King Song S18 Discussion

[EUChristian]

21 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Afeez stripped his and had it painted black himself if thats where any confusion comes in

Thank you!  That’s a future mod for me. Better to put my money into this than a car (and cheaper)

will be getting the panels dipped at some point too. 

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, Steef Klonoa said:

@mrelwood

Do you have any recommendations similar to the 666 that would be better for off road? I was hoping for a tire on this that wasn't geared entirely to street riding.

I should find one for myself as well (not for the S18 but in general), so I’ll have to start looking again. I’m actually looking for one that would hopefully have a bit rougher pattern than the H-666. We’ll see.

 For now the CST C-1488 would already be a worthy upgrade for the S18.

Edited July 4, 2020 by mrelwood

[Heyzeus]

20 hours ago, fbhb said:

I have to say, I'm really impressed with how this is the first wheel that is actually structurally built from an all metal skeleton frame.  Unlike everything else out there that has heavy batteries/motors etc. all hanging off flimsy plastic!  This wheel's build concept takes a New approach for EUC design which is an engineering feat IMHO and I can't wait to get mine!

The ninebot one c+(and I'm guessing the C, E, e+ and similar variations) has an internal metal frame with the plastic bolted to the metal.

https://www.xiaomitoday.com/xiaomi-ninebot-c-unicycle-for-just-299-99/

I think it's why the c+ is such a great beginner wheel because it can take such a beating, I don't think that metal part is directly bolted to the hub but instead is a reinforcement between the two plastic shells so King song may be taking it further 

[Steef Klonoa]

Thanks @mrelwood ! I will have to take a look into this...as well as how to swap a tire on the S18 haha. I'll plan on riding out that first tire as long as it seems fit though. I am used to the Z10 tire which seems to have more grip than the CY 5102

[B08AH]

These guys clearly demonstrated how kujipads work. 

Guy on the left jumps without grabbing onto the pads, guy on the right jumps properly, with the pads.

 

Btw Duf performed a range test for both V11 and S18, 

Spoiler

 

TLDR:   V11  33.5 miles, 36% remaining, 72.8V,     S18 34.8 miles, 34% remaining

[Steef Klonoa]

@B08AH I saw that test! Because the V11 is heavier, the S18 can compete with its range. Although I do remember hearing the S18 would be heavier than it was first announced, so I don't know if Duf's original test with the S18 had been performed with the lighter version.

[Ben Kim]

35 minutes ago, B08AH said:

These guys clearly demonstrated how kujipads work. 

Guy on the left jumps without grabbing onto the pads, guy on the right jumps properly, with the pads.

 

Btw Duf performed a range test for both V11 and S18, 

  Hide contents

 

TLDR:   V11  33.5 miles, 36% remaining, 72.8V,     S18 34.8 miles, 34% remaining

V11 also goes faster since speed reporting is true to scale, Kingsong is known to inflate speed and mileage by a factor of 10-20%, which explains the discrepancy. 

There were plenty of discussions on this forum about KS inflated speed reporting. 

[Zopper]

41 minutes ago, B08AH said:

Btw Duf performed a range test for both V11 and S18, 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

TLDR:   V11  33.5 miles, 36% remaining, 72.8V,     S18 34.8 miles, 34% remaining

That's for the pre-production V11, so not that useful.  The production one should have a bit more range because of better cells. There is also firmware optimisation and changes in V11, but KS could do the same for S18 without announcing it. But then the S18 is getting a bit heavier, so I consider it as almost sure that the final V11 will have more range. The question is: by how much. Someone in the V11 thread made a guess that the production V11 could have about 45% instead of 36%. And of course, we don't know exact speed profile of both rides and I still don't know which wheel I will end up with.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Zopper

[B08AH]

7 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

V11 also goes faster since speed reporting is true to scale, Kingsong is known to inflate speed and mileage by a factor of 10-20%, which explains the discrepancy. 

There were plenty of discussions on this forum about KS inflated speed reporting.

He is using Garmin device on his wrist for both speed and distance. So those inflations would not affect his measurements even if they were true. And they are not. 

[B08AH]

13 minutes ago, Zopper said:

 The production one should have a bit more range because of better cells.

1420 vs 1480. 4% higher capacity.

 

15 minutes ago, Zopper said:

And of course, we don't know exact speed profile of both rides

Except that we do. It is 18-20m/h for both rides.

[B08AH]

19 minutes ago, Zopper said:

Someone in the V11 thread made a guess that the production V11 could have about 45% instead of 36%.

Yeah, people keep pulling theories out in favor of V11.

It would be much easier to compare voltages, but unfortunately Duf only told V11's voltage.

[Ben Kim]

28 minutes ago, B08AH said:

He is using Garmin device on his wrist for both speed and distance. So those inflations would not affect his measurements even if they were true. And they are not. 

Considering he’s not running these wheels to empty, he is still gathering data from two different sources and using battery percentage as the comparable, which is like using a licked finger to gauge wind speed. 
 

Also, consider due to speed inflation on the KS wheel he may have very well been traveling 16-18 mph instead of 18-20 on both wheels. 

Best way to compare range is to run both batteries dead THEN compare total distance traveled removing battery levels as a variable. 

[TheBladeOfHades]

The 2200 watt motor will also draw a bit more power in the production model.

i would like to know the average wh usage from anyone who has ridden it. 

[EUChristian]

1 hour ago, Ben Kim said:

Considering he’s not running these wheels to empty, he is still gathering data from two different sources and using battery percentage as the comparable, which is like using a licked finger to gauge wind speed. 
 

Also, consider due to speed inflation on the KS wheel he may have very well been traveling 16-18 mph instead of 18-20 on both wheels. 

Best way to compare range is to run both batteries dead THEN compare total distance traveled removing battery levels as a variable. 

I agree with you minus your absurd statement that this test is akin to a “licked finger in the wind”. No it isn’t. It’s not perfect but it’s not a guess either. 
 

Once you try to get the test “perfectly just” you will fail because there is no way to do a perfect test on a wheel. First one being - does the road look flat or is proven 100% flat?  Second being altitude. Can’t factor that out either. 
 

I don’t ride a wheel in a science lab I ride on the road and this real world data from Duf is good enough for me. 

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, B08AH said:

1420 vs 1480. 4% higher capacity.

1420 vs 1500Wh. 5.6%.

3 hours ago, B08AH said:

Yeah, people keep pulling theories out in favor of V11.

I agree, without context it sounds like that.

 Inmotion showed the plan for the production firmware and asked for feedback on the throttling behavior. The plan goes down to 0% at 63V, and 30% was said to be at 70.0V. On this new plan Duf’s 72.3V would show as 42%. The 37% he saw points to 0% at 68V, which is the traditional Inmotion approach and therefore reasonable to expect in a demo unit.

 This is the exact same thing we’ve seen between the 18XL and MSX 1600Wh. The MSX gets much shorter range, but it’s not because it consumes more energy. When the MSX stops riding at 66V, the 18XL still shows 25% of battery left.

BLDC motors are very simple, and their power consumption varies very little. Usable 1500Wh gets you as far as your riding style (Wh/km) allows. Which wheel you ride doesn’t matter much at all. What varies largely is the usable capacity, ie. how many Wh the firmware allows to be used from the battery.

I think the most I’ve been able to charge into the 1600Wh MSX at once was about 1300Wh. That’s the usable capacity.

3 hours ago, B08AH said:

It would be much easier to compare voltages, but unfortunately Duf only told V11's voltage.

I don’t know if the S18 goes down to 60V or 63V, but Duf’s 34% should point to either 68.2V or 70.1V. The difference to the V11 is obvious.

[Ben Kim]

2 hours ago, TheBladeOfHades said:

The 2200 watt motor will also draw a bit more power in the production model.

i would like to know the average wh usage from anyone who has ridden it. 

only if you accelerate hard, if it draws more current at all. Chinese companies have a nasty little habit of changing numbers around without actually changing anything. 

I find it odd about the batteries though. I thought the V11 was going to have LG cells from day one, never knew they were going to have chinese cells at any point (chinese 18650s is dealbreaking for me). 

[Ben Kim]

2 hours ago, EUChristian said:

I agree with you minus your absurd statement that this test is akin to a “licked finger in the wind”. No it isn’t. It’s not perfect but it’s not a guess either. 
 

Once you try to get the test “perfectly just” you will fail because there is no way to do a perfect test on a wheel. First one being - does the road look flat or is proven 100% flat?  Second being altitude. Can’t factor that out either. 
 

I don’t ride a wheel in a science lab I ride on the road and this real world data from Duf is good enough for me. 

As @mrelwood stated just above this reply, percentages do not dictate real world range at all, the only way to do a proper range comparison is to run these wheels dead at an equivalent speed on the same road. @Marty Backe does his tests properly as reasonably allowable. 

[UniVehje]

29 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

only if you accelerate hard, if it draws more current at all.

Not even hard acceleration would cause more consumption as it would work at peak power  anyway. It’s really very difficult to come up with a scenario where motor power rating would have anything to do with consumption.

[stephen]

All i know is v11 is 1500wh and s18 1100wh surley that's more the weight difference is small🤔 , it might be that the v11 has a big bottom end tank than the s18

[fbhb]

[FreeRide]

 

[EUChristian]

2 hours ago, FreeRide said:

 

This is what I’m talking about. 
 

as mentioned in the comments of the video - he should have gotten the wheel first or close to it...

Edited July 6, 2020 by EUChristian

[onizukagto]

3 hours ago, FreeRide said:

 

Noice! 

I like chooch honest opinion, he's more of a veteran bloke, but the S18 hits all the right places for looks and off-roading, it fits his niche to the tee.

If you got the means, definitely one to add to the collection. 

Also have to look up this Jimmy Chang bloke... Never heard of him. But cool how all the EUC youtuber are helping each other to review the shiny new stuff! 

 

[FreeRide]

Ya ewheels needs to send the wheels to Marty and Chooch first, then the NY guys can beat them up and show off if they want.  Ideally wheels would go to Kuji, West Coast US, East Coast US, Russia, Poland, UK, France, etc,  all at the same time. 

[.....]

1 hour ago, FreeRide said:

Ya ewheels needs to send the wheels to Marty and Chooch first, then the NY guys can beat them up and show off if they want.  Ideally wheels would go to Kuji, West Coast US, East Coast US, Russia, Poland, UK, France, etc,  all at the same time. 

Don't forget, I should get mine first too, as im super dooper special...