INMOTION V11 (2020)

[UniVehje]

27 minutes ago, Seba said:

I've edited my post to add more data, as conclusion is quite interesting - regardless of ride distance, average riding speed is only about 20 km/h (13 mph).

Could it be possible to find out an estimation of average cruising speed, once the acceleration is done and the wheel is cruising for at least 5 minutes and before braking. I think stop-and-go city traffic influences the result. I typically only ride fast when the road is clear and I’m not heading to another crossing soon. That’s when a slower wheel would start to annoy me.
 

 

[.....]

38 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Could it be possible to find out an estimation of average cruising speed, once the acceleration is done and the wheel is cruising for at least 5 minutes and before braking. I think stop-and-go city traffic influences the result. I typically only ride fast when the road is clear and I’m not heading to another crossing soon. That’s when a slower wheel would start to annoy me.
 

 

I'm not sure 'stop and go' is quite the same as 'cruising'. I think average speed on longer trips is about as reliable as we can get. Not including the time sitting at a stop, is already calculated. Like it or not, the stopping in traffic IS part of your 'cruise'.  What idea are you trying to support with the request? Not being an ass, just trying to figure out where you're going with that train of thought. I would think that a stop or two even DURING a 5-10 minute trip, wouldnt lower the average by much,? Where I ride, its easy to go 24 miles and not ever stop. I consider that cruising.

Edited May 16, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[UniVehje]

26 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Like it or not, the stopping in traffic IS part of your 'cruise'.  What idea are you trying to support with the request?

Yes, that is clear from above. I think my post is clear already. The point is to analyse the data and filter out only the parts when people ride for a long time on an open road. And this in relation to the discussion at hand about how these polls and average speeds reflect to the specs being enough for majority of riders. It's really just a few parts of the rides when it's even possible to utilise the higher speeds available and can be lost in the data even when looking only at longer tours. 

[travsformation]

Very well put, @mrelwood.  Current-wheel limitations are surely something worth taking into account (although I can't help asking...WHY? What are these people waiting for to upgrade? Sell your car! Sell your kids if you have to! ). The number of questions polls allow also limits how valuable the info is (as well as any cross-referencing having to be manual), I would have loved to include more questions, contrast user responses (user distance/speed vs. the range/speed of the wheel they commonly ride, riders' current max. distance/speed is X, vs. what their ideal distance/speed is), etc., but I wasn't trying to make a rigorous study, just get a glimpse into riders' habits to see how it compared to the specs of new wheels being released. Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that the V11 and S18 meet and exceed most users' current habits, based on the wheel they currently ride (with all the implications and conclusions that can be drawn from that statement).

As to the rest, it's hard to disagree with most of your points. Except maybe these two: 

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I especially disagree on how you translate the results on speed and range. If you ask car drivers about their average or even maximum trip length, I’m absolutely certain that none of them would buy a new car with a gas tank that just barely allows their current trips. Same with the top speed. I practically never drive faster than 110km/h, yet I would never buy a car with a top speed of 110km/h. Especially if the top speed starts to get lower when the tank is 70% or even 50% full.

Distance: If the V11 has a realistic range of let's say 90 km and we consider the that 90% of users don't exceed 60 km tours for leisure, that's still 30% more than what 90% of riders will need on an average trip. And among the remaining 10%, who does more than 90 km? (except for @Seba). 

Tours longer than 90 km are rare (for most users), and I dare speculate it has nothing to do with the wheel's range (although who knows, the comfort provided by suspension might change those figures). With current battery technology, I figure those who do have fully accepted that taking a charger with them is a must. Also, the V11's weight is a turnoff for a lot of users (no data on that), increasing range any further means venturing into 30 kg territory...how many people would buy a 30 or more kg wheel?

Speed: I'm not sure it's a fair comparison to compare EUC speeds to cars'...there's no risk of cutouts, they don't require balancing, stability (4 wheels and so forth), etc. Apples and oranges. With cars, speed limits are required, with EUCs, I think most people tend to limit themselves based on personal risk assessment. 35 km/h is a comfortable cruising---not too slow, not too fast (it's my max. speed if I have errands to run and don't have time to put on any protective gear). Which leads me to my next point:

I have a feeling (no hard data to back it with) that many of us power riders/nutjobs who enjoy long tours, heavy-duty off-roading, high-speed riding or all of the above may be inclined to think other riders share our habits and priorities, while most data (from polls, EUC World, etc.) seems to point to the fact that we're actually a minority, and most users aren't seeking to push range, speed or off-road limits. We also tend to be the most vocal and critical when new wheels are released,  while riders whose needs new wheels cater to perfectly (or surpass) are less likely to spend hours debating specs in 30-page threads...

Meaning that the geeks those of us having this discussion in the first place are probably in no way representative of the community at large (there are 85 people following this thread and 63 following the S18's...and that doesn't even account for all the people who aren't in the forum). Just saying... 

Maybe manufacturers are actually spot on, making wheels that meet and exceed most users' needs, and not doing that bad a job meeting those of more hardcore enthusiasts...Entirely meeting them would probably not be a very profitable endeavor... 

Edit: I'm really arguing against my own best interest, aren't it? 

The other point I disagree with is this one:

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

That data makes 50km/h an insufficient safe top speed for 55% of riders right now!

That should read "That data makes 50km/h an insufficient safe top speed for 55% of riders right now! anyone not riding a GW"  

Edited May 16, 2020 by travsformation

[travsformation]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

wow @Seba i am quite surprised at how low the speeds are. You definitely have the data to check and verify it. 11mph average? 20mph max? WTF, why not just jog? Thanks for the info!

Urban and suburban riding (bike lanes, side-walk riding + pedestrians,  etc.), as well as off-roading, probably (partially) account for those stats.

Also, take into account that these aren't average cruising speeds, but average speed in motion, so they include acceleration, deceleration, etc. I'm often surprised at how my average speed in motion for my EUC World tours is much lower than I thought it was. Testing FW 1.05 the other day I thought I'd been cruising at or above 40 km/h most of the ride, but when I looked at the stats, my avg. riding speed was 22 km/h. Slowing down for speed-bumps, stop-lights, turns, accelerating again, etc....comes to show. Check the avg. speed for some of your last tours, you'll see what I mean

Edited May 16, 2020 by travsformation

[travsformation]

2 hours ago, UniVehje said:

Could it be possible to find out an estimation of average cruising speed, once the acceleration is done and the wheel is cruising for at least 5 minutes and before braking

5' doesn't seem feasible. A full minute of sustained speed and current is already a lot, IMO. I have the impression that even 30" of zero acceleration/deceleration isn't all that common. Maybe it would have to be studied within speed ranges rather than constant speed (a variation of up to 5 km/h maybe?)

[Asphalt]

5 hours ago, Seba said:

According to EUC World data:

1) for all tours recorded, a typical maximum speed is 32 km/h (32.8 km/h median, 31.8 km/h average). Typical average riding speed is about 17 km/h (17.3 km/h median, 17 km/h average). Average riding speed doesn't include any stops or breaks. Data based on almost 55,000 tours, over a total distance of over 500,000 kilometres.

2) for tours at least 5 km long, a typical maximum speed is 40 km/h (38.9 km/h median, 40.9 km/h average). Typical average riding speed is about 20 km/h (20 km/h median, 20.5 km/h average). Again - average riding speed doesn't include any stops or breaks. Data based on almost 27,000 tours, over a total distance of over 456,000 kilometres.

3) for tours at least 50 km long, a typical maximum speed is 45-50 km/h (43.2 km/h median, 54.2 km/h average). Typical average riding speed is about 22 km/h (20.7 km/h median, 23 km/h average). Again - average riding speed doesn't include any stops or breaks. Data based on over 900 tours, over a total distance of over 67,000 kilometres.

As we can see, riders mostly ride with average speed of only about 20 km/h (about 13 mph) and this is quite constant value, regardless of riding distance.

This is great data.

It would be interesting to compare it to car data.
Apparently the average speed of a car in mid-town Manhattan is 4.7 mph.
Source: https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/14/18623149/uber-movement-average-car-speed-data-cities

I wonder how many car manufacturers make their design decisions based on average driver speed?

Edited May 16, 2020 by Asphalt
Weird duplication upon submission, corrected.

[Unventor]

6 hours ago, buell47 said:

Of course, if everything is perfect in your case, we have clarified this and similar issues and can finally close this chapter.

You don't need faster or more range and it is not allowed to ride faster anyway, so even in the middle of the wilderness between owls and bears you would definitely not ride faster than the law allows, even if there is a bear chasing you. 

Now feel how you like about my opinion, I couldn't care less, honestly, I really don't care. But I don't mock you on your opinion.

That said how many times have you been chased by a bear? Because next time I love to see how fit it is compared to here in Sweden.

But I rather ride within the limits I am allowed and be allowed to ride, that get a total ban that is heavily enforced, with fines, confiscation of wheels and all that hassle.

We have many countries that are moving towards a ban. It might be the case where you live @buell47 but since it is inside EU I think you still need to consider what an EU ban would mean to you and requesting longer range and faster wheels. I don’t want to end up as we have heard about both from Germany and UK.

I would rather get our wheels accepted in general and then it becomes easier to get allowance to go faster, just as it happened for e-bicycles. Going from assisted max 25kmh to fully self-propelled up to 45kmh.

I do think it is interesting data that @Seba listed above. In general I just thing people are too focused on speed. 

 

[Unventor]

19 minutes ago, Asphalt said:

This is great data.

It would be interesting to compare it to car data.
Apparently the average speed of a car in mid-town Manhattan is 4.7 mph.
Source: https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/14/18623149/uber-movement-average-car-speed-data-cities

I wonder how many car manufacturers make their design decisions based on average driver speed?

It depends what cars you are looking at and what other options fitted around this. Technically we see cars going 1000kmh but are they practical? it isn't that it cannot be done....

Looking at electric cars you will see they are not in general made to super fast compared to cars and range is the huge issue vs price too. So they are trying to find a balance in this. The goal here is to make it cheap enough to sell and since there is a upper limit to how fast yu are allowed to go it doesn't make sence to pass that with a huge margin. Yes the tesla cars are very fast in accelerations, but between gass sports car and tesla versions they are still not high speed cars. 

No matter what product you are to launch you have to look at expected value to the buyer and how much they will spend. It does not mean you cannot push that limit but you still need to consider it. I recall the first reaction here that both S100 and V11 were too expensive. Yet we see several have still placed pre-orders.

[Phong Vu]

The speed and range complains will never end, there will always be someone want more than what's been offered.

If the max speed is 35mph, people will ask for few more mph "for safety buffering", like Gotway.
If the battery is 1800WH, people will ask for some more, like 2000WH or 2500WH, "for safety buffering", like Gotway.

 

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

What are these people waiting for to upgrade?

Well that’s easy: the V11 of course! 

The polls were very nice, and I think they do tell us a lot as is. But I wanted to point out that when reading into the stats, one has to consider a few aspects not entirely obvious at the first sight, in order not to get a wrong idea. The notion that people would be happy and satisfied with specs that meet their own answers just isn’t correct.

Quote

Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that the V11 and S18 meet and exceed most users' current habits

I agree.

Quote

Distance: If the V11 has a realistic range of let's say 90 km and we consider the that 90% of users don't exceed 60 km tours for leisure, that's still 30% more than what 90% of riders will need on an average trip.

Scrutiny time!  

1) How one measures range. When @Marty Backe measures range, he rides  at a steady pace basically until the wheel won’t budge. When doing so, a big chunk of the trip (that while being consistent, doesn’t reflect anyone’s real life riding in the first place) is limited in speed, and much bigger yet is limited in acceleration. A distance one can ride comfortably is maybe something like 2/3 of the maximum range. This brings a 90km range down to 60km of practical distance. Have a heavy gas foot? 40km. Weigh a bit more? 30km. Suddenly even a measured range is very far from the practical distance that one wants to ride on a daily basis. And the above example doesn’t even require an enthusiast to plummet 90km of “range“.

2) Tour vs charge-to-charge. I‘m sure that for most commuters and leisure riders the rides start and end at a place where a charger is located. Mine sometimes doesn’t though. I can ride up to 25km per side to a friend or a meet, hang out for a while, and only then start the actual tour. Back home the same way. At worst I might want to use a whopping 50km just for commuting to the actual tour. I’m ok with riding back home on fumes, but even still, even my now 1850Wh MSX doesn’t spare much range for the actual tour.

A rare example for sure, but just one where consuming a long range doesn’t require near Sebaman level stamina.

 

Quote

the V11's weight is a turnoff for a lot of users (no data on that), increasing range any further means venturing into 30 kg territory...

A crucial amount of the practical range is up to how the manufacturer decides to throttle the top speed, and how far it allows the cells to deflate. The V10(F) for example, I’m sure the top speed would serve much more users if it didn’t start to throttle already at 70% battery. And allowing to gently ride down to 3.0V per cell also gives a significant boost to the maximum range. A 70% throttle threshold and 0% at 3.3V would make for an exceptionally poor practical range, regardless of the maximum range. The 2000W 18XL approach (25% thr, 0% @ 3.0V) OTOH makes for one of the best real life ranges in the industry, from a 1554Wh wheel. I’d be perfectly happy with the latter, while I could be selling my V11 a month after receiving if they go with the 70% and  3.3V combo.

Quote

Speed: I'm not sure it's a fair comparison to compare EUC speeds to cars'...

My intention was not to compare the actual speeds, but the headroom between the speed being used and the maximum speed. I get your point in that an EUC must reserve a lot of headroom for safety, but the similarly spec’d 1600Wh 84V MSX (78km/h no-load) was able to reach waaaay past 50km/h two years ago. I practically never exceed 50km/h on mine, but if the V11 speed is inflated by 10% and greeted with a jerky, sudden and loud tilt-back, it wouldn’t cut it for me. That would lower the safe and comfortable real riding speed down to 43km/h. I’m pretty sure they won’t inflate 10%, but the point remains, nobody should ride at the maximum speed, however fast or slow it is.

 While I’m not at all the fastest of riders, I’m very aware that my habits and requirements are still those of a hard-core enthusiast. Even if all the worst case scenarios from above were to come true, the V11 would still probably satisfy “most” riders. But the decisions Inmotion makes within the already revealed specs either make it or break it for a huge chunk of users, me included. It also determines wether the phrase “for professionals” they used ends up being true or not.

@Unventor has been open about being in numerous talks with several Inmotion employees. If he passes along a message that “based on a forum poll most riders would be satisfied with...”, he would be wrong in reading the results that way, and if Inmotion ends up making decisions based on that, they will limit the V11 sales much more than they intend to. That is why I started dissecting the poll data in the first place.

 

Quote

 

Maybe manufacturers are actually spot on, making wheels that meet and exceed most users' needs

 

The more they base decisions on that, the more GW sells. Simple as that. Personally I wouldn’t mind Inmotion stealing a good chunk of those sales.

Edited May 16, 2020 by mrelwood

[mrelwood]

 

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

But I rather ride within the limits I am allowed and be allowed to ride, that get a total ban

Your choice of riding at 40 km/h when 25km/h is the max allowed, doesn't support the above statement.

 

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

I would rather get our wheels accepted in general and then it becomes easier to get allowance to go faster, just as it happened for e-bicycles. Going from assisted max 25kmh to fully self-propelled up to 45kmh.

Not quite. Fully self-propelled 45km/h e-bikes are mopeds, require a relevant licence and insurance, and therefore not allowed anywhere a moped isn't. For example on most bicycle lanes. E-bikes as bicycles still have the exact same limits they always did.

25km/h EUCs are currently allowed already in most countries. But if EUCs were classified as mopeds, we wouldn't be allowed on any recreational roads and pathways, forest paths etc. Currently we are only breaking the law because our wheels go faster than 25km/h, in the moped scenario we would be completely banned from the areas we mostly ride on at every group ride. That would be much much worse for all of us.

EUCs are orders of magnitude too small a segment to warrant for a new vehicle classification category. Getting legal at 45km/h just can't happen the way you think it would.

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

I just thing people are too focused on speed.

If the top speed was limited downwards from your regular riding speed, you would be too.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

2 hours ago, Unventor said:

In general I just thing people are too focused on speed. 

Maybe because there are people who see it as a piece of sports equipment and want to have fun and thrills with it. Sorry, but at 25 - 35km/h it would only be just a cool means of transport for me. Of course it is still fun, but I would not get a kick out of it.

I don't ride EUC to get cheap to work or shopping, or to get around somehow. 

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, buell47 said:

Maybe because there are people who see it as a piece of sports equipment and want to have fun and thrills with it. Sorry, but at 25 - 35km/h it would only be just a cool means of transport for me. Of course it is still fun, but I would not get a kick out of it.

I don't ride EUC to get cheap to work or shopping, or to get around somehow. 

Truth 

[Unventor]

14 hours ago, buell47 said:

Maybe because there are people who see it as a piece of sports equipment and want to have fun and thrills with it. Sorry, but at 25 - 35km/h it would only be just a cool means of transport for me. Of course it is still fun, but I would not get a kick out of it.

I don't ride EUC to get cheap to work or shopping, or to get around somehow. 

I ride my EUC because it is more convenient than taking my car. Price has nothing to do with it. In fact, in many occasions getting around at my speeds on an EUC is just as fast or faster than in my car. If you take your EUC to an area by your car then you might not need to use it on public road. But the area your ride might still be considered a public area. 

It has also proven to be exceptional well to keep my rheumatic pain and stiffness of my joints at bay (knees, hips, feet and back). As soon as I do not ride a week, I am back to be a frozen fish stick. But just riding 5-10km a day makes me back to a normal person again. So, I use this as a "medical" device. It is not about being cool. 

I doubt many forest trails are made for 60-70kmh rides unless it is on a road. Now in the EU the battle is still ongoing to get this accepted as proper and safe vehicle to be allowed in road traffic. Now this is just from the other day: 

https://translate.google.se/translate?hl=sv&tab=TT&sl=fr&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.anumme.fr%2F2020%2F05%2F02%2Fcompte-rendu-de-la-reunion-avec-la-commission-europeenne-du-24-04-2020%2F

This well be affected by people and their ride behaviours. 

If you drive Nascar it is a sport, but it is not meant for public road. I have no issue with people racing on a racetrack. But when they take their Nascar attitude to the public roads and disregard road traffic laws it is a quite different matter. A full out public ban in the EU would hit any brand. 

To put this in same context but in a much more extreme version. Guns, some think they are fun and cool. But in many countries there are laws on how you can handle these. Some think it is cool to have higher fire rate and higher calibre. Yes, they too are used in sports, but they are in many countries not allowed in public. And you normally need to hold a permit and have them registered. 

I am advocating EUC as a public transport. I see huge benefits in this. But to do this first step is to be road legal. Next step is to be able to take out an insurance. And that one incident it not reflected to the type of vehicle but down to the incident circumstance and the rider. 

I will argue to any day still that 50kmh is more than fast enough with the risks and designs we see right now. As there are limited redundant systems and how an EUC basic function is. I do think that the V11 is one of those steppingstones to get better safety when riding. 

 

And this is also why I don't buy GW. I am not suporting these high speed wheel design.

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Unventor

[Dave Wood]

2 hours ago, Unventor said:

I ride my EUC because it is more convenient than taking my car. Price has nothing to do with it. In fact, in many occasions getting around at my speeds on an EUC is just as fast or faster than in my car. If you take your EUC to an area by your car then you might not need to use it on public road. But the area your ride might still be considered a public area. 

It has also proven to be exceptional well to keep my rheumatic pain and stiffness of my joints at bay (knees, hips, feet and back). As soon as I do not ride a week, I am back to be a frozen fish stick. But just riding 5-10km a day makes me back to a normal person again. So, I use this as a "medical" device. It is not about being cool. 

I doubt many forest trails are made for 60-70kmh rides unless it is on a road. Now in the EU the battle is still ongoing to get this accepted as proper and safe vehicle to be allowed in road traffic. Now this is just from the other day: 

https://translate.google.se/translate?hl=sv&tab=TT&sl=fr&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.anumme.fr%2F2020%2F05%2F02%2Fcompte-rendu-de-la-reunion-avec-la-commission-europeenne-du-24-04-2020%2F

This well be affected by people and their ride behaviours. 

If you drive Nascar it is a sport, but it is not meant for public road. I have no issue with people racing on a racetrack. But when they take their Nascar attitude to the public roads and disregard road traffic laws it is a quite different matter. A full out public ban in the EU would hit any brand. 

To put this in same context but in a much more extreme version. Guns, some think they are fun and cool. But in many countries there are laws on how you can handle these. Some think it is cool to have higher fire rate and higher calibre. Yes, they too are used in sports, but they are in many countries not allowed in public. And you normally need to hold a permit and have them registered. 

I am advocating EUC as a public transport. I see huge benefits in this. But to do this first step is to be road legal. Next step is to be able to take out an insurance. And that one incident it not reflected to the type of vehicle but down to the incident circumstance and the rider. 

I will argue to any day still that 50kmh is more than fast enough with the risks and designs we see right now. As there are limited redundant systems and how an EUC basic function is. I do think that the V11 is one of those steppingstones to get better safety when riding. 

 

And this is also why I don't buy GW. I am not suporting these high speed wheel design.

 

I can testify to this living in the UK, the last thing we need is riders creating bad publicity riding like idiots when legislation is on a knife edge as it is...

[travsformation]

21 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The polls were very nice, and I think they do tell us a lot as is. But I wanted to point out that when reading into the stats, one has to consider a few aspects not entirely obvious at the first sight, in order not to get a wrong idea. The notion that people would be happy and satisfied with specs that meet their own answers just isn’t correct.

I completely agree 

21 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Scrutiny time!  

1) How one measures range. When @Marty Backe measures range, he rides  at a steady pace basically until the wheel won’t budge. When doing so, a big chunk of the trip (that while being consistent, doesn’t reflect anyone’s real life riding in the first place) is limited in speed, and much bigger yet is limited in acceleration. A distance one can ride comfortably is maybe something like 2/3 of the maximum range. This brings a 90km range down to 60km of practical distance. Have a heavy gas foot? 40km. Weigh a bit more? 30km. Suddenly even a measured range is very far from the practical distance that one wants to ride on a daily basis. And the above example doesn’t even require an enthusiast to plummet 90km of “range“.

2) Tour vs charge-to-charge. I‘m sure that for most commuters and leisure riders the rides start and end at a place where a charger is located. Mine sometimes doesn’t though. I can ride up to 25km per side to a friend or a meet, hang out for a while, and only then start the actual tour. Back home the same way. At worst I might want to use a whopping 50km just for commuting to the actual tour. I’m ok with riding back home on fumes, but even still, even my now 1850Wh MSX doesn’t spare much range for the actual tour.

A rare example for sure, but just one where consuming a long range doesn’t require near Sebaman level stamina.

Very good points. Just before checking your reply I read @Mike Sacristan's comments on FW 2.02 for the 16X, where he's experiencing decreased range, possibly because the pedals are stiffer. Comes to show how even the slightest change (wind, tire pressure, etc.) can affect range. The conclusion being expect 1/2 the announced range, demand double! 

About charge-to-charge riding, you're right that's probably the case for most users. If I were you, I'd probably top up at my friend's before setting off 

21 hours ago, mrelwood said:

A crucial amount of the practical range is up to how the manufacturer decides to throttle the top speed, and how far it allows the cells to deflate. The V10(F) for example, I’m sure the top speed would serve much more users if it didn’t start to throttle already at 70% battery. And allowing to gently ride down to 3.0V per cell also gives a significant boost to the maximum range. A 70% throttle threshold and 0% at 3.3V would make for an exceptionally poor practical range, regardless of the maximum range. The 2000W 18XL approach (25% thr, 0% @ 3.0V) OTOH makes for one of the best real life ranges in the industry, from a 1554Wh wheel. I’d be perfectly happy with the latter, while I could be selling my V11 a month after receiving if they go with the 70% and  3.3V combo.

I entirely agree, the 2000W 18XL's throttling approach is exceptional. You can get an idea of my priorities based on the wheels I own (excluding the V8). 

The 18XL is hard to beat in terms of range, but I'm also very pleased with my 16X's range, although it's much more susceptible to being halved by my... enthusiastic riding? 

I refrained from commenting on throttling because I personally don't like IM's approach at all and I'd rather stay clear of topics I have a strong opinion on... 

(also, I haven't been following this thread closely enough to know how the V11 throttles, so no knowledge, no opinion)

21 hours ago, mrelwood said:

if the V11 speed is inflated by 10% and greeted with a jerky, sudden and loud tilt-back, it wouldn’t cut it for me.

That was smooth! 

And benevolent: inflation has been known to be more than 10% on these hypothetical wheels of which you speak...

21 hours ago, mrelwood said:

@Unventor has been open about being in numerous talks with several Inmotion employees. If he passes along a message that “based on a forum poll most riders would be satisfied with...”, he would be wrong in reading the results that way, and if Inmotion ends up making decisions based on that, they will limit the V11 sales much more than they intend to. That is why I started dissecting the poll data in the first place.

Good point. I'm really not serving my own best interest am I? 

21 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The more they base decisions on that, the more GW sells. Simple as that. Personally I wouldn’t mind Inmotion stealing a good chunk of those sales.

Or KS. Or anyone...My current wish is for something with the aesthetics and suspension of the S18, the range (and pedals) of the 18XL, the torque of the MSP and the headlight and weatherproofing of the V11. Is it really that much to ask for? 

Edited May 17, 2020 by travsformation

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

2 minutes ago, travsformation said:

Or KS. Or anyone...My current wish is for something with the aesthetics and suspension of the S18, the range (and pedals) of the 18XL, the torque of the MSP and the headlight and weatherproofing of the V11. Is it really that much to ask for? 

...and the speed from the MSS. 

[travsformation]

10 minutes ago, buell47 said:

...and the speed from the MSS. 

[mike_bike_kite]

... and the weight of my 16S please.

[travsformation]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

... and the weight of my 16S please.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

2 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

... and the weight of my 16S please.

...and the price from a ninebot one A1

[.....]

3 hours ago, buell47 said:

...and the price from a ninebot one A1

And, can hold my beer to 'watch THIS'!

Edited May 17, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Unventor]

On 5/16/2020 at 6:31 PM, mrelwood said:

has been open about being in numerous talks with several Inmotion employees. If he passes along a message that “based on a forum poll most riders would be satisfied with...”, he would be wrong in reading the results that way, and if Inmotion ends up making decisions based on that, they will limit the V11 sales much more than they intend to. That is why I started dissecting the poll data in the first place.

I have stated different things to IM. Some as I see this as a frequent request. So as this in my view. 

Example of frequent request: more battery capacity. Build in sound (added I don't see it as a huge issue) build in light (another added I don't see it as huge issue). Suggestions of tire choices (bought in the tire guru @mrelwood)

Personally wish: better weatherproofing , easy maintenance screws that don't damage wheel the each times you open it. I don't see a need for faster than 50kmh. I hope they don't do what KS did to KS16X.

I have been linking to forum posts too. Made a list of possible after-sales improvement/suggestions. 

This has been going of for some time [months) now. I don't hold an illusion I can shape the V11. But I have tried to make easy to add suggestions in hope we get a product that we will love and become a new hard not to own wheel. I could see this as a new modern KS18XL wheel with added comfort and safety. I don't see the S18 going to achieve that. 

As it stands right now the V11 looks to me to be a commuters dream. I don't see it as hard core extreme riders would buy it. And due to this I see still little need to raise speed. 

I have given feedback and communicate on different platforms as I didn't want to end up in a S18-like shitstotm thread. 

In the end the profit for a brand is to sell many unit of a model. Making something for super extreme riders are hardly a huge profit market especially when we saw the reaction to initial price. 

I can only say IM have listen a lot. I have huge expectations for this to become an exceptional wheel. Not in terms of range or top speed but more as the goto daily wheel. And this is why I buy a wheel. Unfortunately my choices in KS has not been the best due to 1st batch issues. I hope the quietness from IM is due to making sure there are now 1st batch mistakes.

Last I heard is though they are on track to make promised launch date to customers. (This was about 2 weeks ago now). It should also mean reviewers should start to recieve sample wheels any time now. 

[AtlasP]

On 5/16/2020 at 6:01 AM, travsformation said:

Also, the V11's weight is a turnoff for a lot of users

The V11 is about the same weight as several of the Nikola+ SKUs. (My Nik+ is within 2 pounds of the advertised V11 weight.) Now yes the Nik+ is heavy, but that hasn't seemed to put a damper on the amount of positive coverage/endorsement it continues to get, especially from several of the top youtubers (including Marty and Mickey). So either someone believes that both the Nik+ and the V11 are too heavy (which is a fair decision based on your context), or else neither of them are, but people should remember the V11 is not some new weight category (which some people keep making it out to be).

 

On 5/16/2020 at 10:31 AM, mrelwood said:

The more they base decisions on that, the more GW sells.

Considering that just one of InMotion's mid-range products outsells all GW wheels combined, I don't think they're too worried. (If anything, *if* the V11 steals just 5-10% of sales which would have otherwise gone to for example S18's or Nik+'s [a segment where IM previously didn't have *any* offerings], it is Gotway and King Song that have way more to be worried about in terms of market direction/potential market shift, with IM just starting to encroach where previously KS & GW had free range.)

Edited May 20, 2020 by AtlasP