King Song S18 Discussion

[Rywokast]

2 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

But would you subscribe and wait forever for the next vid?

absolutely

[DjPanJan]

And there is again the curse of this forum 16 pages and it turned out not completely into off topic but a person who in this "official" thread looking for information S18 drowns in theories of stories and reactions of permanent members to members.
I don't want to be bad but I write it sometimes it reaches ***** level and regular members know what I mean.

Edited April 10, 2020 by meepmeepmayer
name removed, for peace

[Rehab1]

8 hours ago, fryman said:

Pass the butter 

What....no beer?  Your invited as well  @DjPanJan . 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Rehab1

[WI_Hedgehog]

13 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

Where is the spring? I only see a shock.

It's technically an "air spring," even though we're calling it a "shock." in it's simplest form, there is a piston centered inside that compresses air at one end and stretches it on the other end. When the direction of motion reverses, the spring action happens in the opposite direction.

The air spring is filled on the side that takes the rider weight first, providing the lift to keep them up, that's the "spring." Because of the suspension linkage, size of the piston, and where you want the piston to center, the amount of pressure isn't the same as the rider weight. Let's say for example we have an 80 lb rider, and add 100 lbs of pressure to lift them and give more compression travel than rarefaction travel, absorbing larger bumps.

The ride is soft, and really, really springy, because the air spring is only acting as a spring. We therefore add another 20 lbs of air to the side that supports the rider, and 20 lbs to the opposite side, causing the air spring to fight against itself on rebound and become an "air shock." The more air that is added to both sides the stiffer the shock becomes. 

While air on both sides makes a good system, it's not that good; the system will either be set soft and handle cracks in the pavement but not large bumps, or be set hard and give a harsh ride but help absorb large bumps. To make this a better system, a smaller chamber with another piston can be added to each end of the cylinder, so instead of having one piston and two chambers there are three pistons and six chambers all on the same central shaft. The large center chamber has a shortened stroke length and a lot of extra volume, and handles small bumps really well. As the piston travel nears the end of the stroke length the piston in the tiny chamber runs out of space and the air inside that wasn't under any pressure to start with is now under extreme pressure, and therefore vigorously resists further travel, slowing the suspension compression and absorbing the large bumps. This is basically how a progressive system works. To tune it there's a feed tube from the small chamber on one end to the small chamber on the other, allowing some air to bleed back and forth. The rate of flow is adjusted by needle valve, with a few position detents, seen on the outside as the 10-position dial. 

Over time the seal lubricant wears out, so lubricant has to be added to the system to keep it working well. Most people don't realize air springs are not maintainance free and the result is the springs wear out in a few years. 

Because of the multiple chambers, a progressive shock doesn't travel the long stroke length of a non-progressive air shock, and the suspension linkage has to act as a length multiplier to get the same amount of travel. Making a better suspension with less travel is difficult, and that's why top-end air shocks like FOX cost so much. Stealing their hard work, quite frankly, is disreputable. Using a knock-off shock robs FOX from getting the money back that they invested in R&D. FOX designs their shocks for specific applications, and by finding a FOX shock "that works good enough for an EUC" and then using a knock-off, FOX is being ripped off. Then again, Gotway and Inmotion already feel that way... 

Edited April 10, 2020 by WI_Hedgehog

[null]

8 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Lacking Torque

[...]
. The MSP kills it in that department.

 

I can understand the disappointment of those who want that, but the MSPs torque apparently eat up the battery and I prefer range, so I’ll hope it catches up on battery optimization. I’d rather have 18XL range than MSP torque from the same Wh.

Edit: better to have the option for both though, maybe it could be baked into the hardness setting as « eco » and « power »

Edited April 10, 2020 by null

[Dave Wood]

these kinda reviews are not helpful to anybody   imo, lots of negativity, childish sniggering & assumptions  here about both wheels, thoughts?

Edited April 10, 2020 by Dave Wood

[Eucenduro]

3 hours ago, Rafal said:

60% of full cycle is  going from 4.20V to 3.67v. Below 3.3V for GW or 3V for KS only few % of energy is avialable.  Look at the discharge test of any li-ion cell. So I would say EUC full cycle is more like 85-95% of a full cell cycle. 

120km is a lie. In real life it will be closer to 50-60km. So even taking 60km X 500 = 30 000km. Not mention that after 500 cycles battery cell will remain about 80% of capacity. So it will be doing in avarage not 60 km but lets say 53km. Avarage durning those 500 cycles. So it ill be 500x53km =26 500km. And we are talking about light rider or  riding slow. Otherwise it will be again much less. 

No man is 3p so degradate so quickly... 10k i think not more. They put 3p for 2.200w motor is Crazy. 

[travsformation]

3 minutes ago, Eucenduro said:

hey put 3p for 2.200w motor is Crazy

I agree. My first thought was that with 3P setup and 1100Wh battery, they were going to have to software limit the torque, but with the 5000W peak they've announced, looks like quick battery degradation might be the route they've chosen...

[Eucenduro]

2 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

I don’t have the prototype but it should be fairly simple. The suspension is located in the back held place by two sockets, unscrew those and put a new one in. 

This is correct. 

Why you put 3p battery??? This wheel is thinking for funny but the put 3p inside for 2.200w... This configuration is good for 1.200w but nota for the same 16x motor. The kss18 os like a Ferrari whith a Vespa motor. So sad ks!!!

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, DjPanJan said:

And there is again the curse of this forum 16 pages and it turned out not completely into off topic but a person who in this "official" thread looking for information S18 drowns in theories of stories and reactions of permanent members to members.
I don't want to be bad but I write it sometimes it reaches ***** level and regular members know what I mean.

You're right. We mods are aware and don't want this to become another 16X thread of chaos and discord. We'll keep an eye on it.

Maybe @Jack King Song will make another info collection topic where no discussion is allowed, or he can have anything else he wants. We'll support that.

[someguy152]

10 hours ago, Stillhart said:

I'll be doing my part to fund someone's purchase of a S18, keeping a close eye on the sale forum!

just picked up a $300 ks14s, can't wait to pick up a sub 1000  msx or 18xl or 16x, soon

[Girth Brooks]

14 hours ago, null said:

I'd also like a source, this is getting repeated like it was a fact.

"Gotway boss" saying "maybe they used the same tech" is hardly a source to make such allegations.
I get that inmotion wanted to keep the spotlight, but that doesn't make EUC suspensions some exclusive IP.
Especially that it doesn't even seem to the the same system.

Chinese Corporate Espionage is is a very worldwide, factual thing that is WILDLY a common occurrence. I am sure that InMotion has their reason for being pissed and I bet they're right.

Source: United States Federal Bureau of Investigation- https://www.fbi.gov/news/speeches/responding-effectively-to-the-chinese-economic-espionage-threat

[travsformation]

2 hours ago, Dave Wood said:

these kinda reviews are not helpful to anybody   imo, lots of negativity, childish sniggering & assumptions  here about both wheels, thoughts?

Same in every thread/platform, whether it's written or video. Kind of inevitable if you ask me. EUC manufacturers save a lot on advertising and instead use influencers and social media to promote their new products, and with the kind of slow-trickle of information approach they've chosen, speculation is inevitable, and builds up the hype. So it's only logical for there to be everything from constructive, mature and grounded reviews and comments, to unfounded speculation, criticism and everything in between. 

It's an inevitable byproduct of the marketing route manufacturers have chosen, IMHO. But the downside is chaos (and plenty to do for mods if we want to prevent discord) 

Edited April 10, 2020 by travsformation

[Girth Brooks]

8 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Gotway knows how to build a torque monster of a wheel, so we'll probably have to wait for their version of a suspension wheel that can kill the hills.

This will likely be what I wait for. Very much regret getting rid of my 100V Monster just like Marty told me I would. 

[null]

@Girth Brooks without any substance to their claim they are just spreading FUD which you are backing up.

[RockyTop]

Looking at the company backgrounds InMotion and Kingsong are the two companies set up for suspension engineering. InMotion has experience with exercise equipment and Kingsong has shown that they can do quality mechanical engineering. GotWay has gotten  by with over sizing robust electrical components. (#%#!!ing axle nuts and weak hangers) I am not saying that Gotway can’t do it. I am saying that they are going to have to expand their field of expertise.  You know I want them to succeed. 

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, Girth Brooks said:

Chinese Corporate Espionage is is a very worldwide, factual thing that is WILDLY a common occurrence. I am sure that InMotion has their reason for being pissed and I bet they're right.

I have been chatting with a few of the staff at Inmotion. So they told me that Inmotion won a court case against KS as they were copying Inmotion due to a trusted employee shared knowledge to KS. 

So from what I picked up KS had to redesign their first version. 

Now I didn't ask for documentation but it is had to state this if it didn't have any truths to it. 

I don't this it matters so much to us at first. Mainly that these things are settled in court. In the end the offender will have to pay for their miss-doings. 

I know were little about the 2 solutions current new released from IM and KS. 

But as it looks right now I am waiting on confirmation but I think I got a V11 listed as a new ownership. I am sure I know this within the week. 

The KS S18 might look hardcore. But there are a few other things that is more important to me so the V11 seems to be the best solution for what I value most. 

[WI_Hedgehog]

11 hours ago, Stillhart said:

I'll be doing my part to fund someone's purchase of a S18, keeping a close eye on the sale forum!

Waiting for a great deal on a KS-18XL or MSX...

Edited April 10, 2020 by WI_Hedgehog

[Electric Dreams]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

You're right. We mods are aware and don't want this to become another 16X thread of chaos and discord. We'll keep an eye on it.

Maybe @Jack King Song will make another info collection topic where no discussion is allowed, or he can have anything else he wants. We'll support that.

thank you for being supportive  I've posted a response in the suspension thread, basically i'll let you guys have control since your the experts whatever to keep the forum spam free and not messy 

[WI_Hedgehog]

 

5 hours ago, DjPanJan said:

And there is again the curse of this forum 16 pages and it turned out not completely into off topic but a person who in this "official" thread looking for information S18 drowns in theories of stories and reactions of permanent members to members.

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

You're right. We mods are aware and don't want this to become another 16X thread of chaos and discord. We'll keep an eye on it.

Maybe @Jack King Song will make another info collection topic where no discussion is allowed, or he can have anything else he wants. We'll support that.

I don't see the problem. King Song wanted people to talk about their wheel, people are, that's why we're here, in a forum. KS has two FaceBook pages, InstaGram, and a YouTube channel they can control comments on, and members are here in a forum to discuss, dream, theorize, vent, and be a community. That's how we learn & grow, and grow the hobby! (this launch thread will die after the release anyway...in the meantime KS gets customer feedback)

I'm really happy KS is introducing the S18! I want an 18XL, and now that some of the business tactics in this thread came up...maybe a MSX instead...either way it's going to help the used market, and since I'm in a climate where riding days are significantly limited, used makes a lot of sense vs. letting a new one age 3/4 of the year. Maybe Gotway gets my future business--it still grows the EUC community, and I'm looking forward to a new-ish EUC.

Edited April 10, 2020 by WI_Hedgehog

[Stillhart]

2 hours ago, Girth Brooks said:

Chinese Corporate Espionage is is a very worldwide, factual thing that is WILDLY a common occurrence. I am sure that InMotion has their reason for being pissed and I bet they're right.

Source: United States Federal Bureau of Investigation- https://www.fbi.gov/news/speeches/responding-effectively-to-the-chinese-economic-espionage-threat

Dude, both companies are Chinese.  This doesn't make either side more likely to be telling the truth.  How do we know InMotion isn't pulling a Trump and just accusing their competitors of stuff they actually do?  

To be clear, I'm not saying I believe they're doing this.  I think we have zero evidence one way or the other except for heresay and the person saying it is has a financial incentive for us to believe them.  We don't even have any proof that a trial actually happened, much less who won it.  If it were in the States, it would be public information that a trial happened.  If InMotion could provide proof for even a single claim, it would lend credence to the rest of their claims.  But they haven't yet.

Until then, I'll continue to take no sides in this.  I don't approve of corporate espionage, though, and if it were proven true, I'd never buy a KingSong.

[travsformation]

21 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

Dude, both companies are Chinese.  This doesn't make either side more likely to be telling the truth.  How do we know InMotion isn't pulling a Trump and just accusing their competitors of stuff they actually do?  

To be clear, I'm not saying I believe they're doing this.  I think we have zero evidence one way or the other except for heresay and the person saying it is has a financial incentive for us to believe them.  We don't even have any proof that a trial actually happened, much less who won it.  If it were in the States, it would be public information that a trial happened.  If InMotion could provide proof for even a single claim, it would lend credence to the rest of their claims.  But they haven't yet.

Until then, I'll continue to take no sides in this.  I don't approve of corporate espionage, though, and if it were proven true, I'd never buy a KingSong.

Either way, how/if they backstab each other is none of my business as long as they produce quality EUCs 

[mrelwood]

 

7 hours ago, Rafal said:

I would say EUC full cycle is more like 85-95% of a full cell cycle.

...

So it ill be 500x53km =26 500km.

Even if it were 26 500, or even 20 000 km, it's still distance that extremely few people ride on a single EUC. Let alone in two years, which was the original point I was trying to make.

[Dave Wood]

38 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

Dude, both companies are Chinese.  This doesn't make either side more likely to be telling the truth.  How do we know InMotion isn't pulling a Trump and just accusing their competitors of stuff they actually do?  

To be clear, I'm not saying I believe they're doing this.  I think we have zero evidence one way or the other except for heresay and the person saying it is has a financial incentive for us to believe them.  We don't even have any proof that a trial actually happened, much less who won it.  If it were in the States, it would be public information that a trial happened.  If InMotion could provide proof for even a single claim, it would lend credence to the rest of their claims.  But they haven't yet.

Until then, I'll continue to take no sides in this.  I don't approve of corporate espionage, though, and if it were proven true, I'd never buy a KingSong.

Iv seen nothing from Inmotion regarding this subject on this forum which is understandable considering the legal ramifications ,  All this only came up because one of the bosses at Gotway posted it on the V11 thread,  why would Gotway divulge such information if it wasn't true? they have nothing to gain from making up such a thing other than potentially getting sued for slander if untrue.

[Stillhart]

2 minutes ago, Dave Wood said:

Iv seen nothing from Inmotion regarding this subject on this forum which is understandable considering the legal ramifications ,  All this only came up because one of the bosses at Gotway posted it on the V11 thread,  why would Gotway divulge such information if it wasn't true? they have nothing to gain from making up such a thing other than potentially getting sued for slander if untrue.

Don't they?  With only three major mfrs in the niche EUC market, ruining the reputation of one of the other two (especially the only one that's even close to competing with your products directly) has a large potential financial upside. 

Look, we have no FACTS to work off of.  We can find many reasons to believe or not whomever we want.  But until some facts emerge, I just can't see picking a side.