King Song S18 Discussion

[Jon Stern]

14 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Holy shit thats some skills. Especially with the extra pedal height. Just watching this makes my knee hurt.  Woohoo.. on topic too!

It's all the wheel, not the rider. If you buy an S18, you'll be able to do this. Your smile will be brighter and ladies will want to know you too. 

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I just find it entertaining how 2 people can look at the exact same things and come to exact opposite conclusions.

I find that to be perfectly common for humans in general on several matters, some much more important/dangerous than others. But to even start mentioning them would be further off topic than even I’m willing to steer the thread... 

Btw, it’s been a lot more silent regarding new proper S18 (and V11) videos since the burst following the announcements. I wonder if (and hope that) they are expecting the review videos to fill the void quite soon. I do recall May being mentioned as either the shipping or receiving month for the demo units.

Now, how to pass time as we wait?? Personally, yesterday I bought 10mm thick foam rubber to slab on top of my pedals, to be covered with 40-grit sanding sheet of course. Yes, the pedals will no longer close up, but hopefully it will at least make the waiting period just a tiny bit easier. At least I tried...

Edited May 9, 2020 by mrelwood

[someguy152]

5 hours ago, fbhb said:

Now that we are back on topic, I'm just gonna leave this here:

 

probably not the right place to ask but

is there any video or description of  anyone else on this forum who can do this, even forwards. ive tried it forwards and it is bonkers hard.  i don't get how when the wheel is angled so its center of mass is pointing the same direction as the side the rider is on, it doesn't immediately tip over.

[SamSuffit]

Off topic on

@davinche@Rehab1 @travsformation @mrelwood @Patton250

Following the interesting discussion on EUC usage on this topic, I create a poll for everybody:

The more people answer, the more accurate it gets. Forum respondant will have bias so of course it is not perfect, but still better than pure speculation.

And yes youtube is not an accurate representation of real life.

Off topic off

[Espen R]

11 hours ago, Espen R said:

If I owned this wheel, I would limit it to 35kph, and I wouldn’t try to push it when it gets below 40%. My gripe with the current specs is that not everyone who buys this wheel would understand that. For those who do, great, you know what you get and can enjoy it for what it is, and for that it is probably an awesome wheel.

 

8 hours ago, Unventor said:

@Espen R I understand you are not happy about the S18. But my point on this is that is okey. But some people will be happy. It is still not near production ready. It has weeks to that. Might even be delayed.

Please take this in the best way you can. I don’t think this qualifies as communication.

8 hours ago, Unventor said:

Moaning about god of greed is not bringing any change to the design. 

But this line of posting made KS pull their Q&A thread. I am not saying you is the cause. But negative loaded questions and strong color language just made them retract interaction with community.

I can understand that you didn’t understand that the “god of greed” thing was meant in a humorous way when I first wrote it, but after I tried to explain it was meant as an overexaggerated joke, it is really hard for me, aka maddening, to understand the lack of your understanding.

You’re not saying that it is my fault KS pulled representative, but you pretty clearly imply that I am. That time I went to far with the representative I realized it and deeply regretted it thanks to this community, and I gave him a full honest apology, which he fully accepted. Is this the reason you imply that I’m the reason he left? Then there are the numerous times I’ve critiqued the S18 for having weird specs that puts it in a category of its own, and a 50kph speed limit combined with a battery size that can’t handle that safely for very long. Is that the reason? If so, then this is a community I don’t want to be a part of. You’re a moderator, you do know that, and you clearly imply that I’m the reason or part of the reason Kingsong pulled their representative. Based on what? Rational critique and overexaggerated humorous colourful language? If you lack the empathy to understand how that feels, read; The Trial by Kafka.

[mrelwood]

 

9 minutes ago, Espen R said:

I can understand that you didn’t understand that the “god of greed” thing was meant in a humorous way when I first wrote it, but after I tried to explain it was meant as an overexaggerated joke, it is really hard for me, aka maddening, to understand the lack of your understanding.

Try to remember that it is often difficult and sometimes impossible for us people from other countries and cultures to understand jokes, puns, word plays and figures of speech in a language that is foreign to us. It is likewise difficult to express ourselves in a way that would clearly translate the thought or purpose of our comments. Please try to give a little extra leeway when reading (into) posts on an international forum such as ours'.

9 minutes ago, Espen R said:

You’re not saying that it is my fault KS pulled representative, but you pretty clearly imply that I am.

@Unventor wrote "negative loaded questions and strong color language" as being the reason for KS to back out. I fail to see how it would point to you personally, as the way I saw it the tone of the Q&A was coloured like that by many people. And pulling out wasn't the representative's own decision, but an order from higher up at KS.

I'm not pretending to know whether or not Unventor thinks you were the sole reason for them to pull out, but I just wanted to say that to another Scandinavian person it didn't sound like he did.

[Espen R]

47 minutes ago, Espen R said:

But this line of posting made KS pull their Q&A thread. I am not saying you is the cause. But negative loaded questions and strong color language just made them retract interaction with community.

 

22 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I'm not pretending to know whether or not Unventor thinks you were the sole reason for them to pull out, but I just wanted to say that to another Scandinavian person it didn't sound like he did.

"But this line of posting mad KS pull their Q&A thread" A pretty clear implication, and I fail to see it otherwise. “I am not saying you is the cause. But negative loaded questions and strong color language just made them retract interaction with community” Again, how is this not and implication that I am part of the reason? Why would he put it in a reply to me if it wasn't?

22 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Try to remember that it is often difficult and sometimes impossible for us people from other countries and cultures to understand jokes, puns, word plays and figures of speech in a language that is foreign to us. It is likewise difficult to express ourselves in a way that would clearly translate the thought or purpose of our comments. Please try to give a little extra leeway when reading (into) posts on an international forum such as ours'.

I though I did that when I politely explained the humorous intention of the phrase, but when he uses it against me after I made the explanation, it felt a bit maddening. But I’ll try to be even more patient:)  

Edited May 9, 2020 by Espen R

[mrelwood]

3 minutes ago, Espen R said:

"But this line of posting mad KS pull their Q&A thread" A pretty clear implication, and I fail to see it otherwise. “I am not saying you is the cause. But negative loaded questions and strong color language just made them retract interaction with community” Again, how is this not and implication that I am part of the reason?

I see a big difference in being a sole reason or being a part of the reason. Or pointing out what kinds of posts probably were the reason. Nobody knows which questions affected the decision by which percentages, and to even have this discussion go this far seems completely pointless to me. What if Unventor thinks you are the sole cause, or part of the cause? So what? And what then?

Then we leave it behind us and concentrate on the next derailment from the actual topic! 

[Espen R]

29 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I see a big difference in being a sole reason or being a part of the reason.

I wrote both also in the first post.

 

30 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

What if Unventor thinks you are the sole cause, or part of the cause? So what? And what then?

I just think it is a fairly heavy implication from a moderator, and the line of reasoning to why he thinks they pulled out is nonsensical in the same way the reasons why K was put on trial in Kafka’s book is senseless. They left the community because of valid rational critique and colourful language? That is not a sane reason in my book. I would be flattered by the engagement and treated the critique as a pure gold source for ideas for how to make wheels for every part of the EUC community, which would mean more income for me, if I were a EUC manufacturer. The way I see it, the only one who have lost by pulling out is KS, and implications from a moderator that the community is the reason to why they did it, is quite absurd.    

[mrelwood]

 

9 minutes ago, Espen R said:

implications from a moderator that the community is the reason to why they did it, is quite absurd.    

KS said it themselves.

Now, can we be done with this subject?

[Espen R]

42 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 

KS said it themselves.

Now, can we be done with this subject?

Then let me rephrase; The implications from a moderator that sees the community’s critique and colourful language as a valid form of reasoning from KS to why they chose to leave, is quite absurd.

I’m sorry for the derail, but if the moderators here don’t see the reasons and value in opposing to a moderator forwarding a highly questionable form of reasoning from KS and use it to blame the community and individuals for being a community of human beings in all their different linguistic colour and form, then I fail to see a reason to be a part of it.

 

Now I’m done:)

[Dave Wood]

i use my wheel for both fun and commuting, but it's my only form of transportation so it's primary use is indeed commuting

[Unventor]

@Espen R no need to discuss my intention with other people. You have a clear PM from me. 

Please let's just get back to facts and topic of  the S18. 

I posted a above my views on pros and cons. Other riders will likely find others value and short comings.

But until we see final product we don't know much in general. Maybe some reviews will reveal a different story early.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Unventor

[SamSuffit]

7 minutes ago, Dave Wood said:

i use my wheel for both fun and commuting, but it's my only form of transportation so it's primary use is indeed commuting

Maybe you should go here for discussing it: 🙂

 

[davinche]

Personally I think it's KS's loss for pulling out of the community. Yes, some comments could have been interpreted as harsh (it could be a language thing). Other comments / criticism is downright incorrect / wrong. But I think that is the beauty of open discourse. It is up to the community to elevate each other in their understanding and enthusiasm about the particular subject/product. I see it as an opportunity for manufacturers to clear up misunderstandings, educate people, and to gather valuable feedback from their customers

This is why I have the utmost respect for Inmotion right now. They also received a fair amount of critique/questions from the community, but as far as I can tell they're still open to having that dialog. Akin to relationships between people, sometimes you need to allow yourself to be vulnerable in order to form a strong bond. I think Inmotion recognizes this which is why they continue to engage with the community.

At the end of the day, product-market fit is what matters. If the product KS produces does not fit what the market wants, then people won't buy their wheel. But how they get to product-market fit is their own decision. If they think they can achieve it without talking to their customers, then so be it. Sometimes customers don't know what they want until you show it to them (Apple is a great example with the iphone). But I would not place any blame on the community. As far as I can tell so far, the EUC community is just young and passionate.

 

[.....]

@davincheYou'll gain a lot of friends with the old people around here by citing the euc community as being young! ( I know what you meant j/k)

[Patton250]

10 hours ago, travsformation said:

Data is data, and as @davinche said, none has been produced. What's more, different people can come to different conclusion based on the same "data". For instance: 

You are suggesting that since 90% of Youtube EUC videos are of people using their wheels for fun, that's representative of overall wheel use, whereas I think it can be more nuanced: who uploads videos of their commute? Commuters are surely under-represented in Youtube (I'm just speculating). At the same time, you can use your wheel to commute every day (making commuting its primary use), then go for a leisure ride on the weekend, and that's the video you're going to upload; according to your rationale (I'm not attacking, just trying to infer based on what you said), that user is in it just for the fun, when in reality, the fun just makes up a small percentage of his EUC usage. That could lead to massive differences between perceived use and reality.
 

My points being 1) Youtube isn't a realistic, reliable source, 2) We're all just speculating (initially about the S18, now about EUC usage), 3) Why are we having this discussion and why does it matter? (Boredome, I know), 4) How did this tangent start in the first place? and 6) What day is today? This whole lockdown has messed up my brain... 

Edit: and 7), What the hell happened to point 5)?  Refer to point 6, I guess... 

 

If you would like to study YouTube for a couple of weeks and put together a hypothesis in a scientific way satisfactory to yourself go right ahead. All I know is I watch most of the YouTube videos on EUC‘s and none of them the topic is “how I use my EUC to get to work every day”. It’s always some cool dude ripping with the thing. This argument has become asinine. You could make the same argument with anything. I understand there are people on this forum that use these things to commute. Awesome. All the power to you. That still doesn’t and never will change the fact that you are in the extreme minority. Do you know I have seen people use dirt bikes as well as snowmobiles to commute to work. Do you think most people that own dirt bikes and snowmobiles purchase them to commute? Well that was a dumb question because according to you unless some sort of scientific data is put together you would assume nothing on that question. LOL :-)

Patton250, “ I went to Angelo’s restaurant last night and enjoyed the steak. Angelo tells me most people really enjoyed it.“

You,  “ How on earth would Angelo even know what percentage of people like his steak unless he took a proper Scientific poll and prequalified every patron before hand?“ 

 

Patton250 -Face palm so hard I break my nose  

 

 

[Patton250]

1 hour ago, davinche said:

Personally I think it's KS's loss for pulling out of the community. Yes, some comments could have been interpreted as harsh (it could be a language thing). Other comments / criticism is downright incorrect / wrong. But I think that is the beauty of open discourse. It is up to the community to elevate each other in their understanding and enthusiasm about the particular subject/product. I see it as an opportunity for manufacturers to clear up misunderstandings, educate people, and to gather valuable feedback from their customers

This is why I have the utmost respect for Inmotion right now. They also received a fair amount of critique/questions from the community, but as far as I can tell they're still open to having that dialog. Akin to relationships between people, sometimes you need to allow yourself to be vulnerable in order to form a strong bond. I think Inmotion recognizes this which is why they continue to engage with the community.

At the end of the day, product-market fit is what matters. If the product KS produces does not fit what the market wants, then people won't buy their wheel. But how they get to product-market fit is their own decision. If they think they can achieve it without talking to their customers, then so be it. Sometimes customers don't know what they want until you show it to them (Apple is a great example with the iphone). But I would not place any blame on the community. As far as I can tell so far, the EUC community is just young and passionate.

 

I can’t be certain without proper scientific data but I would be willing to bet a buffalo nickel they pulled out because of all the rude and harsh uncalled for comments by people that feel they know a hell of a lot more about EUC‘s then king song does. Now I could be wrong as I’m wrong a lot according to my wife but I would still bet that nickel.

[null]

@davinche Yes agreed, if they want to profit from community buzz / exposure they must also take the heat. Not that I approve of the unreasonably precise, negative or insisting questions of some here, but it was part of the risk.

An other aspect that made the thread and QA difficult IMO is that KS clearly took the occasion to steal some of Inmotions thunder, which sparked bad blood from there (both official and forum users)

Anyhow, one learn as long as one live.

Edited May 9, 2020 by null

[Patton250]

Guys I apologize for getting off subject on this thread. The only reason why I even came back to the forum this past couple weeks is to check on these two new EUC‘s. I guess I get tired of seeing people bitch all the time every time a new wheel comes out and then they complain to the manufactures as if they know how to build these things better. I’m relatively new to the hobby only three years in and every single wheel that comes out people here complain about it. Anyway that doesn’t give me the right to argue with them. I will back out of this thread and only come back to read legit updates on the S18. 

[stanislav777]

Finally it is ready to share, result of two weeks work printable model of S18 with working suspension. More information on  Youtube_link

 

[travsformation]

1 hour ago, Patton250 said:

 

If you would like to study YouTube for a couple of weeks and put together a hypothesis in a scientific way satisfactory to yourself go right ahead. All I know is I watch most of the YouTube videos on EUC‘s and none of them the topic is “how I use my EUC to get to work every day”. It’s always some cool dude ripping with the thing. This argument has become asinine. You could make the same argument with anything. I understand there are people on this forum that use these things to commute. Awesome. All the power to you. That still doesn’t and never will change the fact that you are in the extreme minority. Do you know I have seen people use dirt bikes as well as snowmobiles to commute to work. Do you think most people that own dirt bikes and snowmobiles purchase them to commute? Well that was a dumb question because according to you unless some sort of scientific data is put together you would assume nothing on that question. LOL :-)

Patton250, “ I went to Angelo’s restaurant last night and enjoyed the steak. Angelo tells me most people really enjoyed it.“

You,  “ How on earth would Angelo even know what percentage of people like his steak unless he took a proper Scientific poll and prequalified every patron before hand?“ 

Patton250 -Face palm so hard I break my nose  

Check out @SamSuffit's poll: still not too many participants, but current data already indicates that only 20% of users use their wheel for fun only. If you're interested, check it out. If you'd rather stick to your hypothesis without contrasting with other sources...whatever suits your fancy...

In any case, I don't plan on discussing any further with you. You keep over-simplifying others' statements, misconstruing their views (no big deal, we're all different), but more importantly, your overall attitude is condescending to the point it's disrespectful. The same discussions can be had with a more respectful approach that doesn't foster animosity or conflict. Other users have been annoyed by some of your mocking and haughty replies, have taken offence and replied with an inappropriate tone (and have been warned not to do so in the future), but you've actively contributed to that with your derisive comments, so I'd like to ask you to please dial down the tone, measure your words more carefully and discuss in a more polite and respectful manner (Please re-read some of your recent replies (including the one quoted above) and ask yourself if you'd liked to be talked to with that tone and how you'd react if someone else replied to you so haughtily). Written language can lead to misinterpretations. I'm sure you can find a way to express the same ideas in a way that is more conducive to an amicable discussion...

[davinche]

This is starting to feel like a "beating the dead horse" situation... but I'll give it one more go.

6 hours ago, Patton250 said:

If you would like to study YouTube for a couple of weeks and put together a hypothesis in a scientific way satisfactory to yourself go right ahead. All I know is I watch most of the YouTube videos on EUC‘s and none of them the topic is “how I use my EUC to get to work every day”. It’s always some cool dude ripping with the thing.

The problem that myself, @travsformation and @mrelwood have all said is that using YouTube statistics as a foundation for any generalized argument is pointless because YouTube does not represent the population in which you want to make said generalization from.

 

So to put it directly: Stop trying to use what you see on YouTube as an argument. Stop suggesting that people should study YouTube.

[.....]

6 hours ago, stanislav777 said:

Finally it is ready to share, result of two weeks work printable model of S18 with working suspension. More information on  Youtube_link

 

that thing sux, you didnt put enough batteries in it.        Really cool actually. So.... can we expect a new radical design with 3d mockup, headed for full scale production soon? Or will this be chalked up to an oddity that was provoked by excessive staying at home?

[redfoxdude]

6 hours ago, stanislav777 said:

Finally it is ready to share, result of two weeks work printable model of S18 with working suspension. More information on  Youtube_link

 

It's adorable! Very tempting indeed, ha!
I'm super eager to see reviews on these new suspension wheels soon. Scary encounters with potholes in the city are no fun, man. I really like the way the standard shock can be locked out when you want it stiff, and the dial for adjusting the response is super cool, so you don't need to be adjusting the air pressure when you want to change the feel/response.
My most common use is my ~16-17 mile commute (round trip, but hella hills), so I think the smaller battery would be fine. But I really like doing 30-40 mile rides on the weekends. And even more unfortunately, much of my rides are on hilly areas. We usually do a charging stop tho.
It's a very interesting trade off indeed. The lighter weight of the S18 would be really nice, since I live upstairs 😛 Perhaps fun for small adventures, which I suppose is what they intended. The spring-assisted jumps look super fun!

Edited May 9, 2020 by redfoxdude