. S18 3p not the same at all.

S18 is 3p like 16s

16x or v10 are 4p

The problem isnt the 1110wh the problem is 3p. 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Eucenduro

[Stillhart]

1 minute ago, Eucenduro said:

No my friend v10 is 4p the diffrent os huge.

 

Can anyone explain the difference as if I don't understand electronics at all?

[B08AH]

3 hours ago, Espen R said:

Battery size isn’t really about speed or range, it’s about safety through headroom

could you post one of your EUCWorld tracks? just wondering how much power you need.

 

PS On my 16X recordings i never go above 1100Watts , so S18 battery's short term limit of ~3KWatts is more than enough for me.

[B08AH]

19 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

No my friend v10 is 4p the diffrent is huge. S18 3p not the same at all.

It is actually 4p * 10Amps vs 3p*15Amps. S18 battery is more powerful, not less

[Phong Vu]

 

30 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

No my friend v10 is 4p the diffrent is huge. S18 3p not the same at all.

The problem isnt the 1110wh the problem is 3p. 

 

Can you explain further? some links will help as well.
Try to do a quick google but not get any good details yet.

[Eucenduro]

6 minutes ago, Phong Vu said:

 

Can you explain further? some links will help as well.
Try to do a quick google but not get any good details yet.

5000mah LG
3p battery support 1.200w motor and they put 2200w
15000mah
15a X 74v = 1110 wh ks s18
You need 4p for this wheel. 3p is not enought degradate and dangerous.
This 3p battery Will be a Big problem on this wheel, we'll see it.

In short words the motor is too big for what the battery gives. They will have to put a limitation per board or software so that the motor works as a 1,500w and not 2,200w. Since there would be a very serious problem. So it is not a problem of battery capacity but of the configuration of the same for the motor that has this wheel.

I repeat that these are numbers. not an opinion I'm not a troll or anything like that. but if simple mathematics lie. and the numbers are what they are. Therefore putting a 2,200w motor when the batteries cannot function correctly is an error. I ask Kingsong to listen to this because there are still times to look for a real solution. There are two options:

put 4p and keep the 2,200w motor

or leave the 3p and lower the motor to 1,500w.

We talked about rendomiendo the wheel not autonomy remember it.

19 minutes ago, B08AH said:

It is actually 4p * 10Amps vs 3p*15Amps. S18 battery is more powerful, not less

That is ))

Edited April 12, 2020 by Eucenduro

[Rehab1]

13 hours ago, Afeez Kay said:

KS-s18 in Red? Automobile paint job with darkened rim? @Marty Backe

The S18 in @Marty Backe red.

 

[Phong Vu]

21 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

5000mah LG
3p battery support 1.200w motor and they put 2200w
15000mah
15a X 74v = 1110 wh ks s18
You need 4p for this wheel. 3p is not enought degradate and dangerous.
This 3p battery Will be a Big problem on this wheel, we'll see it.

...

put 4p and keep the 2,200w motor

or leave the 3p and lower the motor to 1,500w.

We talked about rendomiendo the wheel not autonomy remember it.

First, I'm not say you're wrong, I'm just still not understand the point.

Let me repeat what I'm reading around.
So, for the wheels what you mentioned (V10F, 16X, etc..), they're using 3500mAh cells, config in 4p = 1400mAh.
This S18 wheel's using 5000mAh cells, config in 3p =  1500mAh.

Beside connect parallel cells to achieve larger cell for the battery pack (which show that S18 is larger), what is the downside of 3p vs 4p?
 
Again, I'm asking because I'm not understand, I want to know more.  

[mrelwood]

 

3 hours ago, Espen R said:

The GW MSP has a 2500W motor and a 1800wh battery pack, but the range is closer to the 18L than the MSX or 18XL

@Marty Backe got 61 miles out of the MSP and 57 miles from the 1600Wh 84V MSX. A 2500W motor is not much more "thirsty" than a 2000W motor. I'd imagine that riders who get a lot less range on the MSP, ride fast and furious. The motor is capable of using more power, but for the same input (same amount of lean) at a relaxed cruising speed, it doesn't appear to be much less effective.

Since we are churning numbers, it's worthy of understanding how the motor wattage rating is concieved. Because it's not derived by math very much. The nominal wattage rating is the amount power that the motor can sustain for extended perioids of time without overheating. If you improve only the cooling, the same exact motor gets a higher nominal wattage rating without any change in the electrical behaviour. The motor doesn't become automatically more "thirsty".

Since the power of the hub motors in an EUC seems to be mainly controlled by the magnet width, a more powerful motor does increase the length and therefore the resistance of the coils. But wether the change in resistance makes a notable difference, or wether it is alleviated by a different coil thickness or the amount of wrappings or wether the motor becomes actually more effective... I don't know.

What I do know is that when talking about the S18 motor, we should look at the 18XL, not Gotway. Does the 2200W 18XL get less range or does it have less high speed torque than the 2000W 18XL?

2 minutes ago, Phong Vu said:

Can you explain further?

The issue comes from the voltage drop under stress, which is higher the less batteries you have in parallel. A 4p pack has a lower internal resistance by itself and more cells to share the load with, so the voltage doesn't drop as far as with a 3p pack.

[Eucenduro]

8 minutes ago, Phong Vu said:

First, I'm not say you're wrong, I'm just still not understand the point.

Let me repeat what I'm reading around.
So, for the wheels what you mentioned (V10F, 16X, etc..), they're using 3500mAh cells, config in 4p = 1400mAh.
This S18 wheel's using 5000mAh cells, config in 3p =  1500mAh.

Beside connect parallel cells to achieve larger cell for the battery pack (which show that S18 is larger), what is the downside of 3p vs 4p?
 
Again, I'm asking because I'm not understand, I want to know more.  

Sorry bro, my english is not as good as I would like. I didn't want to be rude. I was just trying to answer your question. What happens is that it makes me angry that people think it is a capacity problem and it is not a question of wh ks about voltage. The 3p setting causes the batteries to suffer brutal degradation. And it is something that all users should know.

Greetings Bro and I am sorry if it is rude in my previous message was not my intention))

[B08AH]

 

23 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

3p battery support 1.200w motor and they put 2200w

 Here is my regular tour on 16X, which has the same motor as S18 - https://euc.world/tour/585461448785137  

Most of the time the wheel draws less than 1000W,  few peaks of 1200Watt, one peak of 1500Watt in one hour ride. 

 

There is no such thing as battery supporting motor or not. Battery is just a weak link in this chain and it limits how fast you can ride and how intensive you can accelerate. If you put motor with double the power there,  it will still be able to output 1000-1500Watt and it will not become more dangerous.

 

 

 

[B08AH]

31 minutes ago, Phong Vu said:

what is the downside of 3p vs 4p?

It would make sense if element were the same. less parallels equal to less overall current which in turn means less power the battery can provide.

But the elements are not the same. 21700 elements are noticeably more powerful than 18650 elements. 

Edited April 12, 2020 by B08AH

[Eucenduro]

32 minutes ago, B08AH said:

 

 Here is my regular tour on 16X, which has the same motor as S18 - https://euc.world/tour/585461448785137  

Most of the time the wheel draws less than 1000W,  few peaks of 1200Watt, one peak of 1500Watt in one hour ride. 

 

There is no such thing as battery supporting motor or not. Battery is just a weak link in this chain and it limits how fast you can ride and how intensive you can accelerate. If you put motor with double the power there,  it will still be able to output 1000-1500Watt and it will not become more dangerous.

 

 

 

This that you put me is a city tour. but when you put the wheel in the field or off road the thing changes. For intermediate Riders this wheel we'll great. For agresive drivers inst.

You ride the 16x diffrent than i would ride. The degradation of the battery Will Come with the demanding drivers. For this euc world tour a 16s Will be great too.

This wheel (s18) is more similar like a 16s no 16x same motor but not same battery. 3p vs 4p is huge diffrent for pro drivers. 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Eucenduro

[Eucenduro]

This wheel isn't a top wheel with these configuration. The s18 Will be a great medium wheel. But 16x is much better. The s18 can do the same with a 1.500w motor. Because It never need more with these LG 3p battery. I think that kingsong put a 2.200w motor for a marketing reason. If they put a 1.500w motor you pay 1999$?

2.200w is better for marketing but these wheel isn't a top wheel. Is more like a 16s but with suspensión and good looking.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Eucenduro

[B08AH]

30 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

For intermediate Riders this wheel we'll great. For agresive drivers inst

Kuji said that as well. The wheel is expected to perform about the same as 18L, which not nearly the most powerful wheel, it won't perform nearly as good as XL or MSP, obviously.

[Stillhart]

I still don't get it.  You're saying that because of the type of battery they chose to use ("3p"), the motor will only output 1500W instead of the 2200W they claim?  And what's the practical effect of the lower wattage?  Less acceleration?  Is all this technical talk just trying to say that the wheel will perform worse than the "2200W motor" spec would lead us to believe?

Isn't this all stuff that will come to light when people start reviewing them?  What you're talking about it just that it's going to perform not great?  That seems different from safety issues or whatever.  We've already been told that it's a beginner/intermediate wheel from Kuji and I'm sure all the other reviewers will let us know what they really think as well.

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, Espen R said:

 

 

Battery size isn’t really about speed or range, it’s about safety through headroom. A 1100wh battery would give enough range for most people, but it wouldn’t take long before the voltage would be too low for that motor, and the rider would be in great risk of cut outs. A 2200W motor together with a 1100wh battery is a dangerous combination even for casual riders, and even at fairly low speeds. That motor is thirsty, and it needs a lot of juice just to balance the wheel.

 

The GW MSP has a 2500W motor and a 1800wh battery pack, but the range is closer to the 18L than the MSX or 18XL, so for a 2200-2500W motor, a 1400-1800wh battery pack equals the 2000W 18L’s 1036wh. So, you won’t have a cool 50% battery capacity to play with before the wheel is power limited on the S18, like you do on the 18L, it will happen much sooner, and any peak in power, like a small bump or a light acceleration, could cause a cut out.

 

I’m not trying to be an asshole towards Kingsong or people who have pre-ordered the wheel, I just don’t want my favourite EUC brand to release a dangerous wheel that will cause a lot of harm to riders, and harm the public reputation of EUC’s. I don’t want anything bad to happen to Kingsong either, but if they release this wheel with this setup, they can’t blame anyone but themselves for the shitstorm they will receive.  

@mrelwood already addressed this, but I feel obligated to reaffirm that there's no way in hell that the Gotway MSP gets the same range as the 18L. It's kind of a laughable assertion. To be precise (I own all wheels), the 1800wh MSP gets the same approximate range as the 1600wh KS18XL when ridden at the same speeds. Generally, KingSong wheels get exceptional range per WH of battery because they allow the cells to operate down to a lower voltage than Gotway.

Sure, if you ride the MSP at 35-mph it'll perform like the 18L (which tops on at 31-mph with the wind on your back), but that's not a fair comparison is it?