King Song S18 Discussion

[Kuji Rolls]

On 5/12/2020 at 3:23 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

Very commendable but we're absolutely starved of independent information at the moment. Any chance you could at least give an idea of the range and speed a little sooner? Perhaps also mention the battery percentage when speed throttling occurs? Maybe even how easy or confusing it is to set up the suspension? I'm definitely looking forward to watching your big review though.

I'll do my best to address your questions! The settings i had it were more stiff than ideal, but i didnt want to bottom out and break their prototype.  I still have a lot to learn about suspensions. 

[AtlasP]

17 hours ago, Kuji Rolls said:

I still have a lot to learn about suspensions. 

Such a class act compared to some PEV youtubers who just try to bullsh1t their way through everything.

Edited May 14, 2020 by AtlasP

[Unventor]

2 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

Such a class act compared to all the PEV youtubers who just try to bullsh1t their way through everything.

Of the YouTube reviewers we see linked here from time to time to time, I like Kuji the most. It is just a bit sad we don't see you comment around here more often @Kuji Rolls

[Lindsey]

6 hours ago, Kuji Rolls said:

I'll do my best to address your questions! The settings i had it were more stiff than ideal, but i didnt want to bottom out and break their prototype.  I still have a lot to learn about suspensions. 

There are many electric wheel YouTubers overseas. It seems to give good information through hard tests, characteristics of electric wheels,

and various perspectives and opinions for general users. I always cheer for you.

There are many electric wheel YouTubers that I like. It also includes "Kuji Rolls."Of course this is my personal opinion.

It's up to the viewers!

It was a long story. I'm sorry.

 

I have a question...!!

 

question-1

King Song - KS-S18 does not seem to have a side pad.

I'm curious about the overall grip and the dented feeling of the knee.
It's the user's technology anyway, but I think the wobble will often break because there is no pad.

 

question-2

KingSong - KS-S18 uses "DNM AOY-36RC".
What's the lifespan If damaged, will the reaction of the electric wheel have the same effect as the electric wheel without a support?

 

question-3

King Song - KS-S18 is an optimized off-road model, but there are many exposed parts without a cover.

I'd like to hear how to maintain it.

 

I'm curious about many things....   I'm sorry... 

please don't get hurt and be safe..!!

I am waiting for your next video.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Lindsey

[.....]

20 hours ago, Lindsey said:

question-1

King Song - KS-S18 does not seem to have a side pad.

I'm curious about the overall grip and the dented feeling of the knee.
It's the user's technology anyway, but I think the wobble will often break because there is no pad.

 

question-2

KingSong - KS-S18 uses "DNM AOY-36RC".
What's the lifespan If damaged, will the reaction of the electric wheel have the same effect as the electric wheel without a support?

 

question-3

King Song - KS-S18 is an optimized off-road model, but there are many exposed parts without a cover.

I'd like to hear how to maintain it.

 

I'm curious about many things....   I'm sorry... 

please don't get hurt and be safe..!!

I am waiting for your next video.

I'm betting Mr. Rolls will review these in due time. Hopefully he won't be asked so many questions that he regrets being around.  Here's my take on your questions. I havent ridden or seen it, but I always have an opinion.

1) I see a side pad and KS claimed it was designed in part with Kuji. I think the comfort of ANY pads, is highly dependent on riding style and size of the rider. I also think that wobble is mitigated thru how a rider applies his weight on the pedals, along with use of the pads. I don't think he can answer this for you either.

2)If a shock is damaged, it depends on HOW it is damaged. I can surmise that you can lock the shock out and it will act similar to a hard tail euc. ONLY if the 'damage', isnt to the linkage or the locking part of the shock. There's no real way to answer that either, as its highly dependent on HOW the shock is damaged. I would suspect that if a shock is damaged so that it stays bottomed out, and the lock on the shock isnt working, it would ride like a hardtail, until you unload the wheel. Again, depends on how the shock is damaged.

3)I dont recall it being marketed as on optimized off-road model( i hope it is!!). KS is cleverly allowing us to decide if we think it is for on/off road. I plan on hosing mine down and letting it dry, when its dirty. I'll also be inspecting and lubing pivot points regularly. I think that it being open is nothing to fear in itself. MANY machines for off road are open design. Electronics are usually housed out of the path of water that enters it. As with most off road (or on road) open bodied vehicles, DONT use high pressure water and don't put it away wet. Im not sure how ANYONE can answer about maintenance, as there isnt any production models out with enough normal use, to even need maintenance. I do believe the maintenance requirements will be learned as the machine ages under different conditions. 

Anyhow, just my two cents. Mr. Rolls can definitely speak for himself. I just would rather not see him questioned too much and also become less involved with us in general. No offense intended at all. Just my $.02

Edited May 15, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[fbhb]

KS-S18 Climbing Test!  Posted on Facebook by Eileen Mao

 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by fbhb

[.....]

8 minutes ago, fbhb said:

KS-S18 Climbing Test!  Posted on Facebook by Eileen Mao

 

 

I saw that but didnt know how to share. YOurs isnt popping up for me. All I can say is Wow! Far exceeds my skill, so I'm not worried about that part of it at least....

[mrelwood]

The hill climbing test sure is a steep one, but it has me worried. Aren’t we supposed to be looking at 4” of suspension travel? The tire is bouncing off the ground, the rider’s heels are bouncing up and down, and we see barely any suspension action at all.

I really hope that they are still working on the suspension. If it rides up hills better with the suspension locked, the suspension is not really working, now is it?

[Unventor]

6 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The hill climbing test sure is a steep one, but it has me worried. Aren’t we supposed to be looking at 4” of suspension travel? The tire is bouncing off the ground, the rider’s heels are bouncing up and down, and we see barely any suspension action at all.

I really hope that they are still working on the suspension. If it rides up hills better with the suspension locked, the suspension is not really working, now is it?

Now the recording/playback is not 4k quality at super high bit rate. And since we have not seen the hill it is hard to see how rough the terrain really is. 

Even with suspension there are some forces at play and it might (I say might here still) be that ride style from non-suspended wheels is still part of how rides are riding these suspension wheels. From what I think I see, and what I noticed is that it seems the wheel have constant traction on the ground which is a indicator to me the suspension is working. 

This is why I am not putting too much into these early brief recordings. Once we get real comment and better quality videos it is a different matter, imho. And yet these are not final product wheels we are going to see in first ware of reviewers. End users will maybe tell a slightly different story. Both on the transaction from normal wheels to suspension wheels. 

[.....]

Isnt a hill more of a lateral force than vertical, at least as for bumps? Mostly tearing forwards and the cg is definitely NOT aligned for the most efficient use of suspension. I'd bet he was bouncing as the wheel was grabbing and losing a little traction. Seemed to be similar to what I'd expect, but damn what an angle. I think the suspension enabled the tire to stay planted as much as it did. Usually my supermoto stays about bottomed out as I climb. The torque of the wheel keeps it compressed as it fights gravity, leaving less travel to mitigate bumps.  Who knows, just me hoping for the best.

Edited May 15, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

I know all this is just more of the same old scrutiny over short clips on a prototype unit with zero specifics on the circumstances, but since these clips are published to form an opinion and hopefully even a purchase decision, I see it as being warranted.

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Isnt a hill more of a lateral force than vertical, at least as for bumps?

The steeper the hill and the bumps, the more the motor and the tire are pushing themselves up directly against the suspension. On a MC the pivot point is behind a lever, on an EUC there is none, it’s direct up & down movement.

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

The torque of the wheel keeps it compressed as it fights gravity

I see very little difference in the shell ride level compared to the rider riding on the flat section.

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

Now the recording/playback is not 4k quality at super high bit rate.

Nor does it need to be. The very first video we saw on the V11 was way worse in quality, and the rider simply rode down and up a curb. And we can still see his feet moving very smoothly and slowly to the lower/higher plane. All further videos show similar behavior. The behavior that all published S18 videos have shown is  practically the polar opposite of the V11. I’m getting more and more certain that the suspensions will be nothing alike. Even in the final production versions.

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

Once we get real comment and better quality videos it is a different matter, imho.

I agree. But until then, I’ll keep watching the videos on repeat with a hawk eye... Waiting for the day I’ll finally get mine! 

[Dave Wood]

4 hours ago, fbhb said:

KS-S18 Climbing Test!  Posted on Facebook by Eileen Mao

 

 

That's cool and all but that guy must be like 8 stone soaking wet

[Lindsey]

9 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I'm betting Mr. Rolls will review these in due time. Hopefully he won't be asked so many questions that he regrets being around.  Here's my take on your questions. I havent ridden or seen it, but I always have an opinion.

1) I see a side pad and KS claimed it was designed in part with Kuji. I think the comfort of ANY pads, is highly dependent on riding style and size of the rider. I also think that wobble is mitigated thru how a rider applies his weight on the pedals, along with use of the pads. I don't think he can answer this for you either.

2)If a shock is damaged, it depends on HOW it is damaged. I can surmise that you can lock the shock out and it will act similar to a hard tail euc. ONLY if the 'damage', isnt to the linkage or the locking part of the shock. There's no real way to answer that either, as its highly dependent on HOW the shock is damaged. I would suspect that if a shock is damaged so that it stays bottomed out, and the lock on the shock isnt working, it would ride like a hardtail, until you unload the wheel. Again, depends on how the shock is damaged.

3)I dont recall it being marketed as on optimized off-road model( i hope it is!!). KS is cleverly allowing us to decide if we think it is for on/off road. I plan on hosing mine down and letting it dry, when its dirty. I'll also be inspecting and lubing pivot points regularly. I think that it being open is nothing to fear in itself. MANY machines for off road are open design. Electronics are usually housed out of the path of water that enters it. As with most off road (or on road) open bodied vehicles, DONT use high pressure water and don't put it away wet. Im not sure how ANYONE can answer about maintenance, as there isnt any production models out with enough normal use, to even need maintenance. I do believe the maintenance requirements will be learned as the machine ages under different conditions. 

Anyhow, just my two cents. Mr. Rolls can definitely speak for himself. I just would rather not see him questioned too much and also become less involved with us in general. No offense intended at all. Just my $.02

Oh, thank you so much for your answer.

Spoiler

Hopefully he won't be asked so many questions that he regrets being around.  Here's my take on your questions. I havent ridden or seen it, but I always have an opinion.

Your words make me sad.

I get it. I won't give him a hard time with many questions......

I think I'll have to watch him on video.

Spoiler

Anyhow, just my two cents. Mr. Rolls can definitely speak for himself. I just would rather not see him questioned too much and also become less involved with us in general. No offense intended at all. Just my $.02

Your opinion was very helpful. I'm also happy to know things I don't know.

I will never misunderstand you.

I respect your opinion.

Thank you.!!

 

[travsformation]

Based on the (very preliminary, not enough votes to be representative) data from the polls @SamSuffit and myself created (1. How do you use your EUC?, 2) Off-roading habits 3) Speed and protective equipment), KS and IM’s recent releases are pretty much in accordance user’s riding habits, and speed, range and off-road capabilities aren’t as important to most users as they may seem...

85% of users live in the city or suburbs. Most users use their wheel for everything, from commuting to running errands and leisure, with only 30% who don’t use it for leisure and 18% for leisure only.

Distance-wise, daily commutes are mostly up to 10 km (43%), with 30% being up to 30 km—more than that is rare. For leisure, most riders (55%) don’t do tours longer than 30 km, with rides from 30-60 km in length being the average for 35% of users. That means 90% of users don't go on tours longer than 60 km.

Off-roading is uncommon for commutes (for 86% of users it involves maximum a short stretch of unpaved road), while for leisure riding, it makes up a maximum of 25% of most users’ riding. For 45% of riders, leaving the asphalt/tarmac involves easy-going scenic routes. 68% of all riders who answered the poll aren’t interested in off-roading for the sake of off-roading (9% don’t leave the asphalt, 23% prefer flat, compacted and well-maintained scenic routes and 36% don’t mind a few ruts and bumps, but nothing too challenging, off-roading isn’t their main priority)

Off-roading enthusiasts only make up about 1/3 of all riders, and of those riders, 68% don’t tend to go on tours longer than 15 km. Riders who do 30 km or more account for about 32% (27% do 30-60 km, and only 4.5% more than 60).

In terms of riding speeds, only 16% of riders cruise at 50 km/h or more, with the most common cruising speed being 35 km/h (42%). Only 18% of users ever surpass 50 km/h, the most common max. speed is 50 km/h (37%), followed by 45 km/h (29%).

Now look at the specs of the S18 and V11. According the the info in the polls, most riders should be more than happy with these wheels. Don't agree? Don't feel your riding habits are represented? Take the polls! 

[Flying W]

I wonder how the speed on the polls is effected by the wheels people own. I had to pick 35km for cruising speed because I ride with dad and he's on a 16s and sits right at tiltback most of the time on smooth ground. If he had an 18xl like he wants that speed would most likely be 40km. He gets bored at 35, he's also 68 and don't want him eating pavement going much faster but he is still speed demons child at heart 

[Dave Wood]

28 minutes ago, Flying W said:

I wonder how the speed on the polls is effected by the wheels people own.

Id say it's more based on the surfaces and the areas people ride, generally the only time your gonna reach around 40mph is out on open country side roads and places where it's safe to do so, how many people live in cities or even populated areas vs riders who don't usually have to deal people or traffic so regularly

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Dave Wood said:

Id say it's more based on the surfaces and the areas people ride, generally the only time your gonna reach around 40mph is out on open country side roads and places where it's safe to do so, how many people live in cities or even populated areas vs riders who don't usually have to deal people or traffic so regularly

Come to California   There's only about 40-million of us here, but we like our speed on everything, including EUC's.

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Come to California   There's only about 40-million of us here, but we like our speed on everything, including EUC's.

Well I don't think that is going to happen. I don't do well in the heat. And I am getting too old for speed. I lost my athletic abilities 10+ years ago. Now I do what I can but my joints are not good for flexibility and fast reactions. Something I have learned to accept,  the cycle of life. 

[travsformation]

I should have mentioned in my previous post....I'm counting on (and waiting for) an S18XL 

[.....]

I'll race ya! First one to have to order replacement (non-maintenance) parts totaling more than $100usd, wins?

Edited May 16, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Flying W]

I am spoiled being is so cal, I can ride 30 miles and only have to cross a street 3 to 4 times the rest is on bike paths. I don't even need to ride in bike lanes unless I'm going shopping or back when I was riding to work. 

Then ya add in all the dirt trails here and it's a very narrow view of these wheels get used. I think the city planners had a crystal ball and knew decades ago that they were building all of this for future wheel riders!

[mrelwood]

 

13 hours ago, travsformation said:

Now look at the specs of the S18 and V11. According the the info in the polls, most riders should be more than happy with these wheels.

I disagree on your view about what the poll data presents. I wrote a detailed reply here, if anyone’s interested:

 

[.....]

Introduced my buddy to euc's.  I let him stand on the mten (he asked to buy it) and he watched me on the 18L. I THEN showed him the v11 and he said 'that's pretty cool'.  I then showed him the s18 and he said "holy shit, that looks badass!". He then looked over and pointed at my supermoto and said, "you have an s18 otw dont you? If you don't, you better, as it's definitely your flavor". Now this little story means very little. It DOES however tell me that even HE recognizes that the s18 speaks to the adventure crowd. This was all based on merely appearance, but honestly, even those of us trying to make guesses, are still relying on mostly appearance. Fwiw, my buddy is in this mid 30's and an avid disc golfer. Not quite of the business class crowd.

Edited May 20, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Unventor]

On 5/16/2020 at 1:54 AM, travsformation said:

I should have mentioned in my previous post....I'm counting on (and waiting for) an S18XL 

That could be a long wait. But I were in the same boat sitting out 1st gen suspension versions. But then I got persuaded and now I am very much looking forward to my V11. 

[AtlasP]

On 5/19/2020 at 11:52 PM, ShanesPlanet said:

Introduced my buddy to euc's.  I let him stand on the mten (he asked to buy it) and he watched me on the 18L. I THEN showed him the v11 and he said 'that's pretty cool'.  I then showed him the s18 and he said "holy shit, that looks badass!". He then looked over and pointed at my supermoto and said, "you have an s18 otw dont you? If you don't, you better, as it's definitely your flavor". Now this little story means very little. It DOES however tell me that even HE recognizes that the s18 speaks to the adventure crowd. This was all based on merely appearance, but honestly, even those of us trying to make guesses, are still relying on mostly appearance. Fwiw, my buddy is in this mid 30's and an avid disc golfer. Not quite of the business class crowd.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is preposterous [ref: so much emphasis on aesthetics over functionality on an enthusiast forum]. When two wheels have similar-enough specs and functionality, then I might make such a decision based on aesthetics. However these two wheels clearly have very different specs and potential strengths/use cases:

• The S18 may have slightly better suspension but with such a tiny battery that it's only usable short range and/or at slower speeds (because of the relation between speed and battery; and also KS's notorious overreporting of actual speed), and is likely the one someone might choose for primarily off-roading (lower speeds in general, and if the range is sufficient for how long they ride off-road at a time), or perhaps if they only ride low range/lower speed (although at that point then they're just paying for the suspension, because otherwise there are cheaper alternatives that hit those specs).
• The V11 is in the same battery ballpark as every other 1600Wh wheel (a ubiquitous larger-wheel size), while Kuji confirms the suspension makes it smoother than any other non-suspension 1600Wh wheel. This could be a primary wheel with potentially the best ride quality for someone wanting/needing that kind of range and/or who wants to sustain speeds in the upper 20s mph (again, because of the battery being able to sustain that, and also because KS overreports speeds so the V11 should easily sustain higher speeds).

Each of these wheels could potentially be the absolute best at their respective use case, and inferior to the other in the opposite use case. And ultimately anyone choosing one over the other based primarily on aesthetics but wherein their use case is the inverse is an absolute idiot.

Edited May 21, 2020 by AtlasP