King Song S18 Discussion

[Stillhart]

1 minute ago, Rywokast said:

prepare your wallet because youre probably gonna see a lot of them in the coming months lol

I know, I know, it's awful.  I "need" a new wheel NOW though!! 

Seriously though, I feel like I've outgrown the E+ very quickly as I'm constantly hitting tiltback when I'm not even trying to push it and the battery is miniscule.  I have the money ready to go, but the used market is pretty slow right now.

[Rywokast]

25 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

I know, I know, it's awful.  I "need" a new wheel NOW though!! 

Seriously though, I feel like I've outgrown the E+ very quickly as I'm constantly hitting tiltback when I'm not even trying to push it and the battery is miniscule.  I have the money ready to go, but the used market is pretty slow right now.

yea it doesnt take much to outgrow a ninebot one xD i remember back in the day that was considered a fantastic wheel haha.. they have come very far in such a short amount of time. yea seems that way.. summer is just around the corner though so you will see more soon i think.. or it may be wise to wait until new wheels are released and see the influx in the used market or see if any dealers have good sales

[Phong Vu]

1 hour ago, Rywokast said:

regardless 2/3 $ is what you would normally get in perfect condition with low km.. you will have to throw that shipping cost in the garbage lol

that's why I said if the wheel is near by, wouldn't really want to ship a used wheel from the other side of the oceans

if people start to sell good used 18L for $1k soon, I gonna try get one regardless of S18 and V11.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Phong Vu

[Rywokast]

2 minutes ago, Phong Vu said:

that's why I said if the wheel is near by, wouldn't really want to ship a used wheel from the other side of the oceans

if people start to sell good used 18L for $1k soon, I gonna try get one regardless of S18 and V11.

yea well get on board.. you also live in canada haha the great majority of people looking to buy it or sell one will be in the states.. at least youre in toronto though, im on vancouver island shipping things is a major biotch. and hey! never hurts to have a backup wheel

[Jpd]

54 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

I know, I know, it's awful.  I "need" a new wheel NOW though!! 

Seriously though, I feel like I've outgrown the E+ very quickly as I'm constantly hitting tiltback when I'm not even trying to push it and the battery is miniscule.  I have the money ready to go, but the used market is pretty slow right now.

I’ll sell you a z10 😁

[Electric Dreams]

I want to address some concerns about the 3P pack issue. 

We are currently using LG M50T. Each cell is capable of a discharge current of 20A, 3P would result in 60a

60*72v= 4320W.

Aka:

There is plenty of torque and you will take full advantage of the motor.

 

PS: Please @ me if theres anything I've missed. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Jack King Song

[Electric Dreams]

I've created a Q&A to officially answer questions without the need for speculation. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Jack King Song

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

5 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

I want to address some concerns about the 3P pack issue. 

We are currently using LG M50T. Each cell is capable of a discharge current of 20A, 3P would result in 60a

60*72v= 4320W.

Aka:

There is plenty of torque and you will take full advantage of the motor.

If the reality looks like this and Torque, speed and throttling with decreasing battery capacity is not worse than on the 16X, you only have to make sure that charging with 8-10A is possible, then I buy it.  

Please install at least a charging connector and the appropriate wiring that can withstand 10A, then at least everyone can test it for himself if the board and battery can withstand 10A without having to disassemble the wheel first to change the cable and charging connector. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by buell47

[Chriull]

45 minutes ago, buell47 said:

If the reality looks like this and Torque, speed and throttling with decreasing battery capacity is not worse than on the 16X, you only have to make sure that charging with 8-10A is possible, then I buy it.  

Max specified charging current of the lg m50t is 3.4A - making 3*3.4A~10A...

I'd assume that the KS16X also has 3 BMS, so the current is one third per BMS.

For the s18 with 3 cells in parallel there could be just one BMS! So the input protection circuit would have to take the whole charging current...

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

31 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Max specified charging current of the lg m50t is 3.4A - making 3*3.4A~10A...

I'd assume that the KS16X also has 3 BMS, so the current is one third per BMS.

For the s18 with 3 cells in parallel there could be just one BMS! So the input protection circuit would have to take the whole charging current...

Oh shit, I didn't even think of BMS. Since the 16X has two batteries, it should have two BMS, right? 

[Eucenduro]

7 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

I want to address some concerns about the 3P pack issue. 

We are currently using LG M50T. Each cell is capable of a discharge current of 20A, 3P would result in 60a

60*72v= 4320W.

Aka:

There is plenty of torque and you will take full advantage of the motor.

 

PS: Please @ me if theres anything I've missed. 

Thats not true and not real 20a i dont know why you say that. But i dont wanna Talk more about that. I say here what happend about p-ness and when the wheel Will be on the market Will see what happend.

This is a real test with this battery LG M50T, if anyone want to see the real numbers un this batteries. 

14,53*3= 43,65 not 60!!!!!

So is 3330w not 4320w

When you climb with the 16x and look the eucworld numbers is normal to see 5.000w.

So this 16x w degradate the LG M50T Who only give 3330w. 

If somebody want to read real test, please check It this:

https://secondlifestorage.com/showthread.php?tid=7822

 

14,53a is is the maximum that it takes and It only takes a few miniseconds, at a certain momet. Does not work all the time on those numbers. The normal thing is that is between 7.5 and 10 but in no case 20 as they want us to belive. Im a enginner and work on aircraft batteries. I know about that and what i talking about. 

So the info is there i dont talk anymore about the 3p that Will be a huge problem on this wheel. We only need to wait and Will see what happend in real world.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Eucenduro

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

32 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

14,53*3= 43,65 not 60!!!!!

So is 3330w not 4320w

I think @Jack King Songis talking about 20A peak current.

You are talking about max. continuous discharge current. 

43.65A x 72V = 3142 Watt continuous discharge current 

Maybe I'm already confused by too many numbers myself, but now I wonder when I ever needed 3142 w continuous discharge current on my 16X?

Where is my mistake, I usually wonder why I am so sceptical? At least as far as 3p is concerned, the low capacity/range is still bad, of course. 

Come on King Song, at least 7.5A charge current. That's my last offer! 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by buell47

[Chriull]

30 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

https://secondlifestorage.com/showthread.php?tid=7822

 

14,53a is is the maximum that it takes and It only takes a few miniseconds, at a certain momet.

No - in your link the cell was discharged continously with 15A down to 2.5V!

Down to 3V it delivered still 3Ah with this 15A.

32 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

Thats not true and not real 20a

Why?

It for sure will deliver 20A - just with less capacity available and only as peak current. And some battery temp monitoring should be established if the design allows this too long.

But as peak burden it's no "problem".

But yes - it seems to be targeted more for "city riders" than "mountain climbers". Depending on driving style some higher current cells (40T) could have been a better choice...

We'll see how the wheel will perform. There will most presumably be a big enough market for this wheel. Just not for people looking for maximum range/acceleration...

[Eucenduro]

40 minutes ago, Chriull said:

But yes - it seems to be targeted more for "city riders" than "mountain climbers". Depending on driving style some higher current cells (40T) could have been a better choice...

I think that these wheel Will be amazing!!! I Will LOVE to ride It in pumptracks, skate park and urban places. S18 has a agresive and futurist look that i LOVE. It weigh is f*** amazing 22kg!!! And suspension!!!! I love to jump si i think that these wheel Will be the best on that. I was talking yesterday with @Jack King Song for test It on enduro and off Road ride. I want to test and see the numbers.

But is important for the future buyers that they know about 3p un these wheel. Because these wheel is not like 16x. Is important for us know all the info, and then is our choice.

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Eucenduro

[meepmeepmayer]

41 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

S18 has a agresive and futurist look that i LOVE.

When I first saw it, I thought it looks strange and needlessly complicated compared to Inmotion's solution. But I can appreciate that they suspended the entire wheel (sans motor+tire), which looks damn cool if you think about it! Now I'm a fan of the crazy looks.

Edited April 13, 2020 by meepmeepmayer
spelling

[Issah]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

When I first saw it, I thought it looks strange and needlessly complicated compared to Inmotion's solution. But I can appreciate that they suspended the entire wheel (sans motor+tire), which looks damn cool if you think about it! Now I'm a fan of the crazy looks.

I don't know if Inmotion has the whole assembly on the suspension, or if it's only the rider/Pedals that are on the suspension. But I know for a fact, that you want as much as possible of the assembly to be "Sprunt" if you want good suspension feel. It would feel sluggish and cumbersome if say, you only put the rider on the suspension, as Inertia will be added onto by the batteries as they travel up and down during bumps. If the S18 does this right, I'll be thrilled. Already looking forwards to my order of the wheel coming through.

[jimjam.nyc]

1 hour ago, Issah said:

I don't know if Inmotion has the whole assembly on the suspension, or if it's only the rider/Pedals that are on the suspension. But I know for a fact, that you want as much as possible of the assembly to be "Sprunt" if you want good suspension feel. It would feel sluggish and cumbersome if say, you only put the rider on the suspension, as Inertia will be added onto by the batteries as they travel up and down during bumps. If the S18 does this right, I'll be thrilled. Already looking forwards to my order of the wheel coming through.

I think read that v11 is the rider pedals only.. I think the v11 looks promising as well.. I did drop a pre-order in for the s18.. I was swayed a little more towards the s18 because of the weight mostly. All though the more i read about both, the more i think the s18 is a better fit for me. 

I am hoping to see some impressions on both wheels soon!  I am a bit on edge rolling the dice on a brand new model of wheel.. But if early previews come back crappy, hopefully i will still have time to switch my money towards something else.

[takeda]

I understand battery size is important but a 22kgr wheel is already too much but tolerable. 

Please don't go over 22 kgrs.

PLEASE. We need lighter wheels not heavier.

 

[fryman]

More battery please. 1600wh.

[null]

57 minutes ago, takeda said:

I understand battery size is important but a 22kgr wheel is already too much but tolerable. 

Please don't go over 22 kgrs.

PLEASE. We need lighter wheels not heavier.

 

They already did pretty well to pack all that in 22Kg, its pretty much the lightest 18" and on top it has suspensions.
As much as I like a wheel to be light lets be realistic, this is pretty good already.

You have plenty of choices for lighter wheels if that's your priority, I dont see why us who like beefy wheels shouldn't get the option just because of you.

Edited April 13, 2020 by null

[Yunicycle]

43 minutes ago, fryman said:

More battery please. 1600wh.

Agree, add one more Pness to this wheel and I think a lot of people will be all over it, pun intended .  If it adds 3-4 lbs (give or take) to the total weight, so be it, (battery and modified of body) this would be my dream wheel.

[Rywokast]

1 hour ago, takeda said:

I understand battery size is important but a 22kgr wheel is already too much but tolerable. 

Please don't go over 22 kgrs.

PLEASE. We need lighter wheels not heavier.

 

how often are you carrying it? who cares how much it weighs lol thats why theres smaller wheels for around the city that you can toss around.. a real wheel will never be "light"

[davinche]

Seems like some good content regarding specs, battery etc.

[Yunicycle]

Here are my thoughts in all seriousness,

I believe King Song made a smart move here (strategically speaking) by only making the S18 only 20p3s.  Keep in mind, they added new suspension which is revolutionary for us in the EUC world.  It would be wise for the company not to stick too many batteries in this new unproven product when we all know batteries are not on the cheap thus making its debut at $2300-$2500.  If this k18 proves to be a hit (which i think it will be) King Song can always come back and refine/upgrade this new product to appease the the rest of us. I really like this wheel, especially what they are able to squeeze in with the weight of only 22kgms, so there is definitely room here to add weight here, compared to 18inch wheels that are already out .

Having said that, I think where they fell flat was probably not their fault, was our expectations of their product.  They made a machine that looks rugged AF,  so beautifully futuristic, looks like it could tear up the trails but only deemed a beginners/intermediate wheel (per kuji), what a bummer.

If I am correct, King Song will eventually come out with an upgraded more powerful s18 (of course KS will never admit to that, because that will impact their current sales), and I'm willing to wait til they do.  Let us not forget, this is a hobby for us but it is a business for KingSong.  And if I am wrong, I will still enjoy riding my KS16s.  Call it cautious spending or whatever on my part.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Yunicycle

[mrelwood]

Commenting on the video @davinche linked to. It was a long conversation (and a bit painful as they constantly talk over eachother and jump to different topics in the middle of a comment), between guys in the business that know a little inside information. They revealed that a 20" Gotway should be announced at the end of May, and the guys were expecting it to have suspension as well! Very exciting times!

I think they were correct in that the S18 could function as a basis for customisation, whereas the V11 is readily a solid package with less room, possibilities, or need for modifications.