INMOTION V11 (2020)

[Kuji Rolls]

52 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I wished @Kuji Rolls would have posted a brief comment here, since I am not active on Facebook (due to my work). But I guess it doesn't hold as much interest as most follow Kuji anyway.

Thanks for sharing @mrelwoodand @UniVehje

yeah, sorry. I lurk around here from time to time, but in general im much more active on reddit and fb. 

I just received the v11 last night, immediately posted the pic on instagram and then went out for a quick ride before going to bed. This morning took the close up beauty shots so now im ready to start pushing her a little harder. My initial impressions (subject to change) are: The suspension is not as responsive or as smooth as the s18, but still solid. No wiggle and the handling is easy and tight. Motor control feels smooth and reliable (but i havent really pushed it). Both are significantly smoother to ride on bumpy streets than any wheel without suspension. 

Todays mission: find a way to put some padding on this wheel so i can push her harder. They didnt make this easy for me. 

[onizukagto]

3 hours ago, Unventor said:

I wished @Kuji Rolls would have posted a brief comment here, since I am not active on Facebook (due to my work). But I guess it doesn't hold as much interest as most follow Kuji anyway.

Thanks for sharing @mrelwoodand @UniVehje

Facebook work ban eh? Well Here you go! The V11 "beauty shot" by kujiroll from Facebook. 

[onizukagto]

3 hours ago, Kuji Rolls said:

Todays mission: find a way to put some padding on this wheel so i can push her harder. They didnt make this easy for me. 

Will be interesting to see how you would apply padding to these units!

Granted I think padding on the S18 It'll be easier because the whole case and peddles are moving as one.

But on the V11, isn't it just the peddles? Excited to find out!

Edited May 19, 2020 by onizukagto

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, onizukagto said:

Facebook work ban eh? Well Here you go! The V11 "beauty shot" by kujiroll from Facebook. 

I will share a story (real events) so you understand.

In general I am not active on social media but this is one place and I post an occasional YouTube video. 

15 years ago I worked in the UK in a call centre doing it support. The week before I started in the call centre they had an incident where a supporter/call agent ended in a dispute with a customer. 

Long story short that same customer tracked the call agent through Facebook and took his car for a 3 hour drive to the call centre site, with a sawed-off shotgun. Only by chance a quality call check listen to the last 1min of the call and they alerted the police. The customer was stopped on the M1 or M5 highway (I forgot that detail but incident still stick with me) about 1 hours drive from our call centre site. I have listen to that very call during my training as a call agent. 

For this were reason I am inactive on Facebook. I still work in IT support and sometimes you get across people that do not under the professional distance you need to have. 

Mostly these are happy people. Like last week a customer wanted to buy me coffee next time he visit the town I work.

But we have seen one or two here in forum that didn't get this. They are not welcome here and got banned. 

Now thanks for sharing the picture. It looks it has been put to work that V11. 

[WaveCut]

Russian trace of V11 revealed

[B08AH]

13 hours ago, Phong Vu said:

However, the different unstrung weight between V11 vs S18 is not that dramatic,  10 kg compare to rider weight which gonna be 80kg - 100kg.

Approximately (80+11)/11 vs (80+2)/25  translates to 2.5 times the difference.

 

[mrelwood]

 

5 hours ago, Kuji Rolls said:

The suspension is not as responsive or as smooth as the s18

Hopefully you’ll find time to try a few different air pressures on the suspension, since it could be possible that they aren’t currently ideal for your weight.

I’m sure you have already dialed in the tire pressure to be comparable as well.

 Can’t wait to hear and see more of your tests!

5 hours ago, Kuji Rolls said:

Todays mission: find a way to put some padding on this wheel so i can push her harder. They didnt make this easy for me. 

I was wondering about the same thing. I might even end up making a rigid platform for the pads, and bolt it through the vertical strip above the pedals.

[mike_bike_kite]

3 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Hopefully you’ll find time to try a few different air pressures on the suspension, since it could be possible that they aren’t currently ideal for your weight.

I’m sure you have already dialed in the tire pressure to be comparable as well.

It's simply down to the ration between sprung and unsprung weight as mentioned before and it makes a huge difference on nearly all vehicles. The V11 weighs 27Kg of which say 3 kg is suspended, The S18 weighs 22Kg of which 11Kg is suspended. If Kuji weighs 70Kg then the sprung to unsprung ratios for both wheels would be:

• V11 ( 70 + 3 ) / 24 = 3.04
• S18 ( 70 + 11 ) / 11 = 7.36

That explains Kuji's feeling that "the suspension is not as responsive or as smooth as the s18". That doesn't mean that the S18 is a better wheel but it is likely to have better suspension.

[UniVehje]

58 minutes ago, B08AH said:

Approximately (80+11)/11 vs (80+2)/25  translates to 2.5 times the difference.

 

You are calculating too little weight for the S18 motor+tire. Probably closer to 15 kg. 

[DjPanJan]

I want see result from decibel meter witch suspension is more silent in operation. Im realy curious about that.

If EUC market switch to suspensions models mainterrance time hudge increase.

I hope both manufacturers make more stronger supplier avaiability spare parts with good "cheap" prices.(and in stock permanently)

Something like you send broke part and obtain new one for great/better price.

Because now if i crash my 16x i put it back on tire if ballance uff ok work. Suspension EUC crash you put back to tire balance uff ok left suspension pedal is ok ... uff right is ok too uff. Nothing in moving part is not bend no.... uff suspension troley not bend uff ok.

 And for me like 120Kg rider this suspension be cry i am not naive.(both s18 v11)

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by DjPanJan
added about spare parts and mainterrance

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

It's simply down to the ration between sprung and unsprung weight as mentioned before and it makes a huge difference on nearly all vehicles.

You might want to read @UniVehje’s Wikipedia quotes a few posts above more carefully.

2 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

That explains Kuji's feeling that "the suspension is not as responsive or as smooth as the s18".

May I ask where do you base the claim that more unsprung weight would equal a less responsive suspension feeling to the rider? Especially in the case of an EUC?

I recently changed the tires on my car to a different size, and the tires themselves are noticeably heavier. Nothing else in the car was changed. As a result, the ride is much more comfortable in bumps than it was with the lighter tires. Why is that?

[someguy152]

has there been a discussion on which type of suspension is more likely to be maintenance free...i mean obviously it partly depends on the quality of the actual components being used (which we don't have yet to test), but is there a theoretical comparison or actual comparison on some other forms of transport like bikes.

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

May I ask where do you base the claim that more unsprung weight would equal a less responsive suspension feeling to the rider? Especially in the case of an EUC?

I recently changed the tires on my car to a different size, and the tires themselves are noticeably heavier. Nothing else in the car was changed. As a result, the ride is much more comfortable in bumps than it was with the lighter tires. Why is that?

A few of us have tried to explain sprung vs unsprung weights ... and failed. My suspicion is we will continue to fail. Kuji's even given his (brief) experience of riding both wheels and his feedback confirms what we're saying should happen. Maybe we're all wrong?

I have no idea about your car. If the new tyres are substantially different to the old tyres then perhaps the old tyres were simply not correct for the car? if it's a difference between winter and summer tyres then I'd imagine there would be a difference due to the compound used. 

 

4 hours ago, DjPanJan said:

If EUC market switch to suspensions models mainterrance time hudge increase.

Currently maintenance time on an EUC is almost nothing. With most suspension you just set it for your weight and that's about it. I've only once had to do work on suspension in 35 years of maintaining my cars and motorbikes - it took me about 30 minutes to swap out the rear suspension on a very heavily used and abused motorbike. It may be different for air suspension.

[.....]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I recently changed the tires on my car to a different size, and the tires themselves are noticeably heavier. Nothing else in the car was changed. As a result, the ride is much more comfortable in bumps than it was with the lighter tires. Why is that?

tire compounds, SIZE, tread design, profile, runout, balance, ply construction, age...  MANY things change ride quality (least of which is probably the minimal difference in tire weight on a 1-2 ton passenger car). Larger tires typically result in a smoother ride. If the tires are larger but the rim isnt, its obviously more sidewall or tread. New tires typically have more tread. Your result is from many factors. Did they re-balance the new tires? When was the last time the old ones were balanced? How was the wheel alignment verified before and after (to mitigate this detail as well)? Was ride height of vehicle effected? Is load rating the same? Speed rating? How do you negate differences (or similarities) in tire pressure when volume is different, along with design parameters influenced by certain pressures?  Nothing else was changed, but the very things that make a huge difference. I find Kuji's opinion interesting. I also find no need to overly think it, as its an opinion based on numerous factors and some are subjective to each rider. Personally, I like what I've heard.

Edited May 19, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Unventor]

I really don't think it comes down to V11 vs S18 which win the suspension part. 

It is likely to feel different and both are likely to have their pro vs cons. 

A first brief test is not likely to give the full picture or answer. In 6 months to a year we will more people using these in practical situations and playing with setting will improve this. 

Then you need to add in maintenance need. 

I would be a bit worried if Kuji said the system didn't work at all. Also comparing a setting on S18 might not work as well on V11 and visa versa.

I am still looking forward for my V11.

So my interaction with Inmotions:

About kuji/jump pads it is one of the things I have raised to Inmotion but I have now head how they were solving this. But about 4-6 weeks back they share a thought of adding accessories In form of BT speaker/side light "mods"/jump pads and that was when they shared the picture of the upcoming smartwatch (still in the works and not ready to showcase yet).

[AtlasP]

It's interesting seeing Kuji say that the V11 has decent torque--didn't he keep saying something about the S18 not being a high performance wheel (not sure how much that has to do with speed vs torque)? Would be interesting if the end result is that the S18 has slightly better suspension but the V11 has somewhat better torque..

Quote

Both are significantly smoother to ride on bumpy streets than any wheel without suspension. 

This is awesome. With this line alone the V11 becomes a contender for top 84v wheel on the market--not saying that's true (yet), but 'a contender'. (Suspension + close enough to 1600Wh.)

[AtlasP]

On 5/18/2020 at 5:47 AM, travsformation said:

Good point. I probably should have said that "more weight would be a turn-off for the V11's target group". I don't think the V11 is targeted at the same group as the Nikola+... 

I don't know about that. I know a lot of otherwise-satisfied InMotion customers who eventually got a Nikola+ just because they outgrew the speed of InMotion's offerings (at the time), but if they could've gotten an InMotion wheel with a 31 mph speed limit they would have very likely considered it. And considering how much InMotion outsells the competition, if they can retain more of those customers who want a bit faster wheels it could make a notable difference in the market.

Edited May 19, 2020 by AtlasP

[mike_bike_kite]

53 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

It's interesting seeing Kuji say that the V11 has decent torque

I was quite interested by their new motor design and perhaps extra torque is their main aim. I'm fairly new to EUC's but is this the first time a company has produced their own motor for their own EUC? Does anyone know what benefits the new motor has over the standard motors that these companies use?

[UniVehje]

3 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

A few of us have tried to explain sprung vs unsprung weights ... and failed. My suspicion is we will continue to fail. Kuji's even given his (brief) experience of riding both wheels and his feedback confirms what we're saying should happen. Maybe we're all wrong?

We are probably all wrong. There’s only a handful of people that have ever tested any kind of one wheeled device with suspension. We are going to have to learn it all and it’s a journey. Nobody has even defined what the goal is and what defines “better”. 
I know what sprung vs unsprung mass means in vehicles but I’m not convinced it will be a very big deal in unicycles. I’ve never seen this issue brought up in other vehicles when the goal was to have more comfort. Only when the goal was to have more grip when cornering. Of course there’s some effect but for me the bigger deal would be e.g. being able to quickly adjust the settings on the S18. 
 

In any case, both will be much better than anything we had before.  

[UniVehje]

41 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I was quite interested by their new motor design and perhaps extra torque is their main aim. I'm fairly new to EUC's but is this the first time a company has produced their own motor for their own EUC? Does anyone know what benefits the new motor has over the standard motors that these companies use?

Me too. Really fascinating stuff. I’ve been trying to ask the guys from Inmotion to talk more about their new in-house motor but so far they’ve been quiet. It looks like it’s physically bigger and has wide magnets. Probably geared towards torque. Impossible yet to know the real reason for investing into own design when very good motors are already available to use. Hopefully something good for us!

@Liamfind would you care to share more on that new motor?

[Unventor]

10 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Me too. Really fascinating stuff. I’ve been trying to ask the guys from Inmotion to talk more about their new in-house motor but so far they’ve been quiet. It looks like it’s physically bigger and has wide magnets. Probably geared towards torque. Impossible yet to know the real reason for investing into own design when very good motors are already available to use. Hopefully something good for us!

@Liamfind would you care to share more on that new motor?

They said something about bigger magnets (somehow the figure of 30% is stuck in my head but I am not sure). Of that means stronger too I don't know.

I know you are not to put too much into cad/cam arts. But it seems the diameter looks bigger to a 18" rim compared to the S18 that has a rim extention mounted on the motor. 

Earlier today I exchanged a few words with Liam. He is apparently busy with their L9 scooter launch so he has not had time for EUCs.

Looking at how little IM has chosen to post (or not post here), I think you stand a better chance to get answers to questions by joining their WhatsApp channel. It is pinned post in Inmotion thread. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Unventor

[mrelwood]

6 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

A few of us have tried to explain sprung vs unsprung weights ...

I’ve read the explanations. I’m now interested in knowing how the people who explain have gotten their knowledge or assumptions. I know that no-one has tested and compared different unsprung suspension weights on an EUC, and I’m pretty sure they haven’t done that in any other vehicle either. And Wikipedia disagrees with you on how unsprung weight affects ride comfort.

6 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

his feedback confirms what we're saying should happen.

To be real, nobody said anything about wether less unsprung weight would make the suspension feel smoother or more comfortable. Everybody just said that it would be “better“.

 One of the reasons I brought up my car tires is nicely underlined by @ShanesPlanet: Even when the vehicle is the same and only the tires and wheels are replaced, there are numerous possible explanations for the better comfort, unsprung weight being quite far down the list as a probability, even in your own response. These two EUCs share only the tire size, absolutely nothing else is the same. Yet you say that Kuji’s preliminary comment “confirms” your theory. That’s quite a leap, and I’m not buying. Sure, you may be correct in the end, but we’d have to dig a whole lot deeper to actually confirm anything.

Going a bit off topic, the reason for my new car tires (bigger rim, smaller sidewall) to be more comfortable on slow speed bumps is that the shock absorbers are optimized for this type of tire. A taller sidewall cushioned the bumps more by itself, and the suspension didn’t open the extra valves it’s supposed to when riding into bumps. I’m convinced of this because the same happens when I deflate the tire a bit: it becomes less comfortable, unlike what one would expect.

[.....]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I’ve read the explanations. I’m now interested in knowing how the people who explain have gotten their knowledge or assumptions. I know that no-one has tested and compared different unsprung suspension weights on an EUC, and I’m pretty sure they haven’t done that in any other vehicle either. And Wikipedia disagrees with you on how unsprung weight affects ride comfort.

To be real, nobody said anything about wether less unsprung weight would make the suspension feel smoother or more comfortable. Everybody just said that it would be “better“.

 One of the reasons I brought up my car tires is nicely underlined by @ShanesPlanet: Even when the vehicle is the same and only the tires and wheels are replaced, there are numerous possible explanations for the better comfort, unsprung weight being quite far down the list as a probability, even in your own response. These two EUCs share only the tire size, absolutely nothing else is the same. Yet you say that Kuji’s preliminary comment “confirms” your theory. That’s quite a leap, and I’m not buying. Sure, you may be correct in the end, but we’d have to dig a whole lot deeper to actually confirm anything.

Going a bit off topic, the reason for my new car tires (bigger rim, smaller sidewall) to be more comfortable on slow speed bumps is that the shock absorbers are optimized for this type of tire. A taller sidewall cushioned the bumps more by itself, and the suspension didn’t open the extra valves it’s supposed to when riding into bumps. I’m convinced of this because the same happens when I deflate the tire a bit: it becomes less comfortable, unlike what one would expect.

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/unsprung_weight.html

There is TONS of evidence about the benefits of lower unsprung weight.

Your car example doesnt apply, as your suspension was improperly balanced for the smaller rims. Bigger rims are WAY heavier and you are seeing the benefits of more rotating mass because of it. Your suspension was set up to HAVE to handle more inertia, it was set up too stiffly. If you had tried the lighter rims with a lighter suspension setup(gvwr rules do apply), you would be making different assumptions.  Of course, the weight of your vehicle wont change, so there is a limit to how soft a usefull suspension could be. You want the best ride, you make a suspension as soft as possible with the least amount of unsprung weight, before bottoming out. More unsprung weight places more work on the suspension, requiring a tighter setup. Comfort is how much you DONT feel the road. Typically having more sidewall, makes a smoother ride. Obviously you have shorter sidewalls now(I bet ride height is still taller?), but they must still be within a tolerable amount, or you'd see a much harsher ride over bumps, tho a much more direct feel with the road. Lower profile (sidewalls) and less psi WILL make the ride poor and also risk your rims. Comparing a poorly calibrated suspension with OBVIOUS inadequate tires/rims, to that of a properly set up suspension, means you cant compare things as simply as 'which one weighs more".  Maybe all these race teams and moto-cross riders have it wrong? I doubt it. Tho cars and bikes arent the same, suspension geometry and spinning mass and unsprung weight can be somewhat relative in results. I can say 2 identical cars have NOTHING in common, simply because one has a smaller engine and different color paint, but it doesnt make it true, nor does it add credibility to any further statements I make about them. Kuji's opinion didnt resonate will with the v11 crowd, i get it. Noone wants to hear that their pony didnt perform as well, in ANY areas. We will defend our buying decisions with qestionable judgement. I was a suspension and alignment tech near Bristol Motor Speedway for a decade. FIrestone, bridgstone, Michellin, you name it, I went to factories and attended work shops. Even so, it never surprises me to learn that I am mistaken. You'd never believe some of the stories I could tell about how we 'adjusted' some of those cars for the fastest quarter mile in the country... Lotta redneck dirt track racers out here too. I also raced the usca circuit with my own car for a while... I always lost, my pockets werent big enough.

These Eucs have a LOT in common. They run one wheel, they support similar weight, they have similar power capabilities. Claiming that NOTHING is the same, means that we are seeing from VERY different perspectives. I find it tiring to try and persuade anyone who uses absolutes incorrectly.

Edited May 20, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Unventor]

44 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Kuji's opinion didnt resonate will with the v11 crowd, i get it. Noone wants to hear that their pony didnt perform as well, in ANY areas. We will defend our buying decisions with qestionable judgement. I was a suspension and alignment tech near Bristol Motor Speedway for a decade.

If this was the case then both KS18L/XL would not be worth looking at. Yet just because it isn't best is class is not the same as it being a bad option. 

People choose their wheel for different reasons. I am not a suspension master. But I do know that somethings work very different when it comes to EUCs. Also Kuji said himself the suspension is a new thing for him too. 

Accidents mechanics are very different as an example. It is rare to see an instant faceplant on a mc or bicycle. The road grip is also different compared to a bicycle/mc.

If we compare wheel models the Z10 and to some degree KS16X acts different due to the "gyro effect" and that is different on many levels to most other EUCs. Now I have not tested a 22" GW but I am pretty sure that has it's own differences due to rim size and mass.

But if are to look at cars then a Paris-dacar rally car vi a Formula 1 car are so different in suspension setup and construction that you can't really compare these. 

I suspect this not as profound between S18 and V11. But even if S18 should be "better" in suspension area, I am likely going to enjoy my incoming V11. 

I am for sure not going to chicken out just because of a few first comments. As in the bigger picture. It is still more comfortable ride on either model compared to a "normal" EUC. 

I am looking forward to see more independent reviews of these new wheels and also for how to disassemble the wheel/maintenance/tirechange videos.

[.....]

24 minutes ago, Unventor said:

If this was the case then both KS18L/XL would not be worth looking at. Yet just because it isn't best is class is not the same as it being a bad option. 

People choose their wheel for different reasons. I am not a suspension master. But I do know that somethings work very different when it comes to EUCs. Also Kuji said himself the suspension is a new thing for him too. 

Accidents mechanics are very different as an example. It is rare to see an instant faceplant on a mc or bicycle. The road grip is also different compared to a bicycle/mc.

If we compare wheel models the Z10 and to some degree KS16X acts different due to the "gyro effect" and that is different on many levels to most other EUCs. Now I have not tested a 22" GW but I am pretty sure that has it's own differences due to rim size and mass.

But if are to look at cars then a Paris-dacar rally car vi a Formula 1 car are so different in suspension setup and construction that you can't really compare these. 

I suspect this not as profound between S18 and V11. But even if S18 should be "better" in suspension area, I am likely going to enjoy my incoming V11. 

I am for sure not going to chicken out just because of a few first comments. As in the bigger picture. It is still more comfortable ride on either model compared to a "normal" EUC. 

I am looking forward to see more independent reviews of these new wheels and also for how to disassemble the wheel/maintenance/tirechange videos.

I agree with you, tho Im not sure your point about the Ks18 argument? If someone places ZERO value in suspension, I feel that neither the s18 or v11 is a good choice. The s18 and v11 are very similar, but i think they will each outperform the other in various areas. I would surely hope that BOTH wheels perform great in all areas, even if one of them was slightly better in one. I see both wheels as being great options. I can concede that the v11 has MANY obvious advantages over the s18 on a few areas and vice versa(still just guessing). Of course, the importance of each 'advantage' is completely opinion based (for most of them). Each of us has different things we want from a wheel. Each of us picks and chooses what to focus on and what we can overlook for the compromise. If BOTH wheels perform more than adequately in all areas, it winds up being a pure judgement call.

I have little doubt that you cant go wrong with either one. Whichever a person ends up buying, they will more than likely enjoy it and hopefully feel as tho they made the correct choice. IN the end, I only care about how the wheel makes me feel. I also hope that other riders prefer theirs and how it makes THEM feel. Ribbing on people is always fun, and having BOTH of these out at one time, that's going to make this very enjoyable to watch and be a part of. We ALL know that black is the fastest color... prove it aint!

Edited May 20, 2020 by ShanesPlanet