Aneta Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, zeke said: What speed corresponds to 50% duty cycle? I don't have that information. In Simulator, "throttle" is equal to duty cycle. For example, setting it to 50% in the example above gives 31kph, compared to FPS* of 53.8kph. * FacePlant Speed Edited November 20, 2019 by Aneta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xorbe Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 QUESTION! Can I flash a v1.5 control board to firmware 1.05? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Pooka Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 8 hours ago, mrelwood said: No... Think about it this way: Would you be easier to push around in a shopping cart if you kept your knees bent? Nope. The point is to bend your knees (or crouch) quickly, and as your upper torso starts to drop downwards, less of your torso’s weight is weighing on the pedals. This is true for a very short time only, and once you have reached the crouched position, for a short moment the wheel carries more than your weight. And after that it’s just the same as originally. But hopefully the lighter moment was long enough for the wheel to be able to accelerate back under you. If it wasn’t, you just crash from the crouched position instead. The stance/posture affects the thrust required to ride you around only via the smaller wind resistance. So yes, you will get better mileage riding crouched or seated. No mod really allows you to accelerate by leaning less or more than without the mod. To simplify a bit, the wheel can only sense your Center of Gravity, and it’s the only measure that tells the wheel to accelerate. Mod or no mod, you need to get the center of your gravity in front of the axle a certain amount to apply a certain amount of acceleration. Wind resistance of course plays a part, but short from carrying a huge cone shaped fixture in front of you, mods don’t have a notable effect in wind resistance. Your posture does though. Thanks @Mrelwood. That makes sense. I thought of bending the knees as pulling your body back so the EUC would have an easier time catching up. Thinking of it as dropping into a crouch is different and makes sense. As for the modifications, what I had seen was someone putting wedges on their pedals. So I understood people were Michael Jackson leaning forward to put more force on the front of the pedal. I thought the wedges allowed people to put force on the front of the pedal from an angle which would allow them to stand upright instead of Michael Jackson leaning. I drew a picture showing the two. (Forgive me for the rudimentary drawing. Apparently I am neither a techie nor an artist.) I thought power pads did the same thing except you needed to use your knees. So from what you are saying, these mods don't help with acceleration so I'm assuming they just help you to not slide off the pedals or EUC if you are going downhill etc or give you a better grip while leaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aneta Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 48 minutes ago, Harvey Pooka said: Thanks @Mrelwood. That makes sense. I thought of bending the knees as pulling your body back so the EUC would have an easier time catching up. Thinking of it as dropping into a crouch is different and makes sense. As for the modifications, what I had seen was someone putting wedges on their pedals. So I understood people were Michael Jackson leaning forward to put more force on the front of the pedal. I thought the wedges allowed people to put force on the front of the pedal from an angle which would allow them to stand upright instead of Michael Jackson leaning. I drew a picture showing the two. (Forgive me for the rudimentary drawing. Apparently I am neither a techie nor an artist.) I thought power pads did the same thing except you needed to use your knees. So from what you are saying, these mods don't help with acceleration so I'm assuming they just help you to not slide off the pedals or EUC if you are going downhill etc or give you a better grip while leaning. One can think of EUC pedals as a gas pedal in a car: they are a throttle that reacts to amount of rotation from neutral position. Like in cars, it does't matter where exactly you push it with your foot as long as you rotate it by needed angle. EUC throttles by measuring the angle its motherboard rotated relative to g-vector, using accelerometer/gyro combo (just like in smartphones). MB is rigidly attached to shell, shell is rigidly attached to pedals; so the rotation of the pedals relative to reference level is the throttle. The wedges only change our perception and comfort of rotating the whole EUC using just our feet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrelwood Posted November 20, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 20, 2019 5 hours ago, Harvey Pooka said: So from what you are saying, these mods don't help with acceleration so I'm assuming they just help you to not slide off the pedals or EUC if you are going downhill etc or give you a better grip while leaning. Oh, this seems to be a terminology thing after all. Pedal wedges, extended pedals and powerpads definitely do help with acceleration. But they don’t let you accelerate ”without leaning as much” as you originally wrote. Instead, they give you better control and more stability as you are leaning the same amount than before. And don’t worry, the picture illustrates the wedges perfectly! Pedal wedges give better grip and stability if using a softer riding mode, with extended pedals you don’t have to stand at the very edge of the pedals at steep inclines or when hitting a bump, and powerpads let you grab and tilt the whole wheel forward with your legs instead of just the balls of your feet. But every mod like these makes it easier for you to overlean the wheel. You’ll just feel safer and more stable just before it happens... 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, zeke said: (What speed corresponds to 50% duty cycle? I don't have that information.) No one can really have this information imho . 50% duty cycle means that effectively 50% of the battery voltage is "applied" to the motor - depending on the current there is some (relevant) loss at the coil ohmic resistance. The rest is the back emf of the motor defined by the speed. I never got into the "induction part" of the coil - for not static considerations this should play a "big" role, too!? Maybe this "unknown" part is the key to understand the "pedal tilt by ankle flip" happening - some short peak burden which by this "temporary" voltage sag shifts the torque limit line way lower? So depending on the load situation (current flowing, needed/applied torque) a certain duty cycle corresponds to very different speeds. I "started/gathered" my experience with all this pwm/duty cycle stuff in https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/7549-current-demand-versus-battery-voltage/ https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/7855-anatomy-of-an-overlean/ Although it seems that by now KS wheels report battery current instead of motor current as GW wheels? Thanks for your great sketches! Should be very interesting for our big shop owners in the east and west as @Jason McNeil and @EcoDrift- as they has already many explanative sites on their shop page to get this knowledge to the "people" before they faceplant and wonder why! Some very small comments: The dead zone in the first sketch in https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/13885-just-unboxed-my-gotway-msx-100v-quick-initial-pre-ride-impressions-in-comments-compared-to-my-inmotion-v8/?do=findComment&comment=237910 should start above the green line (load torque) along the blue line (maximum possible torque). Normal riding "along the green line" is not possible in reality - one has to accelerate to gain speed and then this green line looks like at your sketches for going uphill! Another point i did not really dug in too deep until now is the self balancing - the steady, "random" accelerations and decelerations needed to keep a rider up. They should be very dependend on the riders balancing skills and the "roughness" off the surface one rides. This should give an not be to neglected "needed torque noise" and by this a vertical upshift of the green line too, like going uphill? Below the v_wipeout is somewhere for Kingsongs and every other wheel with set tiltback the "normal max riding speed". One can see nicely in such a graph that with low accelerations at high speeds ("low upshift" of the green line) the tiltback is activated and one stays safe and with too much acceleration at high speeds one still hits the blue line (maximum possible torque) and overleans - without tiltback or warning beeps... That's imho the most puzzling parts for new riders - they unfortionately think they are really safe by having a tiltback/max speed set Ps.: If you like to "merge" your posts and sketches for a new topic we could pin that so every rider has a chance to read this before he faceplants! Edited November 20, 2019 by Chriull 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Pooka Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Chriull said: Ps.: If you like to "merge" your posts and sketches for a new topic we could pin that so every rider has a chance to read this before he faceplants! Thanks @mrelwood and @Aneta. I appreciate the information on pedal and other mods. I agree that this stuff should be in a different pinned post. I found everything quite interesting and educational and I think others might too. In this discussion, only riders interested in 16Xs would see it. (After reading 180+ other pages of posts). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erk1024 Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 18 hours ago, zeke said: Absolutely. That's why you need to maintain a healthy amount of thrust available as margin to overcome these obstacles. Wow! Cool! Thanks @zeke for the detailed explanation. I guess it makes sense the that wheel's alarms are so focused on speed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, Harvey Pooka said: Thanks @Mrelwood. That makes sense. I thought of bending the knees as pulling your body back so the EUC would have an easier time catching up. Thinking of it as dropping into a crouch is different and makes sense. There are several useful viewpoints to consider effect of bending the knees and it usually helps to have different viewpoints to have the full picture. My favorites are releasing weight off the wheel pulling or pushing the wheel "back" (in fact forward) under the body, somewhat like kicking a football forward with both legs. In this view also crouching is induced, as it counteracts the rotational movement of the legs (around the hip) with the counterrotation. It is also worth to have in mind that adding dynamically weight to the wheel (like stretching the legs) only requires additional power if the wheel is behind and not under the CoG. Edited November 20, 2019 by Mono 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyBonz Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 On 11/19/2019 at 6:57 PM, Mike Sacristan said: Would be interesting to know how Darknessbot works with Apple Watch and if the vibration can be sent to the watch. Just tested the application level alarms (sound and vibration)... unfortunately only the phone gives off an alert and vibrates. The watch does not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sacristan Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 6 hours ago, JonnyBonz said: Just tested the application level alarms (sound and vibration)... unfortunately only the phone gives off an alert and vibrates. The watch does not. Pity! It would have been nice to have a solution we could wear on our wrist like the Android/Pebble users. Thanks for testing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aneta Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said: Pity! It would have been nice to have a solution we could wear on our wrist like the Android/Pebble users. Thanks for testing! The cost of such solution is quite low, about 100 bucks: 30 for an Android phone and 65 for Pebble watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyBonz Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Aneta said: The cost of such solution is quite low, about 100 bucks: 30 for an Android phone and 65 for Pebble watch. True, but could cost 0 as it can be enabled via a software feature for those who already have an Apple Watch. Edited November 21, 2019 by JonnyBonz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aneta Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, JonnyBonz said: True, but could cost 0 as it can be enabled via a software feature for those who already have a wearable device. True. But it's the proverbial "two birds in the bush" vs. "a bird in the hand". Cheap Android phones open wonderful possibilities for atomic tasks. I have too many to count, each serving a laser-focused task. One $40 permanently on car dashboard - for GPS navigation. One $30 permanently on escooter handlebar - navigation, changing controller params. One $40 for one drone and another for another drone. Another $30 for light web browsing. Wear OS watch for $50 with always on transflective screen. Etc. I'm not even signed in to any services on them, not even Google Play. All non-preinstalled apps are just sideloaded. Bright, high res screens, unbelievable battery life, replaceable batteries on some... It's just fantastic, everything just flies, it just works. We live in amazing times. Edited November 21, 2019 by Aneta 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleepBloopBlop Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 Still plugging away over here racking up the miles. I need to start getting more serious about ordering a replacement tire! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Custom Power-Pads Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 On 11/20/2019 at 6:09 AM, xorbe said: QUESTION! Can I flash a v1.5 control board to firmware 1.05? The dealer can do this. What are your biggest concerns about 1.0.7? If it's the annoying charging alarm, maybe you have same luck as me. The Speed throttling is really not bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BleepBloopBlop Posted November 30, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 30, 2019 (edited) Had a great time riding in the snow on my 16X! I had never tried an EUC in the snow and although nerve racking at first I had no problems riding about 5 miles yesterday! Here is my buddy testing it out in the snow. Edited December 10, 2019 by BleepBloopBlop Added credit for my buddy riding 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrelwood Posted December 1, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 1, 2019 (edited) Yesterday I finally got the chance to try a 16X! Unfortunately the tire choice makes it impossible for me to judge how the wheel behaves and feels. It was extremely off-roady and wintery... We should get another chance come spring. The owner had done an amazing job on sealing all possible points of water entry, and then some. Silicone had not been used sparingly! What I could judge however is the ergonomics, and it felt very very good for me! Quite a bit better than the 18XL which feels a bit like I need to have my knees pointed slightly outwards to fit on the narrow pedals. Another first, I got to try a studded tire on icy ground. And I’m absolutely getting studs for mine as well! Edited December 1, 2019 by mrelwood 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Custom Power-Pads Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 Do you have any information on the tire? Just out of interest. On paved roads it must be the horror. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RetroThruster Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 That tire is awesome! I can see that I'm going to have an "off road" set up on a wheel and the 16x once sealed sure looks like a good candidate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 8 hours ago, buell47 said: Do you have any information on the tire? Just out of interest. On paved roads it must be the horror. He just picked up a 60/100-12 motocross/minicross tire and screw-in studs from a local hardware store. Yes, the ride was indeed fairly rough... I’m sure he wanted to get one faster than what hunting and ordering from abroad would’ve required. I’m not even sure if more enduro style tires exist in that size, ones that would have the knobbies a bit closer to eachother. Btw, he did mention that his 16X also seems to lose it’s thrust at higher speeds, and that he is able to do the ankle flick as well. Needless to say my 210lbs didn’t try to reach 30mph with the extra resistance from a tire like that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BleepBloopBlop Posted December 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) Broke the 3000km mark today! Looking good to hit my goal of 2k miles in my first 5 months of EUC ownership. My poor motorcycle barely gets any attention now around town. Edited December 10, 2019 by BleepBloopBlop 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xorbe Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 20 hours ago, BleepBloopBlop said: My poor motorcycle barely gets any attention now around town Yeah I'm going to sell one of my two motorcycles. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Mike Sacristan Posted December 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 11, 2019 Did some riding in snow yesterday. The 16X performed perfectly. I left it in a big bucket after the ride. Funny how it spits out so much snow in front of itself so that I can ride more snow while riding snow. Now there's probably a ton of dirt and goo in there so I will ride it out on the nice wet roads so it gets a shower. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Stern Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 @Mike Sacristan please remind us which tire you're using. I suppose I'm asking for a friend, as I won't be riding in snow unless I take my wheel to Lake Tahoe or Yosemite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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