KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

[Garrie Lim]

On 11/2/2019 at 7:34 PM, Afeez Kay said:

There is a poll on Facebook. KS16X 100V, with 21700 cells.. would you buy it?

I feel the KS16X with it’s responsiveness, usability, agility is only missing one ☝ more thing.. more power buffer.. the power is not necessarily for top speed, it is more for having that power when you need it and to help the wheel stay up right...

VOTE  NOW TO BE HEARD 

 

 

To be honest, I think the KS16X is fine.  
 

It is just that suddenly we have this trend of moving to 21700 cells. It’s not better or worse, whatever cells u use there will be limits, limits that we should respect. 
 

 

[KAY GEE]

10 hours ago, fryman said:

That 2200W motor may benefit with a 100V system.

Agreed, but the speed limit needs to be at the very least 55 km/h, that's why I said it would be pointless, unless King song decide to change their philosophy, which I doubt

[Aneta]

Isn't energy density for all cylindrical shape Li-ion cells (18650, 21700, 32700, whatever) about the same? If yes, then apart from some particular EUC case configurations where same number of 21700's will fit in the same shell as 18650's, what's the attraction of 21700's?

[Garrie Lim]

5 minutes ago, Aneta said:

Isn't energy density for all cylindrical shape Li-ion cells (18650, 21700, 32700, whatever) about the same? If yes, then apart from some particular EUC case configurations where same number of 21700's will fit in the same shell as 18650's, what's the attraction of 21700's?

It’s just a fad. He got excited because he was one of the first few to have 21700 cells in his gotway. 
 

21700 pack more capacity but they take up more space. So it’s still a push and pull situation. 

[DragonFZ]

1 hour ago, Garrie Lim said:

It’s just a fad. He got excited because he was one of the first few to have 21700 cells in his gotway. 
 

21700 pack more capacity but they take up more space. So it’s still a push and pull situation. 

I agree... Just simple physical science... You can pack more volume of little rocks in a jar than with bigger rocks. If it is the same Lithium Ion material/technology then more material packed in a given volume will produce more power. Is this wrong? I don't understand the amp or discharge threshold of a bigger battery, is there a scale of economy because of size? So, the only advantage is if there is new material or methods put into the battery?

[Chriull]

5 hours ago, DragonFZ said:

I agree... Just simple physical science... You can pack more volume of little rocks in a jar than with bigger rocks.

With the cells cylindrical shape one gets with the same packing strategy always the same "fill density". Their size difference is not as big as small rocks (sand/pebble) and big rocks...

There are just the "corner cases" where whole integer number of cells fitting "exactly" into the given space.

So depending on space constraint one of the two cell sizes will have a higher packing density.

Edit: Fill density depends on the form of the objects. And by only being able to fill whole objects "cornercases" exist once the size of the object is near the jar size. And taking a jar were a "big object" fits badly inside makes these cornercase more extreme...

Quote

If it is the same Lithium Ion material/technology then more material packed in a given volume will produce more power. Is this wrong? I don't understand the amp or discharge threshold of a bigger battery, is there a scale of economy because of size? So, the only advantage is if there is new material or methods put into the battery?

Don't know about used chemistries and rheir differences, just (?some of ?) the new 21700 cells have much higher nominal currents (and much lower internal resistance).

So for comparable capacity packs 21700 cells get much less stress (higher cycle cpunt possible?) and less voltage sag.

And with 21700 reasonable low capacity battery packs for EUCs are possible. The 1p and 2p 18650 packs of "earlier" wheels are mostly overburdened!

And the lower the discharge current vs nominal current (and the lower the internal resistance) the more of the advertised capacity can be used!

So as example for comparison:

The 21700 Samsung INR21700-30T 3000 mAh has with 2A  2785, wih 3A   
2734mAh and with with 5A still 2622mAh usable capacity downto 3.3V.

The 18650 LG  INR18650MJ1 3500mAh  has with 2A  2581 mAh, wih 3A   
2271mAh and with with 5A just 1766mAh usable capacity downto 3.3V.

Unfortionately numbers for higher capacity 21700 cells like thr INR21700-40T were not available at dampfakkus.de.

But imo also with this numbers one can get a rough picture. Using 1000W (roughly driving 50 km/h on a flat road) uses ~2A per cell with an 20s6p configuration. The announced 2200W "nominal" power would use about 4.4A per cell and some peak burden of 4000W ~8A per cell. And this amperage was for full 84V - with lower battety voltage (charge) it'll be even higher.

So maybe a INR21700 pack with just 4p (-9% volumina as a 6p 18650 pack) could already keep up/outperform the now standard packs. A 5p (+14% volumina) should do in any case.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Chriull
copy pasted some capacity numbers wrongly...

[Harvey Pooka]

The great thing about finding this forum is I've learned so much about the technical side of how EUCs work from everyone here. But as a non-techie luddite, my head now hurts. I think it is time to take the blue pill and go back to the days when I thought my wheel was powered by two hamsters . . . running together in parallel . . . a 2p? Nooooo! See what you've done? 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

On 11/1/2019 at 9:40 AM, buell47 said:

@xorbeThe same thing started with me after 800km. Suddenly at faster speed almost only straight ahead at light carving only tilt forward. Then slowly back to normal within 5-10 seconds. Repeats itself sporadically again and again. I didn't have a crash yet! Re-calibration did not help. I have Bluetooth patch from the first day and always hear full volume without any problems. Bluetooth deactivated for test purposes, but no change here either.

I installed a new Control Board yesterday, but the test ride is still pending.

My wheel is one of the very first ones and I have a V1.4 Control Board. Now a V1.5 has been delivered.

Yesterday I had my first test ride with the new Control Board. But only a 25 km family trip with max. 30 km/h. I was totally surprised, but I wanted to wait for a second test ride on my usual track and higher speed before making my statement here. 

Today I drove 43 km in a row and had the same feeling as yesterday. I have another 16X!

Not only that the tilting problems are gone at higher speeds, the whole feeling is different. Much harder and more direct. Before I had with aggressive carving (hardest setting) rather the feeling I can push the pedal down a little. Now the pedal is hard as a rock. 

Since I was just hoping that the new tilting problem would be fixed, I can't believe that I'm imagining it, especially since the trip yesterday with my family wasn't supposed to be a test ride and I was actually totally distracted because I was playing around with my daughter. Nevertheless I noticed it all the time. 

If one had put me blindly on the EUC, I would have said that is definitely not my 16X, which I have already driven 1200 km now. 

I can't explain it myself.

Is that even possible? Can such a difference occur despite the same firmware, only with a newer Control Board version? 

And no, it is not by chance the firmware 1.0.5 on it, but factory default 1.0.7. 

@xorbe

Edited November 4, 2019 by buell47

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, buell47 said:

If one had put me blindly on the EUC, I would have said that is definitely not my 16X,

Nope it is mine, you need to ship it to me right away before the snow sets in... Now... 

[DragonFZ]

20 hours ago, Chriull said:

With the cells cylindrical shape one gets with the same packing strategy always the same "fill density". Their size difference is not as big as small rocks (sand/pebble) and big rocks...

There are just the "corner cases" where whole integer number of cells fitting "exactly" into the given space.

So depending on space constraint one of the two cell sizes will have a higher packing density.

Edit: Fill density depends on the form of the objects. And by only being able to fill whole objects "cornercases" exist once the size of the object is near the jar size. And taking a jar were a "big object" fits badly inside makes these cornercase more extreme...

Don't know about used chemistries and rheir differences, just (?some of ?) the new 21700 cells have much higher nominal currents (and much lower internal resistance).

So for comparable capacity packs 21700 cells get much less stress (higher cycle cpunt possible?) and less voltage sag.

And with 21700 reasonable low capacity battery packs for EUCs are possible. The 1p and 2p 18650 packs of "earlier" wheels are mostly overburdened!

And the lower the discharge current vs nominal current (and the lower the internal resistance) the more of the advertised capacity can be used!

So as example for comparison:

The 21700 Samsung INR21700-30T 3000 mAh has with 2A  2785, wih 3A   
2734mAh and with with 5A still 2622mAh usable capacity downto 3.3V.

The 18650 LG  INR18650MJ1 3500mAh  has with 2A  2581 mAh, wih 3A   
2271mAh and with with 5A just 1766mAh usable capacity downto 3.3V.

Unfortionately numbers for higher capacity 21700 cells like thr INR21700-40T were not available at dampfakkus.de.

But imo also with this numbers one can get a rough picture. Using 1000W (roughly driving 50 km/h on a flat road) uses ~2A per cell with an 20s6p configuration. The announced 2200W "nominal" power would use about 4.4A per cell and some peak burden of 4000W ~8A per cell. And this amperage was for full 84V - with lower battety voltage (charge) it'll be even higher.

So maybe a INR21700 pack with just 4p (-9% volumina as a 6p 18650 pack) could already keep up/outperform the now standard packs. A 5p (+14% volumina) should do in any case.

Thank you for taking the time for explaining the advantages of 21700.

The Electric Skateboards are going 21700... Backfire G3 for $700 has 21700 Battery Cells (12S 50.4V)

Edited November 5, 2019 by DragonFZ

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, DragonFZ said:

Thank you for taking the time for explaining the advantages of 21700.

You're welcome. But i am not sure if this are all 21700 advanages or just from this one special cell - one will see once data from more cells are available and with real world comparissons once more 21700 wheels are around.

[Gaz Bon]

At what temp should the main board fan turn on 

Mine gets to 50 deg C and fan still off 

Thx in advance 

[Micheal Shen]

22 minutes ago, Gaz Bon said:

At what temp should the main board fan turn on 

Mine gets to 50 deg C and fan still off 

Thx in advance 

KS-16X Fan Rules

Celsius=45, 50% power on Fan

Celsius=65, 100% power on Fan

 

[BleepBloopBlop]

Chugging along and am tracking to hit 2000 miles before the end of the year. Batch 1 tire is holding up well. I'll most likely be ordering the same tire again as I don't find much fault in it and am used to how the wheel feels at this point. I don't want to change tires and sacrifice tread life or overall stability at 30mph.

[NordEstEuc]

On 8/28/2019 at 9:23 AM, Hibiki Mr.H said:

I am sorry to post here, because I just realize that I can only send 3 PMs per day.

Hello guys~ @chrisjunlee @Jon Stern @cyfur @Gustesta @Tom D @CampDylan @Genghis @VonWiffen @Azze80

The CYT H-5167 has arrived yesterday and ready to ship out to you.

The total cost of 12 sets of tires is $3411 NTD for tires & tubes (107.69 USD) + $1669 NTD for shipping from China to me (52.69 USD) + $440 NTD for customs duty. So each set is (3411+1669+440) / 12 = 460 NTD (14.52 USD) + 30 NTD for each packaging box which is required for global shipping. TOTAL is 490 NTD plus the shipping you choose below

there are 2 options for global shipping: (package weight 2050g)

for Hawaii: 
1. Air Parcel: 660 NTD (20.84 USD) 10 to 14 days
2. EMS: 1200 NTD (37.88 USD) 4 to 5 days

for United State: 
1. Air Parcel: 860 NTD (27.15 USD) 10 to 14 days
2. EMS: 1200 NTD (37.88 USD) 4 to 5 days

for Singapore: 
1. Air Parcel: 440 NTD (13.89 USD) 8 to 10 days
2. EMS: 790 NTD (24.94 USD) 2 to 3 days

for Sweden: 
1. Air Parcel: 870 NTD (27.47 USD) 14 to 18 days
2. EMS: 1120 NTD (35.36 USD) 4 to 5 days

The fund transferring will be done through PayPal.

PLEASE NOTE:
If it's okey with you, please transfer the fund in NTD (New Taiwan Dollar), otherwise I will be charged 2.5% transaction fee when I make withdrawal.

If you decide to get this tire, please PM me with your shipping address and contact info (name, address, phone # ...etc) 
and your EMAIL address so that I can send you the PayPal bill by email.

If you decide not to get this tire, it's alright too, but please also reply or PM and let me know.

thanks!!

Hi I'm intrested but can you send the tyre also in Italy? 

[RoadRunner]

Try 1radwekstatt here in Germany i got mine from there.

9 hours ago, Wingo67 said:

Hi I'm intrested but can you send the tyre also in Italy? 

 

[Hibiki Mr.H]

11 hours ago, Wingo67 said:

Hi I'm intrested but can you send the tyre also in Italy? 

I don't have more H-5167 tires, but you should be able to get it from any King Song distributor now.

[The Fat Unicyclist]

On 11/13/2019 at 6:48 PM, Hibiki Mr.H said:

I don't have more H-5167 tires, but you should be able to get it from any King Song distributor now.

I think I have some of those... I probably should get them up on our website...   

[tessa25]

Ok, who's gonna take one for the team and do some downhills on the 16x? This oughta help:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MNGC9CJ/ref=twister_B07MGRGV7J?_encoding=UTF8&th=1

 

[fryman]

1 hour ago, tessa25 said:

Ok, who's gonna take one for the team and do some downhills on the 16x? This oughta help:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MNGC9CJ/ref=twister_B07MGRGV7J?_encoding=UTF8&th=1

 

That’s got @Marty Backe name written all over it.

[Gaz Bon]

5 minutes ago, fryman said:

That’s got @Marty Backe name written all over it.

Would definitely fit it with @Marty Backe

New riding gear colour schemes 

[Chili D]

I’ve been searching keywords (16x/ alarm/amps/max), but not finding any details on the max amp threshold to watch for when accelerating hard on the ks16X. I currently have a 29Amp alarm setup in DarknessBot based on my accelerations that feel hard, but I tend to hit the alarm quite often. 

Anyone have any details or insight on how high it can go before possible overlean?

thanks,

chili

[Mike Sacristan]

2 hours ago, Chili D said:

I’ve been searching keywords (16x/ alarm/amps/max), but not finding any details on the max amp threshold to watch for when accelerating hard on the ks16X. I currently have a 29Amp alarm setup in DarknessBot based on my accelerations that feel hard, but I tend to hit the alarm quite often. 

Anyone have any details or insight on how high it can go before possible overlean?

thanks,

chili

Doesn't the 16X have it's own alarms for this? Three rapid beeps in succession.

I hit it for the first time last week at a skatepark on FW 1.05. I was going to go up a 33 degree incline and I did the transition from flat to slope too hard.

I hit it again the day before yesterday on FW 1.07. I looked at Darknessbot and saw that I had hit slightly over 36.

Youtube link below embedded with timestamp at 15:15
Time of beep: 15:18
Time where I show Darknessbot graph: 16:20
Time where I measure slope: 16:48 (33 degrees or 65%)

I repeated the slope several times with smoother / more linear acceleration and got close to 36 but did not trigger any beep.

My riding weight was 69kg.

Other than these two instances I have never hit that alarm.

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by Mike Sacristan
corrected time stamps

[Mike Sacristan]

An addition... the overlean might not necessarily come at the amp warning but at max power output.
There is a 4 beep alarm in 1.07 FW for this.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

9 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

but at max power output.
There is a 4 beep alarm in 1.07 FW for this.

Unfortunately hardly to hear at 45-50 km/h and on windy days even from 40 km/h. (without music) 

Edited November 17, 2019 by buell47