INMOTION V11 (2020)

[Mike Sacristan]

3 minutes ago, Tom Tom said:

btw. Regarding to the video. At the moment "normal" users aren't able to ride down 4 stairs, right? They are showing it's nothing for V11. This alone is kinda game changer.

The stairs shown look to me like what it would be like to go down 4 curbs or platforms in succession.
Usually when going down stairs there is not enough room on the step below for the EUC so one ends up riding on the stair edge.

I also doubt they are normal riders judging by their technique. Going up and down curbs was a big thing for me back in the day.
Going down stairs still is a big thing for me. Usually we as riders are the biggest obstacle but I am sure that the V11 will reduce the requirements placed on us.

[Unventor]

Well @Mike Sacristan I have a pre-ordered V11 incomming to me. The only issue is that I know there is about 1k+ units in order before mine. But last info I got the other day is they are on track and my unit should ship late in July. So I guess you and Monica have to come to the west coast at some point. Then you can get a feel of suspension yourself. With luck I might get the V11 in my booked vacation (3 first full weeks of August).

Edited May 1, 2020 by Unventor

[Mike Sacristan]

2 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Well @Mike Sacristan I have a pre-ordered V11 incomming to me. The only issue is that I know there is about 1k+ unite in order before mine. But last info I got the other day is they are on track and my unit should ship late in July. So I guess you and Monica have to come to the west coast at some point. Then you can get a feel of suspension yourself. With luck I might get the V11 in my booked vacation (3 first full weeks of August).

Cool! I saw that you ordered in an earlier post. Hope the delivery will be trouble free and no delays this time!

[Unventor]

15 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Cool! I saw that you ordered in an earlier post. Hope the delivery will be trouble free and no delays this time!

Direct delivery by air...

[travsformation]

Based on the (very preliminary, not enough votes to be representative) data from the polls @SamSuffit and myself created (1. How do you use your EUC?, 2) Off-roading habits 3) Speed and protective equipment), KS and IM’s recent releases are pretty much in accordance user’s riding habits, and speed, range and off-road capabilities aren’t as important to most users as they may seem...

85% of users live in the city or suburbs. Most users use their wheel for everything, from commuting to running errands and leisure, with only 30% who don’t use it for leisure and 18% for leisure only.

Distance-wise, daily commutes are mostly up to 10 km (43%), with 30% being up to 30 km—more than that is rare. For leisure, most riders (55%) don’t do tours longer than 30 km, with rides from 30-60 km in length being the average for 35% of users. That means 90% of users don't go on tours longer than 60 km.

Off-roading is uncommon for commutes (for 86% of users it involves maximum a short stretch of unpaved road), while for leisure riding, it makes up a maximum of 25% of most users’ riding. For 45% of riders, leaving the asphalt/tarmac involves easy-going scenic routes. 68% of all riders who answered the poll aren’t interested in off-roading for the sake of off-roading (9% don’t leave the asphalt, 23% prefer flat, compacted and well-maintained scenic routes and 36% don’t mind a few ruts and bumps, but nothing too challenging, off-roading isn’t their main priority)

Off-roading enthusiasts only make up about 1/3 of all riders, and of those riders, 68% don’t tend to go on tours longer than 15 km. Riders who do 30 km or more account for about 32% (27% do 30-60 km, and only 4.5% more than 60).

In terms of riding speeds, only 16% of riders cruise at 50 km/h or more, with the most common cruising speed being 35 km/h (42%). Only 18% of users ever surpass 50 km/h, the most common max. speed is 50 km/h (37%), followed by 45 km/h (29%).

Now look at the specs of the S18 and V11. According the the info in the polls, most riders should be more than happy with these wheels. Don't agree? Don't feel your riding habits are represented? Take the polls! 

[DjPanJan]

@travsformation

If you could ride would you? That's how you ask yourself a question.
If you ask me how many km I drive on the V10F, I will answer 30 km, but because it is impossible, I will not drive 50 km or 70 km. That doesn't mean I don't want to go more.
If you ask me if I drive offroad I will answer a little when I do not have an EUC that can handle offroad easily and without the risk of damage. If I could I would drive more off-road without consequences.
There is no point in asking how you drive and adjust the product parameters accordingly.

According to what you listed from the tech polls, no one really wants or is interested in something like KS16X. The opposite is true, it is one of the best-selling machines.

The V11 will be either a colossal success or a crash.
Boosted (company) went bankrupt because it was decided according to tables and surveys that they made a product that is enough for "most".

Bad luck and mistake because people ended up buying electric scooters and skateboards with better parameters and a lower price. (It's an interesting case, I recommend getting to know it) Gotway Inmotion and kingsong can have the same fate if they make one big bad decision.

[Unventor]

Now I think your post @travsformation reflect very well why the specs of both S18 and V11 are as they are. 

In short you like a wide target group and you will never make a wheel that suits every rider. This is down to an extreme range wheel will need big battery and cost both money and take up space and adds weight. This will cut off some users from buying the wheel. 

I also think you see that KS chose to keep weight down more than Inmotion did. And even if it is still early stage it seems S18 looks is more important (yes not only reason, but what most mention first off) than the less range you get. And this is also what the poll seem to reflect.

That said this forum do not have all riders and not all has answered it so it could be argued that poll data show who is interested in the wheels. So those users that these wheels hold little interest is not reflected in poll data. 

I just don't this think so. So you can be right @DjPanJan but I think there are data from KS and IM market survey and reported from dealers that made the company make their design choices they did. 

Also if you look at the video of the thoughts of Chooch he has a good point if ride to the trail and at the trail and then back this is one use. But bringing you wheel to the trail and ride is a different use and how people did not only a few years back. You see this happen a lot in @Marty Backe videos. Him packing up his car.

I am still looking forward to get my V11.  So on this reguard I am happy with the specs so far. On paper it is 99% as close to the wheel I have asked for. How it rides is not shown on paper specs...

I only wished it had a higher weather/water rating. This is one thing my KS16X is borderline rubbish at. And it is one thing KS said they didn't focus on at all. 

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, DjPanJan said:

According to what you listed from the tech polls, no one really wants or is interested in something like KS16X. The opposite is true, it is one of the best-selling machines.

I guess if we all bought the cars we need then we'd all be driving small economical hatchbacks.

My KS16S suits my needs perfectly (range, speed, weight, it's ability to just look like luggage when I trolley it into a store) but the 16X is such a great looking machine that offers just that bit more. I keep looking at it as a potential next wheel but I'm put off a little by the waterproofing issues and the potential risk of cut outs for heavier riders like me. Still, I just love the "batman" look of the thing 

[Unventor]

3 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I guess if we all bought the cars we need then we'd all be driving small economical hatchbacks.

My KS16S suits my needs perfectly (range, speed, weight, it's ability to just look like luggage when I trolley it into a store) but the 16X is such a great looking machine that offers just that bit more. I keep looking at it as a potential next wheel but I'm put off a little by the waterproofing issues and the potential risk of cut outs for heavier riders like me. Still, I just love the "batman" look of the thing 

As a owner of 1st batch KS16X and having water damage once and just had to ship my wheel off for service again I can only say I understand 100% your argument. 

Now the cut off is something that comes down to riding the wheel and can be managed. It isn't an issue from 0 to 20kmh but you can be as aggressive from 30-40 kmh and question is how fast you want to push it the heavier you are. 

Now I rarely got past 35 kmh for the same reason @Scottie mention on his reflecting thread of his learning and ride habits as he evolves as rider. 

This might change a little with V11 for my part as pot holes an bumps isn't as high a risk due to suspension and bigger rim with the wide tire. I am still confident that most will be surprised by what Inmotion have been building and hidden still in the V11. I know we have not much public content to back up this. But the key here is public content. Not everything is posted here or is public available. 

The very constructive dialog I have had with Inmotion just gives me a gut feeling. Yes I can be wrong. But I think that despite it isn't a race wheel the V11 it will make the KS16X so much less attractive as an overall choice. The battery is so close in size that it is marginal. Same goes for weight. Size is bigger but that can be both a good or bad thing. As for ride comfort I don't think we need to debate that a lot. Price wise the gab isn't huge. 

Not bt speakers and side light but does it really matter as you can bring separate BT speakers with you and on a trail who needs side lights. 

As on side lights as an argument for night visibility I think you will see why it doesn't matter at all. It really doesn't.  It comes down to the headlight and tail light. You will see this in reviews I am very sure.

I just hope that @Liamfind will start showcasing the V11 a bit more soon so we can talk a bit more about the V11 and not just speculate.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Unventor

[travsformation]

2 hours ago, DjPanJan said:

@travsformation

If you could ride would you? That's how you ask yourself a question.
If you ask me how many km I drive on the V10F, I will answer 30 km, but because it is impossible, I will not drive 50 km or 70 km. That doesn't mean I don't want to go more.
If you ask me if I drive offroad I will answer a little when I do not have an EUC that can handle offroad easily and without the risk of damage. If I could I would drive more off-road without consequences.
There is no point in asking how you drive and adjust the product parameters accordingly.

According to what you listed from the tech polls, no one really wants or is interested in something like KS16X. The opposite is true, it is one of the best-selling machines.

The V11 will be either a colossal success or a crash.
Boosted (company) went bankrupt because it was decided according to tables and surveys that they made a product that is enough for "most".

Bad luck and mistake because people ended up buying electric scooters and skateboards with better parameters and a lower price. (It's an interesting case, I recommend getting to know it) Gotway Inmotion and kingsong can have the same fate if they make one big bad decision.

I'm not saying that manufacturers should design wheels according to surveys, I'm saying that in this case, they seem to match and this wheel should meet most users' average needs (the range is good enough for 90% of users, speed is good enough for 84%, etc.). But I stress average needs because one might usually go on 15 km but want to do a 70 km tour from time to time. I'm in the group of 75% or more of my leisure riding is off-roading, my average tours are 30-60 km (but I plan on starting to do much longer tours) and m speed...50 km/h is more than enough for off-roading   

I was merely interested in comparing (limited) rider habits (the poll data isn't enough to be representative, it's just a gross representation of some users) with the specs of the wheel to see how they matched up, and understand that since the company that has invested a great deal of money in developing a new product such as this, is makes sense to cater to the needs of the majority, not the few. From a business standpoint it makes sense, and it doesn't look like most users will find themselves too limited by the specs.

Don't read into my comment too much, it was more out of curiosity than anything else 

 

 

[SamSuffit]

9 minutes ago, travsformation said:

 this wheel should meet most users' average needs (the range is good enough for 90% of users, speed is good enough for 84%, etc.). But I stress average needs because one might usually go on 15 km but want to do a 70 km tour from time to time. I'm in the group of 75% or more of my leisure riding is off-roading, my average tours are 30-60 km (but I plan on starting to do much longer tours) and m speed...50 km/h is more than enough for off-roading  

Yes, just to add to the poll results: the V11 and S18 seems indeed to be enough for the average use.

However the polls gives an estimation of an average of current usage, and users might want indeed to go on a long trip from time to time. Furthermore all users can be currently limited by the wheel they have. You cannot do a 80km ride with a V5F. Plus some additional smoothness and safety with suspension could change the usage of the wheels: we might be able to endure longer trip or more off road. Same for batteries: once new battery technologies allows longer ride and lighter wheels, the answers in the polls might change.

[AtlasP]

5 hours ago, DjPanJan said:

Boosted (company) went bankrupt because it was decided according to tables and surveys that they made a product that is enough for "most".

This is invented/revisionist nonsense. Yes that scenario has been true about some companies in the past, but it has absolutely no relation to what happened with Boosted. Boosted went bankrupt for two primary reasons, neither of which were centered around their product specifications:

1. Failure to remain price competitive in their primary market compared to cheaper alternatives which were increasingly approaching Boosted's quality/specs for a fraction of the price.
   • (If they were planning based on surveys the price issue would have been at the top of the list of consumer feedback--if anything, planning based on surveys might have saved them.)
2. A lot of resources wasted on a failed entry into a new market (scooters).

Ultimately the vast majority of esk8 consumers were happy with Boosted's product specs, they just wanted to pay less for it (which they could do buying a competitor's brand instead).

Edited May 15, 2020 by AtlasP

[AtlasP]

2 hours ago, Unventor said:

I am still looking forward to get my V11.  ... I only wished it had a higher weather/water rating.

 

 

I don't understand this at all. The V11 is IP55 and InMotion's IP rating is industry-leading compared to any other EUC manufacturer. (Certainly for anyone primarily concerned with IP rating, the V11 would be a much better choice than the S18.) Unless you were just lamenting the IP-rating status of the entire EUC industry/wish it were even higher?

Edited May 15, 2020 by AtlasP

[fbhb]

2 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

Unless you were just lamenting the IP-rating status of the entire EUC industry/wish it were even higher?

100% sure @Unventor is commenting that he wishes the IP55 rating was higher, due to him commuting in all weathers!  He is definitely getting the V11 despite the rating and has a pre-order placed.

[Unventor]

On 5/15/2020 at 11:59 PM, fbhb said:

100% sure @Unventor is commenting that he wishes the IP55 rating was higher, due to him commuting in all weathers!  He is definitely getting the V11 despite the rating and has a pre-order placed.

You are spot on.

I wish the rating was higher/better. But since it is still one of the best options on.paper (have to prove itself in real life conditions) I decided to pre-order the V11. But weather/water/dust proofing it one if the specs I hope is being taken more serious. 

We shall see if people think different about this once they have to maintain and clean the open design of S18. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Unventor

[.....]

23 minutes ago, Unventor said:

You are spot on.

I wish the rathi g was higher/better. But since it is still one of the best options on.paper (have to prove itself in real life conditions) I decided to pre-order the V11. But weather/water/dust proofing it one if the specs I hope is being taken more serious. 

We shall see if people think different about this once they have to maintain and clean the open design of S18. 

I think you are right on this one. Most people don't enjoy having to clean and inspect their equipment. A vast minority of us are old gearheads and somehow LIKE that we are forced to inspect and maintain things all the time.  Some people dont want to open their wheels when they get them, others HAVE to. Im just so glad theres two fairly different choices here, BOTH bringing new tech to the table. Batteries are what they are, lucky us, the euc manufacturers are being forced to look at OTHER qualities. I do know there will be HELL TO PAY and it won't go away very quickly, if either wheel has a fatal design flaw. With 2 different approaches, we get the benefit of comparing them and at the same time, new. Consumers will win, as the characteristics will be heard, LONG before most of us wind up buying BOTH ourselves. Hooray!

Edited May 15, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[travsformation]

2 hours ago, SamSuffit said:

However the polls gives an estimation of an average of current usage, and users might want indeed to go on a long trip from time to time. Furthermore all users can be currently limited by the wheel they have. You cannot do a 80km ride with a V5F. Plus some additional smoothness and safety with suspension could change the usage of the wheels: we might be able to endure longer trip or more off road. Same for batteries: once new battery technologies allows longer ride and lighter wheels, the answers in the polls might change.

I agree 

[mrelwood]

12 hours ago, travsformation said:

Based on the (very preliminary, not enough votes to be representative) data from the polls @SamSuffit and myself created

Thank you for gathering up the poll data! However, as has been pointed out with great points from @DjPanJan and others, we must consider what the data actually presents. It’s not at all what we prefer or are happy with, and especially not what our next purchase should limit us to. This is a very young market, and the vast majority of buyers are planning to buy a faster wheel with a longer range and often with better off-roading capabilities than what they currently have.

I especially disagree on how you translate the results on speed and range. If you ask car drivers about their average or even maximum trip length, I’m absolutely certain that none of them would buy a new car with a gas tank that just barely allows their current trips. Same with the top speed. I practically never drive faster than 110km/h, yet I would never buy a car with a top speed of 110km/h. Especially if the top speed starts to get lower when the tank is 70% or even 50% full.

 To ride a 30km trip with a maximum speed of 50km/h without restrictions, you need a usable range of at least 60km and a top speed of at least 55km/h. And unless you want or even have the ability to charge the wheel for many hours between each trip, you’d need even more range.

When we buy a wheel, we also try to choose one that fits our needs two or even more years from now. If we’d have the same poll taken two years ago, which is probably about the time when IM started designing the V11, the average range and speed would’ve been much lower. There weren’t even any 3” wheels available, which we now know rule when we go off-roading.

GW isn’t successful because they match most people’s needs. It’s even the opposite in some sense. They make uncomfortable and unpractical wheels that are technologically a few years behind of KS and IM. And they sell great because of two aspects that are clearly the most important to GW customers: speed and range.

The V8 is probably still the most sold EUC to date. Does it mean that most riders would be happy or satisfied with it? Absolutely not! It’s a beginner wheel that many riders would like to upgrade from in a few months or sooner.
 

Quote

Only 18% of users ever surpass 50 km/h, the most common max. speed is 50 km/h (37%), followed by 45 km/h (29%).

That data makes 50km/h an insufficient safe top speed for 55% of riders right now! In a year that number is even higher. I plan on using the V11 as my main wheel for at least two years. How large will the percentage be then?

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

That data makes 50km/h an insufficient safe top speed for 55% of riders right now! In a year that number is even higher. I plan on using the V11 as my main wheel for at least two years. How large will the percentage be then?

I my case it will not change as I don't ride faster than 40kmh anymore mostly around 30-35kmh since I live in outskirth of the city and we have open cycle lans to ride on. And traffic laws do not allow me to go this fast anyway. 

And if people are complaning about range going around 30kmh seems to be the sweet sport for range vs time too. And you have no issues with throttling either.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Unventor

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

I my case it will not change as I don't ride faster than 40kmh anymore mostly around 30-35kmh since I live in outskirth of the city and we have open cycle lans to ride on. And traffic laws do not allow me to go this fast anyway

Of course, if everything is perfect in your case, we have clarified this and similar issues and can finally close this chapter.

You don't need faster or more range and it is not allowed to ride faster anyway, so even in the middle of the wilderness between owls and bears you would definitely not ride faster than the law allows, even if there is a bear chasing you. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by buell47

[Seba]

34 minutes ago, buell47 said:

You don't need faster or more range and it is not allowed to ride faster anyway, so even in the middle of the wilderness between owls and bears you would definitely not ride faster than the law allows, even if there is a bear chasing you. 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

I my case

..., you belong to the minority. Individual preferences aside, we are aware that 45% of the poll participants are currently not riding faster than 50km/h. Some of those wouldn’t even do so if they could. We don’t know how many though. And that was the point, the data doesn’t tell us which top speed people in general would be happy with.

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

And if people are complaning about range going around 30kmh seems to be the sweet sport for range vs time too. And you have no issues with throttling either.

20km/h would be even much better.

[Seba]

According to EUC World data:

1) for all tours recorded, a typical maximum speed is 32 km/h (32.8 km/h median, 31.8 km/h average). Typical average riding speed is about 17 km/h (17.3 km/h median, 17 km/h average). Average riding speed doesn't include any stops or breaks. Data based on almost 55,000 tours, over a total distance of over 500,000 kilometres.

2) for tours at least 5 km long, a typical maximum speed is 40 km/h (38.9 km/h median, 40.9 km/h average). Typical average riding speed is about 20 km/h (20 km/h median, 20.5 km/h average). Again - average riding speed doesn't include any stops or breaks. Data based on almost 27,000 tours, over a total distance of over 456,000 kilometres.

3) for tours at least 50 km long, a typical maximum speed is 45-50 km/h (43.2 km/h median, 54.2 km/h average). Typical average riding speed is about 22 km/h (20.7 km/h median, 23 km/h average). Again - average riding speed doesn't include any stops or breaks. Data based on over 900 tours, over a total distance of over 67,000 kilometres.

As we can see, riders mostly ride with average speed of only about 20 km/h (about 13 mph) and this is quite constant value, regardless of riding distance.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Seba

[.....]

I was forced to answer 31mph as I dont own a wheel that CAN go faster. I dont always ride at tiltback, but having the headroom would be nice. Im also only 380 miles into my 'euc career', so I can definitely see that faster is not improbable. Depends on my mood. Sometimes my mten is fast enough and sometimes my 18L isn't. I can only surmise that as I get more comfortable, the limitations Ive set on myself will be less. I still recall claiming that 20mph was more than fast enough. I was corrected by the forum groups and it was only a few miles before I realized they were right. I think for us to use that survey for statistics, It would need be better laid out and perhaps a little more in depth?

wow @Seba i am quite surprised at how low the speeds are. You definitely have the data to check and verify it. 11mph average? 20mph max? WTF, why not just jog? Thanks for the info!

Edited May 16, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Seba]

10 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

wow @Seba i am quite surprised at how low the speeds are. You definitely have the data to check and verify it. 11mph average? WTF, why not just jog? Thanks for the info!

I've edited my post to add more data, as conclusion is quite interesting - regardless of ride distance, average riding speed is only about 20 km/h (13 mph).