King Song S18 Discussion

[Ben Kim]

Had to cancel my S18 order.  Rush design changes before production NEVER work out for the early adopters and roundabout canned responses from the KingSong PR guy (Jack King Song?) are beyond alarming.  I MIGHT consider buying this wheel after they iron out all the bugs and possibly come out with an XL version of this wheel, but nope, Kingsong is not going to get early adopter money out of me with a half-baked product.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Ben Kim

[.....]

10 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

Had to cancel my S18 order.  Rush design changes before production NEVER work out for the early adopters and roundabout canned responses from the KingSong PR guy (Jack King Song?) are beyond alarming.  I MIGHT consider buying this wheel after they iron out all the bugs and possibly come out with an XL version of this wheel, but nope, Kingsong is not going to get early adopter money out of me with a half-baked product.

I can understand your decision.  I'm going to remain hopeful and put my faith in my retailer. I'm assuming the first version may be a tinkerers special. If i didnt already have a dependable wheel and was ready to invest in one of those road kings, I'd be the same way. But alas, the lure of a monoshock and a b-day present wheel is too great. On the bright side, itll either be a fun ride or itll be fun bitching about how it isnt... Im versatile like that! I got tools, glue, ideas and time.... dangerous combination.

Edited June 30, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[FinRider]

8 hours ago, B08AH said:

inmotion superior what now? After V8?

 

i just have to post this again. All you need to know about inmotion suspension. And its safety.

 

This is easily explained, the S18 has built in ”kuji pads” that allows him to grab on to the wheel with his ankles (like he does when jumping as well) which is lacking from the V11. Add some pads to the V11 and I bet that the results are the same.

 

[Rehab1]

3 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Im versatile like that! I got tools, glue, ideas and time.... dangerous combination.

We’re brothers from a different mother! 

[ir_fuel]

11 hours ago, AtlasP said:

This is a strawman. Many responsible riders (including several prominent youtubers), without having "speed [as their] primary goal", consider mid-20s mph to be a sweet spot for the form factor, which means an 84v wheel that can hit 31 mph would/should be a totally fine choice (and it is now from _all other manufacturers_--from the 84v MSX/Nikola, to the new V11, and even the Z10).

No idea what you mean by this. You can perfectly cruise at 25mph with a KS16X.

And the Z10 doing 31mph? Would never risk that on mine.

[Afeez Kay]

On 6/29/2020 at 3:13 AM, Steef Klonoa said:

@onizukagto

I mean if they are easy to replace no big deal haha. It's hard to tell from a couple seconds of video how they are attached though. It looks to me like there are some cheap plastic fins on the main frame of the EUC that are bent.

I just removed mine. And I think it looks better 

[Steef Klonoa]

@Afeez Kay were the white panels easy to remove? How about those black panels that are visible now with the black fins on them, do you think they can be easily replaced if they get broken? Thanks Afeez.

[B08AH]

12 hours ago, FinRider said:

This is easily explained, the S18 has built in ”kuji pads” that allows him to grab on to the whee

No it is not. You can see him jump and see how built-in kujipads work. It is not them.

Spoiler

 

I heard a lot of attempts to justify it some other way. Now it is time to get back to the obvious explanation - V11 suspension sucks. I told it the day S18 was announced, that it will be much superior to V11, as it was obvious back then, and I am telling it now.

Edited June 30, 2020 by B08AH

[redfoxdude]

Why's it gotta be, "V11 suspension sucks?" Why can't it be, "suspension is freaking awesome, some just a bit more awesome than others?"

The different designs do have their trade-offs, and I'm sure that certain types are better than others in different ways. But no doubt, all of these suspension wheels are gonna be so much smoother than anything without suspension before! It's an exciting time for ride comfort and safety =]

Edited June 30, 2020 by redfoxdude

[FinRider]

30 minutes ago, B08AH said:

No it is not. You can see him jump and see how built-in kujipads work. It is not them.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I heard a lot of attempts to justify it some other way. Now it is time to get back to the obvious explanation - V11 suspension sucks. I told it the day S18 was announced, that it will be much superior to V11, as it was obvious back then, and I am telling it now.

what do you mean by ”its not them” ? I may not have been precise enough when I referenced the built in ”kuji-pads”.  The S18’s design has cut-outs for the medial malleolus, which clearly helps you to hold on to the wheel at all times. 

[mrelwood]

8 minutes ago, FinRider said:

what do you mean by ”its not them” ?

Because the answer doesn’t allow for clear rules-sucks classification. It doesn’t allow us to hate. The other simply has to suck in order for us to make up our mind, and so some people could hold their original stance and get to say “I told you so”.

But for the ones who entertain the blasphemy of judging a wheel as a whole... “I told you so the minute I saw the very first (low res 3D render) image on the S18.” There. I should feel much better now!

[Nifrigel]

Still I think people really downplay the difference in suspensions. It's kinda expected since we still don't have a single real direct comparison between S18 and V11, only a separate reviews and 3 seconds of poorly synchronized footage from different videos. But recently I got the feeling that everyone happily forgot that we are discussing 2k$ wheels there. And that suspension is the ONLY answer to why we are even discussing these heavily overpriced and far too heavy wheels with lots of potential problems. So waiting for actual direct comparisons and refraining from shitposting until then is is one thing, but saying "even if V11 suspension turns out to be far worse than S18, it doesn't matter, since the wheel overall is better" feels really strange. The wheel overall is garbage for its money. I mean seriously, look at the MSX or Nicola specs and then look at V11 or S18 specs again, keep price tags in mind. If one suspension really is much better than another, it's an obvious deal breaker.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Nifrigel

[Sentient]

28 minutes ago, Nifrigel said:

Still I think people really downplay the difference in suspensions. It's kinda expected since we still don't have a single real direct comparison between S18 and V11, only a separate reviews and 3 seconds of poorly synchronized footage from different videos. But recently I got the feeling that everyone happily forgot that we are discussing 2k$ wheels there. And that suspension is the ONLY answer to why we are even discussing these heavily overpriced and far too heavy wheels with lots of potential problems. So waiting for actual direct comparisons and refraining from shitposting until then is is one thing, but saying "even if V11 suspension turns out to be far worse than S18, it doesn't matter, since the wheel overall is better" feels really strange. The wheel overall is garbage for its money. I mean seriously, look at the MSX or Nicola specs and then look at V11 or S18 specs again, keep price tags in mind. If one suspension really is much better than another, it's an obvious deal breaker.

It's a about quality of the materials used, it's about the engineering- electrical and industrial, it's about thought and care put into the ECU that really differentiates the inmotion V11 from the rest of the contenders.  

Specs come in second, third, or fourth place to all these attributes. And the V11 can run with many of the contenders without suspension to boot.

Buy the steak for the steak-not the sizzle.

 

But then again to each his/her own.  Free market.

[stephen]

Even if the V11 suspension sucks i still have a good 1500wh wheel with great lights and a new designed motor 😁😁 

[musk]

8 minutes ago, stephen said:

Even if the V11 suspension sucks i still have a good 1500wh wheel with great lights and a new designed motor 😁😁 

I completely agree here.  I was due to buy a new wheel soon and would've purchased the V11 based on its non-suspension upgrades alone, over the V10f.  The suspension is just a really exciting bonus.

Gotway's lack of water-resistance means it's not even on the table for me.  In general, Gotway makes wheels which don't align with my priorities.

Edited June 30, 2020 by musk

[AtlasP]

55 minutes ago, Nifrigel said:

But recently I got the feeling that everyone happily forgot that we are discussing 2k$ wheels there. And that suspension is the ONLY answer to why we are even discussing these heavily overpriced and far too heavy wheels with lots of potential problems. So waiting for actual direct comparisons and refraining from shitposting until then is is one thing, but saying "even if V11 suspension turns out to be far worse than S18, it doesn't matter, since the wheel overall is better" feels really strange. The wheel overall is garbage for its money. I mean seriously, look at the MSX or Nicola specs and then look at V11 or S18 specs again, keep price tags in mind. If one suspension really is much better than another, it's an obvious deal breaker.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

? I have a feeling you haven't actually looked at specs recently.

• The V11 is the same exact price or cheaper than any other MSX SKU (now that the 84v MSX has been discontinued), and it's cheaper than all Nikola SKU's except one, within $100/basically nothing.
• The V11 is like a Nikola that weighs only 2kg more, has only 100-300 less Wh, while having superior ride quality, torque, headlight, weight distribution, IP rating, BMS, quality control/production values, etc.

If a 'mediocre' suspension gives it better ride quality than any other pre-suspension wheel (as Kuji says), that's still a huge attribute in its favor. Forget the word "suspension" if it distracts you from the reality so much--for all intents and purposes, the reality is that the V11 has "magic floaty pedals" that make it ride smoother than any previous EUC ever made. By itself that's still a huge asset over any 84v Nikola or MSX, even before you consider the V11 also has the same or better torque and all the other advantages (weight distribution, IP rating, lights, BMS, quality control, etc).

Edited June 30, 2020 by AtlasP

[Nifrigel]

Well, it seems prices are a bit different from Russian dealer. Here you can pre-order either a 2100 Wh 84V Nikola or 1845 Wh 100V Nikola or 1800 Wh 100V MSuper PRO HS for almost the same price as V11. Or you can get a 1600 Wh 84V Nikola 30% cheaper than V11. Actually I am not a Gotway guy either. I'm completely satisfied with my 1036Wh KS18L and I never ride faster than 30 mph. That's why even V11 is a bit of an overkill for me. What I'm trying to say is that if additional safety and comfort outweighs specs difference for you, and for me it definitely does, I see no reason not to sacrifice even more specs for more comfort and safety. For me this is by far the least worked out dimension in EUCs in general and from what I can see even S18 suspension is far from perfect.

[Shield]

3 hours ago, Sentient said:

It's a about quality of the materials used, it's about the engineering- electrical and industrial, it's about thought and care put into the ECU that really differentiates the inmotion V11 from the rest of the contenders.  

Specs come in second, third, or fourth place to all these attributes. And the V11 can run with many of the contenders without suspension to boot.

Buy the steak for the steak-not the sizzle.

 

But then again to each his/her own.  Free market.

^This...

 

[mrelwood]

The price difference between brands vary wildly around the world. In EU the V11 costs the same or less than the 18XL. Not that there’d be much wrong with the 18XL, but it’s an old wheel, and specs wise the V11 beats it in everything but the near identical battery size (1554 vs 1500 Wh).

 Comparing specs/price tends to always refer to GW. Of course they are cheaper, they are of lower quality in materials, manufacturing and design.

 Comparing speed, same thing. GW (and now it’s disciple Veteran) are the only brand that has made a wheel faster than the V11. Most riders don’t need a faster wheel.

Comparing battery again points to GW. For the range of 1554Wh 18XL, you need a GW with 2100Wh of battery. Both V11 and S18 allow lower riding voltage than GW, so it’s range should be somewhere in the middle. Should be no problem far outriding a 1600Wh GW.

 If you look at any deeper than skin deep into the specs, you could say that GW’s are the overpriced ones, since so much of the expensive and heavy battery is left unused.

Different needs and requirements.

Edited July 1, 2020 by mrelwood

[stephen]

49 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The price difference between brands vary wildly around the world. In EU the V11 costs the same or less than the 18XL. Not that there’d be much wrong with the 18XL, but it’s an old wheel, and specs wise the V11 beats it in everything but the near identical battery size (1554 vs 1500 Wh).

 Comparing specs/price tends to always refer to GW. Of course they are cheaper, they are of lower quality in materials, manufacturing and design.

 Comparing speed, same thing. GW (and now it’s disciple Veteran) are the only brand that has made a wheel faster than the V11. Most riders don’t need a faster wheel.

Comparing battery again points to GW. For the range of 1554Wh 18XL, you need a GW with 2100Wh of battery. Both V11 and S18 allow lower riding voltage than GW, so it’s range should be somewhere in the middle. Should be no problem far outriding a 1600Wh GW.

 If you look at any deeper than skin deep into the specs, you could say that GW’s are the overpriced ones, since so much of the expensive and heavy battery is left unused.

Different needs and requirements.

 now there's some good points i  never thought of  

Edited July 1, 2020 by stephen

[EUChristian]

Ah I see we are back to comparing these two wheels again. I see both sides of the argument. I’m going to wait for you guys to ride them both and tell me which one I should buy. I cancelled the preorder but if it works out S18 seems the right choice. 
 

v11just got a pro mode that flashes it to 35MPH top speed. I know I’m in the minority, but I would like to cruise around 30 on roads as needed. 
 

Kingsong can you do this as well?  Just a software upgrade - cheap and this would be very sweet...

[.....]

6 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

Kingsong can you do this as well?  Just a software upgrade - cheap and this would be very sweet...

Nothing comes free, remember that. Im sure KS COULD up the speed limit, but then it costs headroom/safety. I'm not sure that all the companies play by the same margins, so its hard to compare directly. Personally, I'd rather 5mph slower (forced on me), than dipping into headroom that I'm unsure of its limit.  MAYBE the v11 is built that it can achieve 5mph faster with the same headroom as the KS. Then again, maybe not. I've gotten over worrying about trying to get an extra 5mph from a wheel. I think we're at a crossroads where you either get around 30mph with its set compromises, or you buy HUGE and get more speed with its own set of compromises. I don't think most of the euc companies are all that eager to be in the news more than others, for cutout injuries that could easily get overblown and cost lots of $$.

Edited July 1, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Zopper]

1 minute ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Nothing comes free, remember that. Im sure KS COULD up the speed limit, but then it costs headroom/safety. I'm not sure that all the companies play by the same margins, so its hard to compare directly. Personally, I'd rather 5mph slower (forced on me), than dipping into headroom that I'm unsure of its limit.  MAYBE the v11 is built that it can achieve 5mph faster with the same headroom as the KS. Then again, maybe not. I've gotten over worrying about trying to get an extra 5mph from a wheel. I think we're at a crossroads where you either get around 30mph with its set compromises, or you buy HUGE and get more speed with its own set of compromises.

The V11 has the higher speed as a special firmware version, that should be uploaded somewhere reportedly, so it’s not something most people will do. I like that approach - there is a standard wheel with some safe margins, but if you really want to maim yourself and go faster, you have the option to flash a different firmware made more to your needs.

[.....]

6 minutes ago, Zopper said:

The V11 has the higher speed as a special firmware version, that should be uploaded somewhere reportedly, so it’s not something most people will do. I like that approach - there is a standard wheel with some safe margins, but if you really want to maim yourself and go faster, you have the option to flash a different firmware made more to your needs.

I like the approach as well. But.... this small detail is NOT going to make an ounce of difference in a legal sense or to protect the company should someone lawyer up after an incident. Im not trying to be overly negative, but it seems a little bit of a risk on the part of Inno. If the wheel can safely do 35mph, why must they slow it down for the general public? Is 30mph some magic number in legislation? Hitting a little 'accept the risk' button on an update that makes it faster, wont absolve the company of their liability. If 35mph is safe enough, why not just unlock the wheel for everyone? Maybe it IS plenty safe and this is yet another marketing tactic. They can appease the 'safe' crowd while also tossing the 'risky' crowd a bone...  All while knowing that its just a big gimmick? I'm all for faster wheels as long as they can safely do so. Inno is upping the game a bit and this can be a great thing for some. As far as making the wheel slow enough that you don't maim yourself, this is already a feature of nearly every current wheel on the market, via tiltback and alarm speeds. Oddly, my worst injury to date was at 2mph on an mten.... go figure.

Edited July 1, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[musk]

Anybody know if this is the motor's power wire wrapped in a metal spring for protection?  It's the first shot in this video:

https://youtu.be/MxeDze9YX0Q?t=1

 

If that's the motor power wire, having it exposed seems like it'll be prone to damage.  At least it's protected by a flipped-up pedal, but it looks like it'd be constantly be knocked by the foot.  Hopefully there's some extremely durable wiring being used.

Edited July 1, 2020 by musk