King Song S18 Discussion

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, Afeez Kay said:

It may not be a performance wheel but it  is one hell of a good looking EUC.. 😍

What type of performance are you not able to do? You promised you do trick videos....

I am sure you don't need to go 60kmh+ to go down stairs or show off you hard core slalom moves...

[Patton250]

38 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I agree most to this. It is a typical term most GW riders use to play down other brands. 

First of all "performance" label is very unclear. To me that has not anything to do with speed. It could just as well be range, ride comfort, acceleration and braking, robustness...

The next label that goes in hand with the "performance" are we are hard code riders....

Maybe...but I have seen people do hard core performancemaneuvers on V5f and m3ten too. Stuff I would never be able to pull off. 

So whenever people start tossing about with performance and hardcore I cant help thinking...really?

Well going above 30 mph is just silly anyway. It’s not necessary and it’s only done for a thrill. I rarely bring my Nik+ above 30 mph. 
 

Now acceleration is a different story.. My 18XL (with new motor) gets to 25 mph faster then my Nik+. So I guess the 18XL is a performance wheel. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Patton250

[AtlasP]

 

28 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I agree most to this. It is a typical term most GW riders use to play down other brands. 

First of all "performance" label is very unclear. To me that has not anything to do with speed. It could just as well be range, ride comfort, acceleration and braking, robustness...

The next label that goes in hand with the "performance" are we are hard code riders....

...

So whenever people start tossing about with performance and hardcore I cant help thinking...really?

100% agree. The label "performance" used in this way is just an attempt to obfuscate the elevation of certain concerns over others, which concerns those are specifically, and what threshold/standard is being used for judging those concerns--and then ultimately to declare a blanket pass/fail judgment based on those purposefully obfuscated criteria/standards.

Edited April 14, 2020 by AtlasP

[Unventor]

4 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

Well going about 30 mph is just silly anyway. It’s not necessary and it’s only done for a thrill. I rarely bring my Nik+ above 30 mph. 
 

Now acceleration is a different story.. My 18XL (with new motor) gets to 25 mph faster then my Nik+. So I guess the 18XL is a performance wheel. 

I would say the KS18L/XL/LH are not necessary best at many things but the great it most thing regarding an EUC. That itself put it to one if the top contenders of best all around wheel. This holds merits too. Are this is much harder than slapping on more batteries for range or adding 2mph more to have top speed on paper but no tiltback options...

Soon we will have to think differently about this too when IM introduce AI smart EUC. IM CEO talked a little about it in the interview. 

Anyway back to topic the S18 is not for all definitely. But for some it might just be the right thing. I could see this as a mid range commuter wheel. But I think overall the KS18L or KS18XL is a smarter package as it isn't an open construction and KS said they didn't focus on weatherproofing on it due it rating IP54.

[Rehab1]

2 hours ago, Afeez Kay said:

It may not be a performance wheel but it  is one hell of a good looking EUC.. 😍

I agree!   In my view the S18 is a high performance ‘off road’ wheel.

I purchased the Z10 specifically for this reason. Traveling through wooded trails while navigating around ruts, rocks, branches and roots is a load of fun but I always maintain a sensible speed.

The added shock absorption of the S18 would definitely enhance the comfort and thrill of riding though wooded tracts but I highly doubt my speed limitations over this type of terrain will ever change. I love trees but fear kissing one head on.

[EZhel]

On 4/14/2020 at 4:12 AM, Stillhart said:

do people normally give the MFR's such a hard time about super technical details on the product?  I've never once been in an enthusiast community where people start looking up specs of individual components and then call out the manufacturer for on really specific hypothetical situations.

EUC community mostly consists of enthusiasts, and as years go by, the technical knowledge level increases and people do care about battery capacity, range and power, pedal height, tire choice etc.

That's why, for example, as I personally find V11 and S18 very interesting and promising for future models, I don't see any of those two as my next wheel at all. While the suspension is supposed to solve a number of issues, everyone would be right to imagine that it would bring a number of new issues, notifying the factory about our concerns may make the first model better.

 

On 4/13/2020 at 12:30 PM, buell47 said:

Please install at least a charging connector and the appropriate wiring that can withstand 10A, then at least everyone can test it for himself if the board and battery can withstand 10A without having to disassemble the wheel first to change the cable and charging connector. 

3 parallels of LG M50T have normal charge of 1455 mAh * 3 (0.3C), that's about 4.5 amps total for temperature range of 0..25 degree celsius. Charging it with 10 amps will damage it, up to the risk of getting on fire and burning everything around it. Please refer to spec from cell manufacturer before asking the impossible from KingSong.

Edited April 15, 2020 by EZhel

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

1 hour ago, EZhel said:

Please refer to spec from cell manufacturer before asking the impossible from KingSong.

Please refer to spec from cell manufacturer before you give incomplete/wrong answers.

Max charge Current (Continuous)* 25 ~ 45 ℃ = 0.7C = 3.395mA x 3 = 10.185mA

If I fast charge the S18 right after a heavy tour the cell temperature is for sure at least 25°C

And: "....if the board and battery can withstand 10A"

Please read it right! 

Edited April 15, 2020 by buell47

[EZhel]

1 minute ago, buell47 said:

Max charge Current (Continuous)* 25 ~ 45 ℃ = 0.7C = 3.395mA x 3 = 10.185mA

Max charge is a dangerous thing, and as KingSong buyers are all over the world, if they allow potentially dangerous power input, someone somewhere will burn their house sooner or later (read: sooner) and sue them big time.

[meepmeepmayer]

5 minutes ago, buell47 said:

Please refer to spec from cell manufacturer before you give incomplete/wrong answers.

Max charge Current (Continuous)* 25 ~ 45 ℃ = 0.7C = 3.395mA x 3 = 10.185mA

And what is the point of a charger too strong for the battery if the temperature is wrong? Are people expected to look at a thermometer before they charge their wheel? Are people expected to accept different charging speeds depending on the temperature (aka "Why is my S18 charging so slowly, I have a 10A charger?")?

You have to go by least common denominator. Which are those ~4.5A, not ~10A

Edited April 15, 2020 by meepmeepmayer

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

5A approval is fine, but if the rest of the hardware can handle 10A anyway, but the battery can only handle it at 25°C upwards, then the owner can decide that for himself, right? I can still charge 10A even if King Song says I can't, because there is no foolproof protection built in.

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, EZhel said:

Max charge is a dangerous thing, and as KingSong buyers are all over the world, if they allow potentially dangerous power input, someone somewhere will burn their house sooner or later (read: sooner) and sue them big time.

I hope the S18 will already get a smart BMS as afair was discussed in the manufacturers interview some time ago with also KS?

This would remove the biggest danger by at last monitoring and reporting the cells state in an adequate manner!

Lately i've seen while scanning for Li ion specs some tests from lyfte-info.dk. There they have many high current discharge graphs with many cut-offs in because of temperature getting to high. A situation which in the not extreme high capacity could happen ...

Something most manufacturers ignored till now with all the cells insulated in a plastic wrap....

So charging of EUCs is a dangerous thing per se ... normal charging just emphasizes this "design" probs a bit more...

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

And what is the point of a charger too strong for the battery if the temperature is wrong? Are people expected to look at a thermometer before they charge their wheel? Are people expected to accept different charging speeds depending on the temperature (aka "Why is my S18 charging so slowly, I have a 10A charger?")?

Cells warm up while charging. And temperature montioring for the cells should be a necessary feature anyhow!

... but this would need a smart charger in addition to the smart BMS ... maybe in a couple of years... ?

More interesting imho for not charging with a too high current if the batteries are to warm...

[Espen R]

So, Kuji Rolls didn’t die, which is great, love his videos! Still don’t understand the S18 though. To me it’s like a DeLorean, who looked and was priced like a supercar, but performed like your mothers VW Jetta and never reached 88mph.

If Kingsong was honest about how they presented the specs and perhaps even lowered the top speed to safely match the true capability of the wheel, so that the beginner/intermediate riders, which this wheel is made for, could easily read what this wheel is capable of and compare it to other wheels in the same price range, then I would be totally fine about it. This is not just an issue with Kingsong, but with a high-performance price tag it makes the S18 iffier than the rest.

I do understand that not everyone uses their wheel to its full capacity, and that’s ok. I have friends with supercars that have never been used on track or pushed hard beyond the 1^st gear, and I’m totally fine with that. They like the design and the feel, and they fulfil a childhood dream with grown up money. I even have a friend that used to own a DeLorean, and she loved that car.

So, for all of you who know what kind of wheel the S18 are and can easily afford it, great, you know what you’re getting and will probably love the wheel for what it is.

It’s the newbs with YouTube dreams that sees this wheel and think they can murder trails like Chooch or high-speed cruise like U-Stride, that I’m concerned about. They might have to stretch hard to afford it, and if they try to do the same things as Chooch or U-Stride, they’ll end up disappointed, feeling cheated or perhaps even injured, and I’m not ok with that, it triggers my sense of justice. I know a guy that have lived most of his adult life with a left leg that is 3 cm shorter than his right leg, because he bought a downhill bike that was advertised as a real downhill bike, it even had many of the semi-pro parts, so you’d have to have a fair amount of knowledge to understand that this wasn’t a bike suited for downhill. 8 or 9 operations and all the other physical issues he has had to live with ever since, is a fairly hard lesson on deceitful marketing.

(I would've like to edit this out, but since it has been comented I let it stand. I don't agree with myself placing the 16X in a DeLorean categotry, it is a high performing wheel on anything but speed)  Kingsong already have a DeLorean in the 16” category, the 16X, which isn’t a bad wheel, but it is a slow and heavy wheel that doesn’t have performance like the GW Nikola or agility like the V10F and 16S, so it sits alone in its own somewhat confusing wheel category. With the S18 they are doing it again, creating a new 18” beginner/intermediate category with a high-performance price tag that doesn’t compete with anyone when it comes to performance or range. Is this the direction Kingsong is heading? If so, then they should change their slogan too: Kingsong, the maker of single wheel DeLorean’s;)

Let’s hope the S18 stays a DeLorean and doesn’t end up as a Ford Pinto, if the current battery configuration turns out to be unsafe.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Espen R

[Meserias]

I'm hopping that next version of S18 will have bigger battery and conducted range tests are made with at least 77KG rider + gear
I will skip this new wheel from KingSong S18 because of too low range...

KingSong must understand that real range it's essential...

[Patton250]

50 minutes ago, Espen R said:

So, Kuji Rolls didn’t die, which is great, love his videos! Still don’t understand the S18 though. To me it’s like a DeLorean, who looked and was priced like a supercar, but performed like your mothers VW Jetta and never reached 88mph.

 

If Kingsong was honest about how they presented the specs and perhaps even lowered the top speed to safely match the true capability of the wheel, so that the beginner/intermediate riders, which this wheel is made for, could easily read what this wheel is capable of and compare it to other wheels in the same price range, then I would be totally fine about it. This is not just an issue with Kingsong, but with a high-performance price tag it makes the S18 iffier than the rest.

 

I do understand that not everyone uses their wheel to its full capacity, and that’s ok. I have friends with supercars that have never been used on track or pushed hard beyond the 1^st gear, and I’m totally fine with that. They like the design and the feel, and they fulfil a childhood dream with grown up money. I even have a friend that used to own a DeLorean, and she loved that car.

 

So, for all of you who know what kind of wheel the S18 are and can easily afford it, great, you know what you’re getting and will probably love the wheel for what it is.

 

It’s the newbs with YouTube dreams that sees this wheel and think they can murder trails like Chooch or high-speed cruise like U-Stride, that I’m concerned about. They might have to stretch hard to afford it, and if they try to do the same things as Chooch or U-Stride, they’ll end up disappointed, feeling cheated or perhaps even injured, and I’m not ok with that, it triggers my sense of justice. I know a guy that have lived most of his adult life with a left leg that is 3 cm shorter than his right leg, because he bought a downhill bike that was advertised as a real downhill bike, it even had many of the semi-pro parts, so you’d have to have a fair amount of knowledge to understand that this wasn’t a bike suited for downhill. 8 or 9 operations and all the other physical issues he has had to live with ever since, is a fairly hard lesson on deceitful marketing.

 

Kingsong already have a DeLorean in the 16” category, the 16X, which isn’t a bad wheel, but it is a slow and heavy wheel that doesn’t have performance like the GW Nikola or agility like the V10F and 16S, so it sits alone in its own somewhat confusing wheel category. With the S18 they are doing it again, creating a new 18” beginner/intermediate category with a high-performance price tag that doesn’t compete with anyone when it comes to performance or range. Is this the direction Kingsong is heading? If so, then they should change their slogan too: Kingsong, the maker of single wheel DeLorean’s;)

 

Let’s hope the S18 stays a DeLorean and doesn’t end up as a Ford Pinto, if the current battery configuration turns out to be unsafe.

 

 

I didn’t have any issues with anything you wrote until you said the 16X was slow and didn’t have the performance of the Nikola. I own the 16X and Nik+ and the only thing the Nik + is superior at is top end speed.  Agility , acceleration, comfort, are all equal between the two with the 16X coming out on top on a couple of those. My 18XL is faster (Much) up to 30MPH then my Nik+. I have no idea what this 18S will be like but there certainly is an awful lot of assumptions that the final product will suck. I just don’t understand that. 

[B08AH]

2 hours ago, Meserias said:

KingSong must understand that real range it's essential...

for like 5-10 percent of buyers.

[Espen R]

1 hour ago, Patton250 said:

I didn’t have any issues with anything you wrote until you said the 16X was slow and didn’t have the performance of the Nikola. I own the 16X and Nik+ and the only thing the Nik + is superior at is top end speed.  Agility , acceleration, comfort, are all equal between the two with the 16X coming out on top on a couple of those. My 18XL is faster (Much) up to 30MPH then my Nik+. I have no idea what this 18S will be like but there certainly is an awful lot of assumptions that the final product will suck. I just don’t understand that. 

Sorry, should’ve written speed instead of performance, because the 16X is a high performing wheel, and since there have been a few issues with the 16X above 40kph (25mph), I put in the slow category, which might’ve been a bit harsh. My point was only to show the oddities in Kingsong latest wheels and how they kind of end up in their own category, and I’m not denying that the 16X is a good wheel. I didn’t say that the Nikola is more agile than the 16X, I said they are less agile than the 16S and V10F. I shouldn’t have called the 16X a DeLorean either, because it can actually do all the high-performing stuff except speed.

I don’t think the 18S will be a bad wheel, it’s just odd. It looks like a high-performing wheel, and is priced as a high-performing wheel, but it won’t perform like the 18” wheels they are competing with.  

[Meserias]

B08AH: there is a pool (in this very forum) where everybody voted what they want for next wheel....
as far as I remember most voters wanted improvement about range

[jimjam.nyc]

6 minutes ago, Meserias said:

B08AH: there is a pool (in this very forum) where everybody voted what they want for next wheel....
as far as I remember most voters wanted improvement about range

This is fair enough.. but just because the 18s is coming out soon.. Doesn't mean KS isn't working on wheels with better range as well.. For now if range is your thing, the X and XL wheels are where its at from KS. (or have to go with another brand)

I think there is a bigger market for these midrange line of wheels than people think.. I mean look how many wheels inmotion sells.. V8f i think is selling well.. Considering it is a pretty low/mid spec wheel. 

the 18s sure looks a certain way, but i don't feel KS marketed it towards any specific market with it materials just yet.. The specs are the specs.. We can clearly see where the wheel is placing itself.. The price is another story.. but people will pay for what they want in the end.. Apple has kind of proved that strategy now for a while!

[fryman]

3 hours ago, Espen R said:

To me it’s like a DeLorean, who looked and was priced like a supercar, but performed like your mothers VW Jetta and never reached 88mph.

Current configuration of the S18 you could compare it to the Pontiac Fiero also. I ignored all the reviews and specs on the car because it looked cool and it used new manufacturing  techniques. I purchased one brand new, waited 3 months for it.  I only owned it for 2 years because the cool factor wore off.

[B08AH]

1 hour ago, Meserias said:

B08AH: there is a pool (in this very forum) where everybody voted what they want for next wheel....

This effect is called "Survivorship bias". 

[Stillhart]

2 hours ago, Espen R said:

....

I don’t think the 18S will be a bad wheel, it’s just odd. It looks like a high-performing wheel, and is priced as a high-performing wheel, but it won’t perform like the 18” wheels they are competing with.  

 

There's no rule that anything $2000 and up has to be a "high-performing" wheel.  That's in your head.  Just because all the current $2k wheels are high-performing doesn't mean that that's a rule that you can't break.  And you're making the assumption that the suspension won't add any performance in any area that would make it high-performance in that area.

Not directed at you specifically, but I feel like a lot of people here are very worried about some imaginary noob who might accidentally spend their own money on a wheel they want and become disappointed.  Why not just speak for yourself instead of a straw man?  Do you think that imaginary noob has the same preconceptions you do about what kind of performance you should be getting per $ spent?  Do you think that maybe, just maybe, they might realize that a wheel with an active suspension and complicated metalwork might cost more even though the specs are lower?  Do you think that maybe they might do a minimal amount of research to find out what W and Wh and V mean before picking a wheel?

Give your fellow EUC shoppers some credit.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Stillhart

[jonm42]

$$$ != speed.

[RockyTop]

Note to many: The 18s was released many years ago. You might still be able to get one if you look hard enough. The S18 will be released this summer. I know! Why did they name them that way? 

I have no idea why Kingsong didn’t go with 4P. On the S18. It would have bumped the battery rating up between  1500 and 1600. The S18 uses  4 separate pods to store the batteries. It was kinda a no brainer. 
 

That said......

If a company had come out with the MSX back before the first EIC was released no one would have know what to do with it. It takes time to learn what is possible. This is the beginning of suspension wheels. We don’t know what to do with them yet. Is it a safety feature for beginners or a feature that opens a new word of possibilities in skill?  You have to start somewhere. Remember, Chooch started out on a Ninebot one. ..... WOW !!!! Imagine the thrills on a Ninebot one. Weeeeeeee!!! 

[Espen R]

1 hour ago, Stillhart said:

Not directed at you specifically, but I feel like a lot of people here are very worried about some imaginary noob who might accidentally spend their own money on a wheel they want and become disappointed.  Why not just speak for yourself instead of a straw man?  Do you think that imaginary noob has the same preconceptions you do about what kind of performance you should be getting per $ spent?  Do you think that maybe, just maybe, they might realize that a wheel with an active suspension and complicated metalwork might cost more even though the specs are lower?  Do you think that maybe they might do a minimal amount of research to find out what W and Wh and V mean before picking a wheel?

The amount of low mileage Z10's I've seen for sale here in Sweden, tells a different story when it comes to wheels with a strong appeal to new EUC riders. We got many new riders to the EUC community with the Z10, but after experiencing a couple of those unpredictable giant throw off wobbles, many sold their wheels and didn’t replace it with a new EUC.

I do think that the people who know what they are getting into with the S18, will get a decent wheel. If it is a safe wheel remains to see. Battery size isn’t just about range, it is also a safety feature.

And, if the noobs that want a high performing wheel with suspension do the research, they'll probably buy the V11.

[Bambino]

I think is strange, but i like it!! 

I have the KS 18 and i love it. 

I want to buy another wheel from kingsong and seems to me that this wheel will be a great upgrade.