King Song S18 Discussion

[redfoxdude]

Yes, that contains the motor phase wires. I'm doubtful abrasions by one's foot will do much to the metal shielding, though. It is exposed, but mostly recessed. We'll see with time, though, I suppose 🤷‍♂️

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I like the approach as well. But.... this small detail is NOT going to make an ounce of difference in a legal sense or to protect the company should someone lawyer up after an incident.

I don’t think the legal aspect weighs much here. After all, GW has passed 40mph a long time ago on most of its product line, and now Veteran passes 50mph. Zero legal cases so far that I know of. If you do, please let me know.

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

If the wheel can safely do 35mph, why must they slow it down for the general public?

I really like the approach, and I think it would be a great one for all manufacturers. The 16X for example, 25mph by default and 31 with an enthusiast firmware would convey a clear message on what’s safe. No idea what the buffer on the S18 is.

This way IM will surely cut down the number of units that can go 35mph, and the ones that do are mostly ridden by experienced and enthusiastic riders. This is the closest we’ve been to a speed limit by experience level.

 IM was testing a 60km/h firmware as well, so I have zero doubt that the wheel wouldn’t be capable of 55km/h for far longer than the top 20% of the battery.

 

[Zopper]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I like the approach as well. But.... this small detail is NOT going to make an ounce of difference in a legal sense or to protect the company should someone lawyer up after an incident. Im not trying to be overly negative, but it seems a little bit of a risk on the part of Inno. If the wheel can safely do 35mph, why must they slow it down for the general public? Is 30mph some magic number in legislation? Hitting a little 'accept the risk' button on an update that makes it faster, wont absolve the company of their liability. If 35mph is safe enough, why not just unlock the wheel for everyone? Maybe it IS plenty safe and this is yet another marketing tactic. They can appease the 'safe' crowd while also tossing the 'risky' crowd a bone...  All while knowing that its just a big gimmick? I'm all for faster wheels as long as they can safely do so. Inno is upping the game a bit and this can be a great thing for some. As far as making the wheel slow enough that you don't maim yourself, this is already a feature of nearly every current wheel on the market, via tiltback and alarm speeds. Oddly, my worst injury to date was at 2mph on an mten.... go figure.

I don't think it is because of a legal protection. IMO it is an attempt to grab some Gotway users without compromising on their own safety records. I think of it as a "Gotway mode switch for pro users."

The standard version is with the Inmotion level of margins, where you can set the max speed and have a reasonable trust that the wheel is not going to throw you off if you listen to the raising pedals. If you think that this is happening too early, you are willing to go further, have the experience and have no issue with riding on the edge, then you can, but if you get a cutout, it's "up to you" - you intentionally flashed the firmware. But a casual user won't do that. OTH, if it was just an extended slider, there would be plenty of people who would set it and then had a bigger chance of a cutoff.

[Steven89]

Sorry for the question.. .. you all talk a lot of this cutout/cutoff at max speed.

You mean that it is possible that the weel shut down if taken at his limit? (without firmware changings I mean). Can anyone give me a fast explaination why this even exist?

I ask this because for now I got a ninebot s2 (waiting for the S18) and when I reach the top speed it simply tilt back with an acustic alarm. Thought it was like this on all wheels.

[Zopper]

25 minutes ago, Steven89 said:

Sorry for the question.. .. you all talk a lot of this cutout/cutoff at max speed.

You mean that it is possible that the weel shut down if taken at his limit? (without firmware changings I mean). Can anyone give me a fast explaination why this even exist?

I ask this because for now I got a ninebot s2 (waiting for the S18) and when I reach the top speed it simply tilt back with an acustic alarm. Thought it was like this on all wheels.

Yes, it is possible. There are physical limits to the wheel performance and if you cross them, you either get a "soft" cutout, when the wheel is at the max power, which is not enough anymore, but it still tries its best (and you have a short opportunity to swing yourself back and slow down, unless going down a hill and it's the braking that's not enough). Or there is an overload and the wheel shuts off to prevent a fire risk.

You can try the soft, underpowered feeling if you ride down a steep (but short, a few feet, for your safety) ramp. The wheel won't be able to slow down and will take up speed against your will - trying to brake it more will just cause you to fall, so you have to let it go faster. Or you can try to overbrake it when going slow. The S2 shouldn't take much effort,  just wear wrist guards, because you will probably hit the palms against the ground. :-)

Some wheels don't give a much of a tiltback warning and the beeping is hard to hear if you are going 30+ mph with a motorbike helmet on your head. Or the wheel is managing so-so, you hit a bump or a wind gust, and the power requirements suddenly spikes too high, because there was a small safety margin that was momentarily overshoot. Some manufacturers makes the margin wider (Inmotion), some smaller (Gotway), depending on their target customer group. And what we are discussing here is Inmotion trying to target two different groups of riders with the same wheel by providing two firmware versions with different safety margins.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Zopper

[fbhb]

King Song has announced the changes to be made for the final production run of the KS S18 and can be found on Rev Rides web site.  So King Song has been listening to all the feedback from the pre-production demo S18's sent out to YouTubers/Influencers etc. and addressed the issues

I have also been told by King Song that the final choice of tire for the S18 will be the Chao Yang H5102.  This was a change from the expected H-666 which I am told is no longer made by Chao Yang, so unable to be supplied to King Song in large enough numbers for production.  I would also imagine that the profile of the H5102 will help with clearance along with the changes mention in point number 3. below!

 

https://revrides.com/blogs/news/major-changes?fbclid=IwAR3-ohb3Sk3CmJCgyt7UA3UJ86_oCIAO9MnZAgBcs-SVC19yvzB4UEH2V2E

 

11 MAJOR CHANGES ON THE KING SONG S18 PRODUCTION MODEL

June 30, 2020

As prototype King Song S18s were passed out to content creators to be tested and reviewed, electric unicycle enthusiasts started to question some design and functionality features. Fortunately, these concerns were about a prototype, so King Song listened and addressed them.

Here is a list of changes and improvements on the production model King Song S18:

1. Adjustable Pedal -Structural: The pedals are adjustable allowing riders to lower the platform by 2cm. This allows riders of different heights to have better control and increased comfort levels on the S18.
2. Mudguard- Back fender: Previous mudguard was secured by glue and one screw. The final production is secured by a total of 3, one on each shell and one in between with the addition of glue.
3. Tiring rubbing noise: Some prototypes experienced a rubbing noise issue. The tire we used on prototype is a little bit wider than massive production, and the mainboard holder tubes had some errors, so the tire might be pushed to one side and scratched the body shell. We’ve adjusted the moldings/dimensions to eliminate these issues.
4. Wobbliness: Users experienced issues where the wheel would wobble when braking. After testing we eliminated the issue being suspension related but was rather padding related. Users could not grip the wheel when braking hard, we have since increased the PU pad thickness from 4mm to 12mm.
5. Top of wheel hurting inner knee: The padding was not thick enough causing the knee to interact with the harder elements of the wheel. Final production will have increased the PU pad thickness from 4mm to 12mm.
6. Body shell: Some users experienced the case not being durable enough when crashing. We started using a material with more flexibility causing it to be less brittle. ABS+PC.
7. Outer shells popping off: Users experienced the white body panels coming off when crashing, we have increased the thickness of the clips so they don’t come off as easily.
8. Handle: Sometimes the trigger button gets stuck, we’ve added a crystal silicon logo above the button to create a uniform force downwards.
9. Steel Slide: To increase the durability of our suspension we have changed the sliders from aluminum to steel. The steel is treated to protect it against elements.
10. Suspension support frame: Suspension support frame is changed from space grey to gold.
11. Padding durability: We have changed the material for the padding so it doesn’t rub off as easily.

[sbouju]

On 6/17/2020 at 7:38 PM, Jj Luo said:

This is the response I got from Ewheels.

"We do have a 780Wh King Song battery bank in stock, which if used with the S18 would get you up to 1890Wh, for $650. It would be carried in a backpack and trickle charge the main batteries.

(...)

 

Hi,

I already have such an external 84V battery in a backpack, which I use sometimes for longer trips with my wheel (Gotway MSX), just plugging it (with basic precautions) in its charging port.

Any chance to be able to use it in the same and easy way with a KS-S18...?

[null]

Too bad if they stop producing the H666 as it seems to be the better EUC street tyre. I hope it’s for replacing it with something better.

In the meantime I’ll have to order one for my (upcoming) Sherman before they run out.

[Afeez Kay]

19 hours ago, Steef Klonoa said:

@Afeez Kay were the white panels easy to remove? How about those black panels that are visible now with the black fins on them, do you think they can be easily replaced if they get broken? Thanks Afeez.

The white panels are somewhat easy to remove. There are screws holding them in place. The black fins look spectacular btw.. but I imagine dropping them won’t be easy to fix. I haven’t done that yet, so fingers crossed 🤞 

[EUChristian]

6 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I like the approach as well. But.... this small detail is NOT going to make an ounce of difference in a legal sense or to protect the company should someone lawyer up after an incident. Im not trying to be overly negative, but it seems a little bit of a risk on the part of Inno. If the wheel can safely do 35mph, why must they slow it down for the general public? Is 30mph some magic number in legislation? Hitting a little 'accept the risk' button on an update that makes it faster, wont absolve the company of their liability. If 35mph is safe enough, why not just unlock the wheel for everyone? Maybe it IS plenty safe and this is yet another marketing tactic. They can appease the 'safe' crowd while also tossing the 'risky' crowd a bone...  All while knowing that its just a big gimmick? I'm all for faster wheels as long as they can safely do so. Inno is upping the game a bit and this can be a great thing for some. As far as making the wheel slow enough that you don't maim yourself, this is already a feature of nearly every current wheel on the market, via tiltback and alarm speeds. Oddly, my worst injury to date was at 2mph on an mten.... go figure.

I like this approach too. A special unlockable pro version. Folks there still is a safety margin, it just changes the algorithm on how the wheel reacts to battery changes over time (changes throttling structure). 
 

I’m not trying to ride at 35, I’m trying to ride at 30 with headroom which is in fact safe. 
 

I cannot imagine the fix could be that expensive. A couple days worth of labor for their coder?  Maybe at max two weeks?  It’s a powerful motor it can handle it. 

[EUChristian]

3 hours ago, Steven89 said:

Sorry for the question.. .. you all talk a lot of this cutout/cutoff at max speed.

You mean that it is possible that the weel shut down if taken at his limit? (without firmware changings I mean). Can anyone give me a fast explaination why this even exist?

I ask this because for now I got a ninebot s2 (waiting for the S18) and when I reach the top speed it simply tilt back with an acustic alarm. Thought it was like this on all wheels.

This is a rare event now. Used to be much more prone to these before tech caught up. Yes tilt back will kick you back but some wheels you can disable and some you can’t. I can easily feel tilt back in my KS16.  

[EUChristian]

All I want to see is this thing take a tumbling high speed event in stride. I have this nightmare scenario in my head where I’ve fallen off the wheel and it’s rolling down a hill like a coin rolling off a table top throwing panels as far as the eye can see. 
 

glad to see they increased the clip thickness 

[redfoxdude]

16 hours ago, fbhb said:

Body shell: Some users experienced the case not being durable enough when crashing. We started using a material with more flexibility causing it to be less brittle. ABS+PC.

Outer shells popping off: Users experienced the white body panels coming off when crashing, we have increased the thickness of the clips so they don’t come off as easily.

Handle: Sometimes the trigger button gets stuck, we’ve added a crystal silicon logo above the button to create a uniform force downwards.

Steel Slide: To increase the durability of our suspension we have changed the sliders from aluminum to steel. The steel is treated to protect it against elements.

Suspension support frame: Suspension support frame is changed from space grey to gold.

Ah, a little bit more detailed than the eWheels announcement. So they apparently did change the material for the shell, I wasn't sure if it was a change, or just a statement of what material is being used. The thicker clips should be a good thing, I hope.

That silicone logo above the button probably will indeed make the button easier to press. The eWheels announcement just said crystal silicone compound, and I had no idea what that meant, LOL

Neat detail on what was actually changed to steel. I first thought it was related to the slide portion of the mechanism, but then people started talking about the x frame... Seems that got lost in translation. Good to see it clarified.

And gold x frame again! Can uh, we get the battery housings in red like the prototype, too? 

Edited July 2, 2020 by redfoxdude

[fryman]

12 hours ago, fbhb said:

King Song has announced the changes to be made for the final production run of the KS S18 and can be found on Rev Rides web site.  So King Song has been listening to all the feedback from the pre-production demo S18's sent out to YouTubers/Influencers etc. and addressed the issues

Still don't see more battery added.

[Nifrigel]

More battery = more weight, I don't want more battery. S18 XL later maybe? But they need to launch S18 first.

[BleepBloopBlop]

Battery pack size is directly proportional to power output from a wheel up to saturation of the motor. I'd definitely be buying one of these S18 wheels if they had 1500+wh. 

 

[fbhb]

6 hours ago, fryman said:

Still don't see more battery added.

 

5 hours ago, Nifrigel said:

More battery = more weight, I don't want more battery. S18 XL later maybe? But they need to launch S18 first.

I'm sure everyone would love for the S18 to have a larger battery capacity/greater range myself included, but all these requests for an S18 XL are most likely pointless in this current design, it's just not going to happen!  IMHO King Song will be unable to fit any more cells to the S18 without making the wheel considerably wider/compromising handling/redesigning etc., as there is plain and simply NO available space for more battery!!!

It can be seen in the photo below that the design of the wheel meant having to split the battery into Four compartments, one tall and one short per side,  which was necessary to allow all the room that the more complex suspension system requires.  Any additional cells would need to be added in those four areas to maintain the wheels COG/balanced handling, but as there is no available space height-wise cells could only be added to the side of each pack thus losing the wheels slim profile/sculpted lines. 

I feel sure that King Song knowingly made this compromise with the 1100wh pack due to only having just enough space available, rather than some peoples notion that they are keeping a larger battery version waiting in the wings! 

I'm buying it as is, there is no point waiting in the hope it will magically grow more cells!

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by fbhb

[.....]

No way @fbhb, they purposely decided to work within reality. They could have easily sprinkled some magic dust and gotten us a 60mph wheel that can go 120miles per charge and weigh only 40lbs, while being small enough to comfortably ride. We ALL know that KS is just holding out...

[fbhb]

S18 motherboard mounted directly on to the alloy top frame to help with passive cooling!

Edited July 2, 2020 by fbhb

[Tinkererboi]

Ya'll are missing out the fact that we are witnessing the the biggest leap in EUC technology so far... LOCKTITE!!

[stephen]

1 hour ago, Tinkererboi said:

Ya'll are missing out the fact that we are witnessing the the biggest leap in EUC technology so far... LOCKTITE!!

Better than glue😂

[RockyTop]

On 7/1/2020 at 5:59 AM, sbouju said:

Hi,

I already have such an external 84V battery in a backpack, which I use sometimes for longer trips with my wheel (Gotway MSX), just plugging it (with basic precautions) in its charging port.

Any chance to be able to use it in the same and easy way with a KS-S18...?

If it is 84 volts as you have said, you would just need an adapter to get from GW 84 volt pin out to the KS18 84 volt Lenovo plug. It should work in the same way that it works for the MSX. 

[sbouju]

47 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

If it is 84 volts as you have said, you would just need an adapter to get from GW 84 volt pin out to the KS18 84 volt Lenovo plug. It should work in the same way that it works for the MSX. 

Good news! Thank you... 

 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, RockyTop said:

If it is 84 volts as you have said, you would just need an adapter to get from GW 84 volt pin out to the KS18 84 volt Lenovo plug. It should work in the same way that it works for the MSX. 

There has been differences in the wheel behaviour with different firmware versions while charging. At some point I think the motor even disengaged when plugging in the charger. GW doesn't know or care, but KS behaviour would be best checked before purchasing anything.

 

By the way, as a reminder to everybody: Don't buy a KingSong wheel from unauthorized dealers, such as Aliexpress, Chickway, Banggood and what have you. The dark gloom of possible remote locking or limiting the top speed still long after purchasing the wheel is still there:

 

[RockyTop]

15 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

There has been differences in the wheel behaviour with different firmware versions while charging. At some point I think the motor even disengaged when plugging in the charger. GW doesn't know or care, but KS behaviour would be best checked before purchasing anything.

 

 

Is that new? The Kingsong s18 is advertised to have the ability to charge on the go on eWheels website.