King Song S18 Discussion

[wheel-life]

Considering S18 is seen as more of an "xtreme" EUC, I would think you might actually want to go with Mountain Dew aluminum @Bridgeboy

 

(sorry... I know, not helping!)

[AtlasP]

I smell InMotion's next marketing campaign: 

InMotion: no Coke cans required.

(Joking aside, that's below-Gotway-level consumer response.)

[Rehab1]

6 hours ago, Bridgeboy said:

Seriously?! @Jack King Song, I appreciate the feedback, I really do; but you just told me to effectively "stuff a couple of coke cans in it" to solve the problem of a misaligned wheel straight from the factory that I just paid $1,900 for.

 

[mrelwood]

On 9/7/2020 at 4:21 AM, Elliott Reitz said:

Well for short off ride intense (for me anyway) rides like I enjoy, the S18 rocks over my old MSX.  Thanks to its now dialed in suspension, I can almost keep up with my dog Loki. 
 

What a nice and well behaving dog!

Though I must say, if I didn’t know better, I wouldn’t have guessed that you’re riding with a suspension. I’m sure it can be improved a lot still.

 

15 hours ago, Mark Wilson said:

Sorry for the obvious question, but what exactly is a wheel cutoff?

As @UniVehje explained, the terms are used quite loosely. Cut-off / cut-out happens for example when an overlean goes far enough. At 30-45 degrees forward tilt (depending on the wheel model) the wheel considers the situation as a fall and cuts off the power to the motor.

15 hours ago, Mark Wilson said:

As I understand it now, a cutoff means that the rider asks too much from the wheel and it can't provide enough power to keep itself level but it still provides as much power as it can in trying to stay level.

What you (perfectly) described is an overlean, before the cut-off angle has been reached.

 

14 hours ago, Bridgeboy said:

 

 

It can be seen clearly from the two photos above that the wheel is indeed way off center compared to the shell. @FinRider has or had the same issue. Don’t know if he got / was able to fix it yet.

[Feynman]

12 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

You'll have to tag me in the issue, I cant follow along this thread. 
However as a 90kg rider if I'm riding the S18 I don't push it's limits and I'm not trying to over torque the wheel. As with any self balancing device it's important to respect it's limits. 
Not saying there couldnt be issues with components...

I'm a 120kg rider that rides the S18... well, I did ride it until I took it apart to fix the suspension 

[Tinkererboi]

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

It can be seen clearly from the two photos above that the wheel is indeed way off center compared to the shell. @FinRider has or had the same issue. Don’t know if he got / was able to fix it yet.

Would like to chip in and add that I have been experimenting with shimming one side of the pedal hangers for 500km and counting. So far so good. 

 

[Elliott Reitz]

14 hours ago, mrelwood said:

What a nice and well behaving dog!

Though I must say, if I didn’t know better, I wouldn’t have guessed that you’re riding with a suspension. I’m sure it can be improved a lot still.

...

It can be seen clearly from the two photos above that the wheel is indeed way off center compared to the shell. @FinRider has or had the same issue. Don’t know if he got / was able to fix it yet.

Thanks, Loki is great.  Yes an S18 with a K262 on it.

My wheel isn't centered between the fender parts either.

8 hours ago, Tinkererboi said:

Would like to chip in and add that I have been experimenting with shimming one side of the pedal hangers for 500km and counting. So far so good. 

I've been wondering about the size of the spacers and if maybe one is missing from the right side (facing fwd).  If so it might explain some of the over-stiffness in the suspension (easy to feel w/o shock attached at one side).

Edited September 9, 2020 by Elliott Reitz
+pic

[Elliott Reitz]

Hmmm it's cockeyed from the rear too!

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Elliott Reitz

[iwheelroll]

I just got my S18 but it looks like the block that needs to be removed isn't removable anymore. Is it just mine or yours are different? It's now in one piece.

[Seba]

I just got newest datasheet of LG INR21700-M50T (cell used in V11 and S18 batteries). Looks like LG has made some changes to the manufacturing technology in 2018, because there are changes of max discharge current. According to newer datasheet, max cont`d discharge current is specified at:

• 2.4 A per cell below 10°C which translates to 7.2 A (S18) and 9.6 A (V11) per battery
• 14.5 A per cell between 10 and 25 °C which translates to 43.5 A (S18) and 58 A (V11) per battery
• 7.3 A per cell above 25°C which translates to 21.9 A (S18) and 29.2 A (V11) per battery

Because of internal battery resistance (0.025 Ohm in real tests), there will be a voltage sag that is current-dependent. In case of S18 battery this resistance will be something about 0.17 Ohm, while in case of V11 it will be about 0.13 Ohm. This means that S18 battery sag at 2000 W load will be something about 4.8 V, while V11 battery voltage sag at the same load will be about 3.5 V. Additionally, there will be sag caused by resistance of some circuits and wiring.

[Chriull]

15 minutes ago, Seba said:

7.3 A per cell above 25°C which translates to 21.9 A (S18) and 29.2 A (V11) per battery

As this should be the main use case (battery heating up to above 25°C) they seem to be a bad design choice. Even if used in 6p configs...

[Beachboy]

Hei guys, 

how do you pump the suspension without valve extention? I have been following KS instruction to press hard the wheel then using that provided block, but when I pump it before even 100psi the pump got really heavy and cant pump it more, this happens on both chambers/valves.. 

I think i can pump it to 180psi if the block is gone but there is no way I could slipped that hose into the valve

[RockyTop]

5 minutes ago, Beachboy said:

Hei guys, 

how do you pump the suspension without valve extention? I have been following KS instruction to press hard the wheel then using that provided block, but when I pump it before even 100psi the pump got really heavy and cant pump it more, this happens on both chambers/valves.. 

I think i can pump it to 180psi if the block is gone but there is no way I could slipped that hose into the valve

I have not had that problem. I have pumped it up three different ways. I was able to easily get the pressure above 220

1) with the block ( go a little higher on the pressure) 230 for me. 

2 ) without the block. ( wedge in between- will likely damage the pump after doing this a few times) 210 

3) valve extension ( Lost too much air removing pump) 
 

[Feynman]

1 hour ago, Beachboy said:

Hei guys, 

how do you pump the suspension without valve extention? I have been following KS instruction to press hard the wheel then using that provided block, but when I pump it before even 100psi the pump got really heavy and cant pump it more, this happens on both chambers/valves.. 

I think i can pump it to 180psi if the block is gone but there is no way I could slipped that hose into the valve

It feels like there is some potential "hump" around the last 1-2 inches of the stroke you have to get over at higher psi before the included pump pushes air.  Are you sure you can't?  Push really hard on the pump towards the end of the stroke.

[eve]

@Seba If i want to ride in winter. Under 5 Celsius. Sherman would be the best wheel for that right? With the 18650 batteries?

Actually is it even safe to ride V11 or S18 under 5 Celcius? 

Edited September 9, 2020 by eve

[Seba]

4 minutes ago, eve said:

@Seba If i want to ride in winter. Under 5 Celsius. Sherman would be the best wheel for that right? With the 18650 batteries?

Actually is it even safe to ride V11 or S18 under 5 Celcius? 

Well, general rule is not to let the battery to cool down below 10 °C and it applies to all EUCs. This is why general recomendation for winter rides is to keep EUC in a warm room before you go riding outside. As long as you're riding, battery will heat up and keep well above ambient temp due to internal losses.

[eve]

29 minutes ago, Seba said:

Well, general rule is not to let the battery to cool down below 10 °C and it applies to all EUCs. This is why general recomendation for winter rides is to keep EUC in a warm room before you go riding outside. As long as you're riding, battery will heat up and keep well above ambient temp due to internal losses.

Atleast there is some plus to the inefficiency of batteries. 

So my apartment is usually 22 °C. So as long as i go outside and keep riding the battery should be warm enough to not fall below 10 °C? Do EUC measure battery temperature or is it just the control board temperature? 

I seen some post where you said that 18650 batteries perform much better at lower temperature. Thats why i asked if a Sherman would be a better winter wheel then for example S18/V11.

One last question: Batteries usually lose capacity during winter right? This is not a permanent thing right? They should perform similarly after the weather gets warmer all things considered?

Thanks for all the info Seba.

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by eve

[FinRider]

1 hour ago, eve said:

One last question: Batteries usually lose capacity during winter right? This is not a permanent thing right? They should perform similarly after the weather gets warmer all things considered?

Yes, it should be only temporary. For example, in my plugin hybrid outlander car, i get 50 km on a full charge in the summer and 20km in the winter..

[Paradox]

 

[Issah]

I canceled my pre-order for this wheel back in July. But today, I got a mail from the seller that it had been packed and was ready for shipping. Now, I can't decide if I'm just gonna take the wheel anyway and see how it goes. I know the wheels has issues, but tbh I'm kinda torn.

[Beachboy]

9 hours ago, RockyTop said:

I have not had that problem. I have pumped it up three different ways. I was able to easily get the pressure above 220

1) with the block ( go a little higher on the pressure) 230 for me. 

2 ) without the block. ( wedge in between- will likely damage the pump after doing this a few times) 210 

3) valve extension ( Lost too much air removing pump) 
 

 

7 hours ago, Feynman said:

It feels like there is some potential "hump" around the last 1-2 inches of the stroke you have to get over at higher psi before the included pump pushes air.  Are you sure you can't?  Push really hard on the pump towards the end of the stroke.

Okay this is stupid, I used the thickest handle setting for pumping, this setting allows a lot of air pushed into the suspension in one stroke which way too much to handle with your hands after couple of pumping.

also I just contact KS for some bolt & bushings, then discuss some problem with my wheel like the steel pedal base/battery case and was told that the these part easily broken so they will send me a set of replacement, it seems they were evaluating all the issues and sending out all necessary parts for replacement.

so here some issues I have

1. bad battery case, the bolt that hold the battery are not locking properly

2. damage bushing and bolts in the suspension arms

3. Noise coming from the motor which they said was caused by bad bearings

4. trolley handle didnt lock on its lowest position, this is not a problem they said its deliberately made like so that peoples with large hands could pull the handle easier

5. Suspension arms rubbing the fender

6. I broke the right pad to access hidden bolt near rear light (probably i have to pay for this one)

I am glad they still listening all of these issues and quitely fixing it all, also thanks to Eileen of Kingsong for helping me out.

[.....]

4 hours ago, Issah said:

I canceled my pre-order for this wheel back in July. But today, I got a mail from the seller that it had been packed and was ready for shipping. Now, I can't decide if I'm just gonna take the wheel anyway and see how it goes. I know the wheels has issues, but tbh I'm kinda torn.

don't do it......   no harm in waiting for a bit, IF you have a wheel already . Reread all the pages and recall why you choose to cancel. The lure of a new toy can be greater than reality sometimes....  I just keep seeing people having to rebuild numerous things, yet are trying to shrug it off so they arent upset at the $$ they spent. Suspensions that are tough to set. Bushings that fail and rub. tire clearance issue. Bolts missing, alignment problems. Shims needing replaced or adjusted. Locksong app in general? The list grows longer each week. Personally, Im a bit over the entrie Locksong brand altogether. I'll take previous offerings, but im too damn leery about them since i got exposed to the newest thing.

Edited September 10, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Seba]

9 hours ago, eve said:

I seen some post where you said that 18650 batteries perform much better at lower temperature. Thats why i asked if a Sherman would be a better winter wheel then for example S18/V11.

For sure Sherman battery will excel in all conditions just because there is more paralell strings of cells, so cells won't be stressed even under heavy load. Also Sherman does have a tire tread that is more suitable to winter, snowy conditions.

9 hours ago, eve said:

One last question: Batteries usually lose capacity during winter right? This is not a permanent thing right? They should perform similarly after the weather gets warmer all things considered?

Li-Ion battery capacity is temperature dependent, so it's not a real loss. When battery is warmer, its capacity rises. Usually battery capacity is stated for 25 °C. Each degree less means about one percent of capacity less. But if you warm up your battery, it can hold even more that its nominal capacity states. This is why charging to full in elevated temperatures and then leaving battery in this state for longer time is not recommended.

This is why in winter EUC range is noticeably smaller than in warmer months. First, the battery will have smaller capacity and higher internal resistance (which means more enegry losses). Second, riding in winter means higher air drag to overcome at the same speed - in winter we wear more clothes which increase frontal area, also cold air is denser. Third, tire rolling resistance will be higher when riding on snow or slush.

[Meulebeest]

On 9/7/2020 at 9:41 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

Wheel stops working instantly. E.g. board dies mid-ride. Happens extremely rarely.

That would be an overlean, and some people claim they can recover from one.

I believe you can spot one "Cut off" (and recovery), on this video of @EcoDrift (on the 5:15 mark):

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Meulebeest

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, Meulebeest said:

I believe you can spot one "Cut off" (and recovery), on this video of @EcoDrift (on the 5:15 mark):

 

Did they ever clarify what went on there? Sudden pedal dipping? Firmware bug? Was that at top speed?

Looks like an overlean-like situation to me. I'd guess with the distance he covered while it happened he would have been on the ground already in a cut-off.

But in the end it's just a semantic question. Overlean or cut-off, we don't want either to happen