King Song S18 Discussion

[.....]

1 hour ago, AtlasP said:

This is preposterous. When two wheels have similar-enough specs and functionality, then you might make such a decision based on aesthetics. However these two wheels clearly have very different specs and potential strengths/use cases:

• The S18 may have slightly better suspension but with such a tiny battery that it's only usable short range and/or at slower speeds (because of the relation between speed and battery; and also KS's notorious overreporting of actual speed), and is likely the one someone might choose for primarily off-roading (lower speeds in general, and if the range is sufficient for how long they ride off-road at a time), or perhaps if they only ride low range/lower speed (although at that point then they're just paying for the suspension, because otherwise there are cheaper alternatives that hit those specs).
• The V11 is in the same battery ballpark as every other 1600Wh wheel (a ubiquitous larger-wheel size), while the suspension makes it smoother than any other 1600Wh wheel. This could be a primary wheel with potentially the best ride quality for someone wanting/needing that kind of range and/or who wants to sustain speeds in the upper 20s mph (again, because of the battery being able to sustain that, and also because KS overreports speeds so the V11 should easily sustain higher speeds).

Each of these wheels could potentially be the absolute best at their respective use case, and inferior to the other in the opposite use case. And ultimately anyone choosing one over the other based primarily on aesthetics but wherein their use case is the inverse is an absolute idiot.

preposterous? The ONLY information he had was how it looked. I had already made a decision, this was merely a visual OPINION. Just as I stated, it 'speaks' to the adventure crowd. Its not silly to think that a lot of opinion IS based on visual aspects. Visually, he recognized it has a similar setup and open frame as a supermoto. I merely asked what he thought, based on a picture. Why does it have to be a bad thing? Neither of us made ANY assumptions beyond a mere preference in image. I have based my choice on other information.  I must be the ONLY person in the world that allows my eyes to create a bias, THEN as I learn more about it, I reevaluate it. To be fair, he had never even seen an euc before, so what do you think he was going to have an opinion on, as aesthetics is the only thing he knows. Batteries, power, range, all foreign to him. Geez, take your nuts out of the vice and breathe. Tiny battery, slow speeds  haha.  Just lke my 18L, fast enough to decimate a person on crash and long enough range to go 30 miles, 25 miles at tiltback speeds of 30/25mph.   I am constantly amazed at how someone who prefers one, openly bashes the other. This IS the s18 thread, not the 'i prefer the v11 and people are stupid if they dont agree" thread. Should i repost my little story, over on the v11 side too, so we can get more opinions on the simple fact that my friend thought the v11 looked cool, but the s18 looked badass? He's entitled to his opinion, and I cant argue, the v11 looks cool, the s18 looks badass. Kinda hard to argue visual opinions. Ask any man who's wife seems ugly to you, what he thinks... is he wrong, are you wrong? Who among us really knows that much about it anyhow? I do see a trend tho. People who prefer the v11 are pretty much against the s18. People who prefer the s18, still entertain that the v11 is nice too. And NONE of us really have a damn clue.

Edited May 20, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

@AtlasP

After almost 15 years of riding motorcycles (cross and race bike) I had no more desire and sold everything. I had not planned to start again. Beside cars and jet-ski freestyle there was no time for that anymore.

Some years later a buddy comes to visit me with his new Buell. Wow, it looked great and the sound. The next day I bought a Buell and have it in the house until today (20 years), first in the living room, now in the entrance area. Hardly driven with it and stands around motionless for 6 years. To be honest, it also rides like shit, I knew that. But I didn't care, she looked awesome and sounds mega awesome with the illegal exhaust. Isn't that enough?   

[Stillhart]

2 hours ago, AtlasP said:

This is preposterous. ...  anyone choosing one over the other based primarily on aesthetics but wherein their use case is the inverse is an absolute idiot.

Yikes.  I knew there was a reason I stepped out of this (and the V11) thread.  Hopefully Kuji posts more on reddit so I can avoid these threads some more.  :-D

[.....]

11 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

Yikes.  I knew there was a reason I stepped out of this (and the V11) thread.  Hopefully Kuji posts more on reddit so I can avoid these threads some more.  :-D

for mine and everyone else's benefit, I shall do the same.. Wise move!

[AtlasP]

1 hour ago, buell47 said:

Wow, it looked great and the sound. The next day I bought a Buell and have it in the house until today (20 years), first in the living room, now in the entrance area. Hardly driven with it and stands around motionless for 6 years. To be honest, it also rides like shit, I knew that.

*chuckles* I'm not sure if you're arguing for me or against me, but either way your anecdote is illustrative of my point. :-)

[Jpd]

1 hour ago, Stillhart said:

Yikes.  I knew there was a reason I stepped out of this (and the V11) thread.  Hopefully Kuji posts more on reddit so I can avoid these threads some more.  :-D

Yeah a few of these threads have really started to suck! Everything is a debate and everyone is all of a sudden a suspension expert 🤮

[mrelwood]

Despite my motorcycle fever lasting for many years, actually getting one never came into fruition. But I have ridden a few for a bit, and drooled over videos for hours on end. For me “motorcycles” and “adventure” sum up to something quite different than a supermoto. I’m thinking Transalp, Varadero, KLE, etc, which are the ones I had on my compare list.

 But the supermoto aspect of the S18 is clearly visible, and I can see how it speaks loudly to that crowd. But the aesthetics didn’t speak to me, at all. At least not in a nice way.

8 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

People who prefer the v11 are pretty much against the s18. People who prefer the s18, still entertain that the v11 is nice too.

Really? Sorry but that sounds like a comment from someone who has chosen the S18... The last several pages on the V11 thread are all about bashing the “clearly inferior” suspension of the V11, based on traditional race car suspension dynamics, and disregarding all actual clues we have been shown on video.

 I’m satisfied with being able to choose the one that is a better fit for me. But I do take issue wheel people label either or any wheel as inferior, superior, the best of all times, or the worst ever, etc based on wild theories that don’t hold any water from the get go.

 It does seem that purely visual buyers will buy more S18 than V11. Remains to be seen how big that crowd was in a year or so.

8 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

And NONE of us really have a damn clue.

We do have a few clues, but that indeed is where it ends.

[travsformation]

16 hours ago, Stillhart said:

Yikes.  I knew there was a reason I stepped out of this (and the V11) thread.  Hopefully Kuji posts more on reddit so I can avoid these threads some more.  :-D

Lucky b*stard....! I'm inclined to step out to, and only check it once in a while, but have to do so from time to time to make sure no death threats are being issued 

17 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Ask any man who's wife seems ugly to you, what he thinks... 

And I thought discussing V11 and S18 was a dangerous endeavor...you're bringing this to a whole new level of peril  

 

[travsformation]

On 5/20/2020 at 8:06 AM, Unventor said:

That could be a long wait. But I were in the same boat sitting out 1st gen suspension versions. But then I got persuaded and now I am very much looking forward to my V11. 

I can wait. 3" tires and awesome torque are already a great upgrade for me. No hurry...just sore knees 

[B08AH]

10 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The last several pages on the V11 thread are all about bashing the “clearly inferior” suspension of the V11

Given that current baseline is "no suspension", the word inferior barely applies.

It is just that S18 suspension is "even better". It will be easier to tune it up for comfort without letting it bottom out. 

10 hours ago, mrelwood said:

It does seem that purely visual buyers will buy more S18 than V11

As far as I know 18L was one of the top sellers. S18 is 18L on steroids, it is bound to succeed.

While V11 is 27kg. No way EUC this heavy can be nearly as successful.

 

PS i just hope KS did not lie about its weight.

Edited May 21, 2020 by B08AH

[Jon Stern]

On 5/21/2020 at 9:31 AM, B08AH said:

And given that current baseline is "no suspension", the word inferior barely applies.

It is just that S18 suspension is "even better". It will be easier to tune it up for comfort without letting it bottom out. 

This is what I was thinking. The question is whether each wheel offers a superior ride to all the current no-suspension wheels. If these two wheels were identical in all regards apart from the suspension, then this debate would be valid. But they're not.

I suppose this is just how people are on the internet. Take any forum which relates to things people buy or aspire to buy (cars, cameras, probably even kitchen knives, etc.) and you'll see the same kind of debates.

This comes to mind: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-choice/201506/satisficing-vs-maximizing

"Satisficers are individuals who are pleased to settle for a good enough option, not necessarily the very best outcome in all respects. A satisficer is less likely to experience regret, even if a better option presents itself after a decision has already been made. Compared to satisficers, maximizers are more likely to experience lower levels of happiness, regret, and self-esteem."

We should aim to be satisficers (if we are interested in our personal happiness, that is).

Edited May 24, 2020 by Jon Stern

[someguy152]

17 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

Compared to satisficers, maximizers are more likely to experience lower levels of happiness, regret, and self-esteem."

don't you mean higher levels of regret?

[AtlasP]

3 hours ago, B08AH said:

While V11 is 27kg. No way EUC this heavy can be nearly as successful.

To quote myself:

"The V11 is about the same weight as several of the Nikola+ SKUs. (My Nik+ is within 2 pounds of the advertised V11 weight.) Now yes the Nik+ is heavy, but that hasn't seemed to put a damper on the amount of positive coverage/endorsement it continues to get, especially from several of the top youtubers (including Marty and Mickey). So either someone believes that both the Nik+ and the V11 are too heavy (which is a fair decision based on your context), or else neither of them are, but the V11 is not some new weight category (which some people keep making it out to be)."

[mike_bike_kite]

9 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

but the V11 is not some new weight category (which some people keep making it out to be).

The Nik+ offers high speed and a very large battery capacity. The V11 doesn't. It's just a very heavy wheel for what it offers.

[AtlasP]

23 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

The Nik+ offers high speed and a very large battery capacity. The V11 doesn't. It's just a very heavy wheel for what it offers.

 

 

It's just a trade-off. The V11 trades a bit of the Nik+'s top speed (~5mph) and range for a much smoother ride (even with his hesitancy to post conclusions, Kuji has already commented that both the S18 and V11 have smoother rides than any non-suspension wheel). If you're utilizing the highest speeds and furthest ranges of the Nik+, then the V11 would be worse in those regards. But if you have a Nik+ (or equiv) but don't quite utilize its highest speed and furthest range and/or only do so rarely, the V11 would be trading those bits at the top end which you're not using (or only using sometimes/occasionally) for a smoother ride all the time. And one could make a similar comparison of the tradeoff for example for an 18XL user (more weight and little bit less range for suspension and bit higher top speed) or other wheels.

Again it all comes down to use-case; I know people who fall into either one of those cases who would make a different conclusion/purchasing decision as a result.

Edited May 22, 2020 by AtlasP

[Jon Stern]

3 hours ago, someguy152 said:

don't you mean higher levels of regret?

Yes, I didn't write that sentence. It's badly written.

[B08AH]

1 hour ago, AtlasP said:

But if you have a Nik+ (or equiv) but don't quite utilize its highest speed and furthest range

Then you might choose Nikola 1600 which is lighter.

I see your point, suspension has to add some weight and cost. But there is a limit on how much a person can lift and no amount of vtube endorsements can persuade otherwise. And most people are not powerlifters, therefore weight is a very limiting factor.

I personally owned a Z10 and it was too heavy for me, and 16X is borderline tolerable.

Edited May 21, 2020 by B08AH

[Unventor]

38 minutes ago, B08AH said:

I personally owned a Z10 and it was too heavy for me, and 16X is borderline tolerable.

Well that is alright. But that is not the same for everyone. 

I have no issue with the weight. And we still see 22" GW wheels being talked about as their best wheel. Weight is not mentioned either for those people. 

Now that is not the same that all feel the same way. Far from it. Personally I think it is great there are options for all personal choices. Diversity is a good thing imho. 

[B08AH]

23 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Well that is alright. But that is not the same for everyone. 

Yes, most people can't lift even that.

[Unventor]

25 minutes ago, B08AH said:

Yes, most people can't lift even that.

Sure they can. And point is you ride it not lifting it. Worse case you trolley or lift it a few steps. 

After a few times you get use to it. 

[UniVehje]

Anybody know if the S18 is still shipping in time? And as promised in the middle of June? I might get one but need to be sure it comes before july 10th. 

Edited May 23, 2020 by UniVehje

[mike_bike_kite]

On 5/21/2020 at 11:12 PM, Unventor said:

I have no issue with the weight.

Do you mean that you never have to lift a wheel or do you mean you'd have no problem lifting a 24Kg up a few flights of stairs? 

[fbhb]

6 hours ago, UniVehje said:

Anybody know if the S18 is still shipping in time? And as promised in the middle of June? I might get one but need to be sure it comes before july 10th.

IMHO, I would say the S18 will very likely be delayed owing to the fact that so far we have only seen the prototypes in demo videos.  Kuji has stated that he was also waiting for the "Production" S18 to form his final thoughts/compile video and also to compare directly against the V11 at the same time. 

He does not have the "Final" version in his possession as yet, (he had hoped it would have been Mid May/similar time as receiving the V11), so on that basis I would imagine that King Song are still working to finalise the "Production" version! 

Personally, I am hoping that they take all the time they need to make sure there is No repeat of the 16X rollout (even though I desperately want one right NOW!!!)

Edited May 23, 2020 by fbhb

[fbhb]

Maybe my previous post was not quite right, regarding the S18 being delayed!

King Song just teased this image on Facebook:

 

[Patton250]

1 hour ago, fbhb said:

Maybe my previous post was not quite right, regarding the S18 being delayed!

King Song just teased this image on Facebook:

 

Which Facebook page? It’s not on their international Facebook page. At least I can’t find it.