INMOTION V11 (2020)

[Planemo]

Lower unsprung weight is always better. Theres no debate over this simple fact involving physics. That's why we are starting to move into sprung wheels in the first place. The only issue up for debate is how well the suspension is implemented. Because of this sprung/unsprung fact, by default any suspension is generally (I say generally because if the design/components are truly shite then you are better off ditching them and saving the weight) better than none, but theres no doubt the S18 has a better design. This of course doesn't mean it will ride better as that depends on quality of componentry and implementation.

Heres something I can tell you though - my ebike, which is fairly high end, fully suspended (with Fox components) with a well designed rising rate linkage system rides unbelievably smoothly over all surfaces compared to a non sus bike. Heres the thing - I often swop out the stock rear wheel for a motorized wheel if I am doing general road riding. The motor wheel is around 4kg heavier. Where this extra weight (unsprung of course) mainly manifests itself is whenever the wheel loses touch with the surface. The best example I can think of is dropping off a kerb - there is a very noticeable 'thunk' (as expected) from 4kg of unsprung extra weight hitting the tarmac compared to the stock wheel. That said, when the wheel doesn't leave the surface, it's not a massive difference. The suspension still works pretty damn well and soaks up me and the bikes weight very well over areas where the suspension can act fast enough. 

So in short, I believe both the V11 and S18 will ride more smoothly than non-sus wheels, but if you are really throwing them around (up/down steps/kerbs) or have any kind of surface where the wheel is likely to lose contact the S18 should work better.

I don't have an axe to grind over either of these wheels as I won't be buying either of them (I need range/speed above all else).

[Nic]

Lower mass accelerates faster and can therefore track the contours of the terrain better at higher speeds. If riding below the speed at which the wheels start to lose tracking then there should (in theory) be little difference between the V11/S18. In my view the V11 is better suited to on-road use and the S18 to off-road use.

[Planemo]

8 minutes ago, Nic said:

Lower mass accelerates faster and can therefore track the contours of the terrain better at higher speeds. If riding below the speed at which the wheels start to lose tracking then there should (in theory) be little difference between the V11/S18. In my view the V11 is better suited to on-road use and the S18 to off-road use.

Yep, although even on-road a lower unsprung weight could really help, for example a pot hole. The S18 may, just may be able to ride it out if the suspension can react quick enough. The V11 might not...

….but both will still have a better chance than a wheel with no suspension lol.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/unsprung_weight.html

There is TONS of evidence about the benefits of lower unsprung weight.

Absolutely, I’m not questioning the universally known benefits at all. But your link, like all others I’ve seen, doesn’t mention a single word about comfort. They talk only about F1, race cars, and briefly mention expensive lightweight magnesium wheels being available for passenger cars.

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Your car example doesnt apply, as your suspension was improperly balanced for the smaller rims.

That was exactly the point: There are numerous possible reasons for Kuji’s first feeling on the V11 suspension not feeling as sensitive as the S18 that he’s been able to familiarize and tweak for himself for weeks. Saying that the one sentence “confirms” the effects of unsprung weight on an EUC simply isn’t what “confirm“ means.

If changing only the tires on a car doesn’t apply as an example of unsprung weight, how come two EUCs with different motor weights, significantly different vehicle weight, different tires, completely different suspension mechanisms, etc, does? 

 

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Comparing a poorly calibrated suspension with OBVIOUS inadequate tires/rims, to that of a properly set up suspension

Both tire sizes are mentioned in the register as standard, and the shocks are for a standard setup of this car. Poorly calibrated, maybe, but sold as compliant nevertheless. Are you referring to the V11 demo unit as a “properly set up suspension”? I haven’t seen anything that would even hint that it is.

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Kuji's opinion didnt resonate will with the v11 crowd, i get it.

You are reading into things, just like @mike_bike_kite. Nobody has had an issue with Kuji’s comment. If anything, I’m waiting for his reviews with even more enthusiasm, because I know that he tends to be very unbiased and able to find out the actual reasons for whatever he experiences.

 My only issue is calling the first quick one-liner “confirming” a theory that is against what is generally written about the effects of unsprung weight.

I would like to read about how lower unsprung weight makes the ride less comfortable at EUC speeds. If it is a known fact, a source shouldn’t be very hard to provide.

 

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

We will defend our buying decisions with qestionable judgement.

Sounds like someone has maybe gotten under your skin in the S18 thread? I’m well aware that the V11 is not ideal for me on  several accounts. I’m realistic enough not to try to make them look like they are. My issue is that I want to actually learn and confirm things I read, before taking things in as facts.

 

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

how we 'adjusted' some of those cars for the fastest quarter mile in the country...

That truly is amazing! I’m sure you have experienced a LOT. How much did the riders and drivers talk about slow speed cruising comfort?

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I find it tiring to try and persuade anyone who uses absolutes incorrectly.

Sorry if I did. Maybe I’ve mistaken the word “same” with “similar”?

[Planemo]

9 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Absolutely, I’m not questioning the universally known benefits at all. But your link, like all others I’ve seen, doesn’t mention a single word about comfort. 

The ability to control vertical wheel movement is the be-all and end all. Whether it's for comfort or (in the case of F1) traction. All roads lead to the same place - control.

Additional traction is a side benefit of good suspension. Comfort is a side benefit of good suspension. Don't be misled by going down the lines of simply thinking that good suspension is only for race cars.

Unsprung weight is bad by default, because you are no longer controlling that weight. It does what it wants.

Going back to my ebike wheel example, there is discomfort and a noticeable thud when I drop off a kerb with the motor wheel. With the stock wheel, I just 'float' off the kerb, barely feeling it.

That difference is from nothing other than an increase in unsprung weight. And it's not a huge amount by any means (around 4kg)...so maybe even less than the unsprung weight difference between a V11 vs S18? The point being... if I can feel that difference without question on a bicycle...I have no doubt you could feel it on an EUC...especially if the unsprung weight difference is even more..

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

The ability to control vertical wheel movement is the be-all and end all.

 I don’t believe in be-alls and end-alls. I think every claim must be able to stand on its own.

 

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

Don't be misled by going down the lines of simply thinking that good suspension is only for race cars.

Being “good” suspension doesn’t mean it’s better in every aspect, design choices are always a compromise. I’d much rather have bad suspension on my car than the best race car suspension, because my requirements are completely different.

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

Unsprung weight is bad by default, because you are no longer controlling that weight. It does what it wants.

Doesn’t that claim make the high speed stability of the Monster, Z10, MSX/P/S etc bad by default?

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

That difference is from nothing other than an increase in unsprung weight.

The weight by itself doesn’t mean much at all. How many % is the weight increase, and how many % is it from the bike’s weight?

But sure, your example sounds like big enough increase in unsprung weight could cause discomfort that can’t be dialed out by adjusting tire pressure and suspension settings.

[Sergey]

 

[mike_bike_kite]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

You are reading into things, just like @mike_bike_kite.

I'm not reading into things, I'm just stating how the physics works. Kuji's initial findings also seem to reflect what should happen though I'm sure he'll provide more info shortly. Car and motorbike engineers also seem to believe in improving the sprung to unsprung ratio as they do this for all vehicles not just performance vehicles. If you imagine a very heavy car with very light wheels driving over a bouncy road. The car's movement will be minimal due to inertia but the light wheels will move up and down quickly to follow the contours of the road. Now if you picture a very light car with heavy wheels going over the same bouncy road - the wheels will still go up and down but now the car will be rocking about with each wheel movement as the vehicle has less inertia to stay stable. It gets worse because the extra inertia in the heavy wheels will mean that the wheel will continue upwards after hitting a bump until it eventually falls back to the road again. All vehicles that favour comfort over other criteria tend to have heavy bodies to improve their sprung weight. They also tend to favour tyres with large tyre walls as the tyre wall can absorb smaller bumps directly but not because the wheels are heavy. 

 If you want an EUC with a lower sprung to unsprung ratio then just buy a wheel without any suspension. Simple!

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

 I’d much rather have bad suspension on my car than the best race car suspension, because my requirements are completely different.

I think you're getting mixed up between 'firm' and 'soft' suspension, rather than 'good' or 'bad'. A top F1 suspension supplier could indeed make very good road suspension. It would just be incredibly expensive.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Doesn’t that claim make the high speed stability of the Monster, Z10, MSX/P/S etc bad by default?

Not sure I understand. All of those wheels are unsprung, so they all suffer the same issues when hitting surface irregularities. They feel more 'stable' than smaller wheels due to overall weight and rotating mass, and it helps to some degree when hitting bumps as they are less likely to get thrown off course, but unsprung mass is unsprung mass. As you know our only suspension is our legs, and they are far from perfect in fine controlling vertical movements of a 25kg mass under us.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

The weight by itself doesn’t mean much at all. How many % is the weight increase, and how many % is it from the bike’s weight?

I take that point, but comparing it to the bikes mass still doesn't make much difference given I can't dial it out whatever I do (because it's unsprung). The bike could be 50kg or 10kg. The issue is a weight falling off a kerb which is not attached to the workings of the suspension system. Maybe if the bike weighed 1000kg (with correspondingly heavier wheels to suit) I might not notice an extra 4kg on a wheel but we are starting to get way beyond reality when comparing a bike to an euc.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

But sure, your example sounds like big enough increase in unsprung weight could cause discomfort that can’t be dialed out by adjusting tire pressure and suspension settings.

No amount of adjustment can 'dial out' unsprung mass.

[B08AH]

22 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I recently changed the tires on my car to a different size, and the tires themselves are noticeably heavier. Nothing else in the car was changed. As a result, the ride is much more comfortable in bumps than it was with the lighter tires. Why is that?

Here is an experiment that is much easier than changing tires - compare empty car vs loaded. Cars usually move so much smoother when fully loaded. 

Edited May 20, 2020 by B08AH

[mike_bike_kite]

I'm fairly sure I didn't say that

[Unventor]

Now despite what people choose to debate back and forth. I choose to look more that posted video from Kuji above. 

It clearly shows it works. And it mitigate most of the bumps but also it isn't glued to the surface. This is what I would expect. You also see clearly that the tire is part of the suspension feel. 

That type of ride would be something my knees would hurt a lot days after if I had to absorb this only in my legs/back and knees. Now to avoid doing this I stand slightly tiptoed on my wheels as I use foot/ankle to a extra suspension body part. But it also comes at a risk of losing grip with pedals. Being able to stand more flat footed should increase my control of the wheel. 

I can see this as a huge benefits to how I ride and where I can ride compared to my current wheels. I might even be able to ride at higher tire pressure as I don't need the same tire suspension softness anymore. And this could even increase my range options.

So bottom line I couldn't care less about spung or unspung ratio. In my simple mind this is nothing but fantastic future to my rides as I see it. And I am so stoked and looking forward for my V11.

Sorry I just can't help being excited about this. 

[Nic]

2 hours ago, Sergey said:

 

Perfect example of unsprung weight ... the V11 wheel losses contact with the ground over some of the bumps ... be nice to compare with S18. You don't want this happening on corners at speed. It might not affect comfort much ... its hard to tell from a video.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Nic

[redfoxdude]

It should certainly be noted that Kuji rides at rim-bendingly low PSI, but yeah, this looks great! I did notice from different videos that the unsprung side of the V11 does seem to bounce more on bigger drops, but it doesn't transfer the bouncing much to the rider.

The S18 lost some contact with the ground at times too, from what I remember in Kuji's street video. It's of course gonna happen when you're going fast enough over a big enough bump. I do think the S18 will have a slight edge in terms of maintaining tire contact, but I think the V11 will do a great job.

This isn't a, one is bad and the other is good situation. I am sure both wheels will make riding on bad roads much more comfortable, and safer 🙂 Looking forward to more footage and reviews!

[Phong Vu]

2 hours ago, Nic said:

Perfect example of unsprung weight ... the V11 wheel losses contact with the ground over some of the bumps ... be nice to compare with S18. You don't want this happening on corners at speed. It might not affect comfort much ... its hard to tell from a video.

I don't think so...
You can look at this example, same thing happen to the S18:

 

[Nic]

16 minutes ago, Phong Vu said:

I don't think so...
You can look at this example, same thing happen to the S18:

 

No one said same thing won't happen with S18, just that it will happen at higher speed and/or bigger bumps because it should track better.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Nic

[.....]

20 hours ago, Planemo said:

Yep, although even on-road a lower unsprung weight could really help, for example a pot hole. The S18 may, just may be able to ride it out if the suspension can react quick enough. The V11 might not...

….but both will still have a better chance than a wheel with no suspension lol.

Suspension theory is a lot more complex than people realize. Planemo is right on this one. The less unspring weight, the easier it is to dial in faster rebound/dampening and allow for a smoother ride. We can argue about these wheels until we are blue in the face. Decades of arguing has turned into physics and reality in the discussion of suspensions. IM an KS are NOT reinventing suspensions by ANY means.

Edited May 21, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Phong Vu]

39 minutes ago, Nic said:

No one said same thing won't happen with S18, just that it will happen at higher speed and/or bigger bumps because it should track better.

Yup.
What I try to say is it's not really a perfect example for unstrung weight as you pointed out.
The speed is quite high and the bumps are not small ( it's comparable with the speed and bumps in the S18 video time mark).

We still need to see more tests on this. Pretty sure we can have first round review in a week.  

Edited May 20, 2020 by Phong Vu

[.....]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 I don’t believe in be-alls and end-alls. I think every claim must be able to stand on its own.

 

Being “good” suspension doesn’t mean it’s better in every aspect, design choices are always a compromise. I’d much rather have bad suspension on my car than the best race car suspension, because my requirements are completely different.

Doesn’t that claim make the high speed stability of the Monster, Z10, MSX/P/S etc bad by default?

The weight by itself doesn’t mean much at all. How many % is the weight increase, and how many % is it from the bike’s weight?

But sure, your example sounds like big enough increase in unsprung weight could cause discomfort that can’t be dialed out by adjusting tire pressure and suspension settings.

controlling of up and down= suspension. Simple and it is what stands on its own.

If you think a bad suspension on a car is more comfortable rather than a race suspension, you are a rarity. You are equating how stiff a suspension is, with how 'good/bad' it is. You have to realize that suspensions on race cars are adjustable. Just as they set them up for blazing fast conditions and hard g'force turns, they COULD set it up to ride more plush than a caddy on glass. Most people require their suspension to limit road vibration, support vehicle weight, dampen bumps, and maintain tire contact to the road. A generic car suspension HAS to compromise in most areas, as end users wont be setting them up  with a team of techs. A basic passenger car is being used on smooth terrain, snow, dirt roads, will carry 1-6 passengers, and needs to last a long time on the exact same settings. A race team hasnt these same worries. If i put a race suspension under your Ford Taurus and set it up to ride a specific way for comfort, it will DECIMATE the quality of the ride you could get with cheap bullshit factory specs. If i set up a taurus with overly stiff springs and wrong dampening, it will be much WORSE than what ford put on it originally.  ALL of this is not new but it does take a LOT of research, as the suspension debate is older than I am. I havent the energy to chase down publications to justify any of this. If you feel I am wrong, that's fine.  Wheels with 'no suspension' do have suspension, its in your knees and sidewall.  However, at high speeds on terrain that can overcome your knees and sidewall, a suspension wheel SHOULD be superior to those that arent. On smooth terrain where knees and tires are enough, the stability between suspension wheels and not, will be very similar. One can only hope that a suspension wheel will alleviate some of the effort required in your knee suspension. Basically.... smoother ride for the person.

Edited May 20, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[onizukagto]

6 hours ago, Sergey said:

 

Amazing! Looks so smooth!

[UniVehje]

42 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

ALL of this is not new but it does take a LOT of research, as the suspension debate is older than I am. I havent the energy to chase down publications to justify any of this. If you feel I am wrong, that's fine.

NO ONE has said you, or anybody else, is wrong about less unsprung mass = better always. Yes, it’s old and common knowledge. I think we should move on from this. I didn’t know suspension is so heated topic. We are on the verge of a massive improvement on our wheels and all we argue about is which version is slightly better. The two wheels are so different that some differences in suspension feel is not going to be the deciding factor. Let’s focus on the positive. 
 

My point was that this issue is not the ONLY deciding factor. Plus it becomes more important at higher speeds and for cornering grip. For our application at these speeds and mostly for comfort there are many other variables also that should be considered. I’m still not convinced a 1.5x difference in  unsprung mass is the main variable deciding better or worse suspension in this case. 1.5x variation from optimal preload would probably cause more harm.

I’m Now driving a car with magnetic ride suspension system. I can change it with a press of a button. I also used to drive a Citroen with air suspension and it was gloriously comfortable. All these differences are achieved without changing the unsprung mass. And I’ve liked them all. You could argue one version is objectively best, but definitely not for every application. 
And BTW, it’s the Citroen air suspension feel that I’m personally after in my next wheel (that I chose because of the battery). If you are looking for the tire to track a few milliseconds faster for better grip then you should absolutely go for the S18 anyway as it is lighter. And remember to wear spandex for less air resistance. 
 

 

[UniVehje]

52 minutes ago, onizukagto said:

Amazing! Looks so smooth!

Definitely! I love looking at that video. Seems to work just like I hoped. 

[Patton250]

9 hours ago, Sergey said:

 

I think it looks great. Very smooth. I might have missed it but when his full review be out?

Edited May 21, 2020 by Patton250

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Patton250 said:

I think it looks great. Very smooth. I might have missed it but when his full review be out?

In a week or two.

 Yeah, the unsprung mass discussion is going nowhere. As much as I hate to leave things with so many misunderstandings, there’s no point in continuing that subject.

I am also absolutely stoked about the Kuji’s latest clip! It shows a very large and seemingly easily accessible range of motion.

[Tryptych]

On 5/19/2020 at 2:09 AM, Kuji Rolls said:

yeah, sorry. I lurk around here from time to time, but in general im much more active on reddit and fb. 

I just received the v11 last night, immediately posted the pic on instagram and then went out for a quick ride before going to bed. This morning took the close up beauty shots so now im ready to start pushing her a little harder. My initial impressions (subject to change) are: The suspension is not as responsive or as smooth as the s18, but still solid. No wiggle and the handling is easy and tight. Motor control feels smooth and reliable (but i havent really pushed it). Both are significantly smoother to ride on bumpy streets than any wheel without suspension. 

Todays mission: find a way to put some padding on this wheel so i can push her harder. They didnt make this easy for me. 

I am going crazy waiting for your V11 review! It's May 21 and I'm losing my mind!

...don't waste anytime with sleeping, or eating, or anything else in life, we need the V11 video so so bad!!  

Edited May 21, 2020 by Tryptych