INMOTION V11 (2020)

[B08AH]

Few things I noticed in Kuji's review. Everything is just my opinion, not going to pretend I am a "suspension expert" of any sort. And  I could miss something of course.

First - it has single-chamber shock vs dual chamber in S18. If you want to make it softer, you also lower its pedals. You might end up with a choice between 1. too stiff and 2. clipping terrain with pedals. And I suspect this will be  more noticeable for heavy 100kg+ riders like me.

I had similar choice with 16 by 2.1 tire - more pressure - it goes too hard on my knees, no absorption at all, and also gets all supersensitive even wobbly, less pressure - it snake-bites the rim. No middle ground. 16x3 is a godsend compared to that.

Second drawback of V11 -  it launches you a bit on bumps. It happens several times in the video. Ladder, big jump, also in actual offroad episode, you can see it if you pay attention. It does not launch that high, can't be seen on individual frames, but it is clearly noticeable in motion (pun intended). And one frame actually does displays this effect(attached).

I did not see that "launch" effect in S18 videos. Kuji's feet are always firmly attached to the pedals.

 

And last, not from this video review, from official answers - shock has proprietary design, so you can't swap it for something better.

 

PS neither of those points should be a dealbreaker flaws. Just had to mention. To balance those overly positive impressions above.

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by B08AH

[Nic]

8 minutes ago, B08AH said:

Few things I noticed in Kuji's review. Everything is just my opinion, not going to pretend I am a "suspension expert" of any sort. And  I could miss something of course.

First - it has single-chamber shock vs dual chamber in S18. If you want to make it softer, you also lower its pedals. You might end up with a choice between 1. too stiff and 2. clipping terrain with pedals. And I suspect this will be  more noticeable for heavy 100kg+ riders like me.

I had it with 16 by 2.1 tire - more pressure - it goes too hard on my knees, and also gets all supersensitive even wobbly, less pressure - it snake-bites the rim. No middle ground. 16x3 is a godsend compared to that.

Second drawback of single chamber - there is an uncontrollable expansion effect. When you hit a bump it compresses, and after the bump it expands so hard it launches you a bit. It happens several times in the video. Ladder, big jump, also in actual offroad episode, you can see it if you pay attention. It does not launch that much, can't be seen on individual frames, but it is clearly noticeable in motion (pun intended). And one frame actually does displays this effect(attached).

As for dual chamber shock - one of the chambers expands while compressing the opposite chamber, so it starts fast and then slows down on its way to neutral position.

I did not see that "launch" effect in S18 videos. Kuji's feet are always firmly attached to the pedals.

 

And last, not from this video review, from official answers - shock has proprietary design, so you can't swap it for something better.

 

PS neither of those points should be a dealbreaker flaws. Just had to mention. To balance those overly positive impressions above.

 

You might as well point out all the flaws in EUC's without suspension ... those things are now obsolete.  ... Ok, maybe not obsolete, but less desirable now.

[AtlasP]

16 minutes ago, B08AH said:

I had it with 16 by 2.1 tire - more pressure - it goes too hard on my knees, and also gets all supersensitive even wobbly, less pressure - it snake-bites the rim. No middle ground. 16x3 is a godsend compared to that.

The V11 has an 18 x 3 tire.

If someone has such basic stats wrong, which we've known for absolutely ages with zero question about them, that makes any other conjecture by them extremely suspect.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

 Oh man this wheel hits all the sweet spots!  Finally suspension!  Decent headlight lens and integrated kickstand?  Woot woot!  

[Knut]

3 hours ago, B08AH said:

Few things I noticed in Kuji's review. Everything is just my opinion, not going to pretend I am a "suspension expert" of any sort. And  I could miss something of course.

First - it has single-chamber shock vs dual chamber in S18. If you want to make it softer, you also lower its pedals. You might end up with a choice between 1. too stiff and 2. clipping terrain with pedals. And I suspect this will be  more noticeable for heavy 100kg+ riders like me.

 

Interesting remark, thanks.

3 hours ago, AtlasP said:

The V11 has an 18 x 3 tire.

If someone has such basic stats wrong, which we've known for absolutely ages with zero question about them, that makes any other conjecture by them extremely suspect.

LoL

I'm sure B08AH knows the tire size.

[redfoxdude]

4 hours ago, AtlasP said:

The V11 has an 18 x 3 tire.

If someone has such basic stats wrong, which we've known for absolutely ages with zero question about them, that makes any other conjecture by them extremely suspect.

I didn't interpret the comments about 16 inch tires this way... It was just an anecdote about a challenge for heavier riders, and a pondering on whether a similar experience might be seen in adjusting the suspension pressure. Anyways, I had similar observations when I watched the "group ride" video with riders going down stairs on the V11, I could see some of their feet bouncing off the pedals a bit more than others. Probably their suspension pressure was higher.

Really cool that these new suspension wheels took such different approaches, I think they both will be great, for different reasons! InMotion's inspiration from BMW is pretty neat. I really appreciate their attention to detail!

[mrelwood]

Since were back in the topic of judging and comparing the suspensions based on YouTube videos... 

On Kuji’s video the suspension doesn’t seem to function nearly as smooth as it does in every other V11 video. It has kept me thinking.

 One explanation could be that he uses more pressure on the suspension from the get go because he doesn’t like the detached feeling that the guys in the other videos were riding with. Or he thinks the ground clearance got too low.

 Another explanation could be in the knees, since the suspension works largely in harmony with the rider’s knees. If the other videos show guys riding calmly with locked knees, all energy from the bumps goes to the suspension. If Kuji rides with soft knees, like any rider anywhere near his skills or riding style has been forced to up until now, his knees react faster to the bumps than the suspension does, making the suspension feel harder than optimal.

 Or the suspension is designed with much easier riding style in mind, making it slow to react for the most fire headed rider in the world that Kuji obviously is.

 Or a direct drive air suspension doesn’t have the same level of progressiveness that a linkage system does, and would bottom out too easily if adjusted to the same comfort level.

 Or any combination of those. In any case, like with anything else EUC, we will definitely hear opposing opinions on which suspension works better. There are just so incredibly many different riding styles, and obviously also ideas of an optimal suspension behavior.

 And before anyone mentions race cars as a proof to trump the last point... EUCs are not race cars. People have differing opinions on what kind of suspension is the most comfortable and what a good quality ride is like on a passenger car. Some think BMW, while I for example dislike the suspension way too much in all BMWs I’ve been in to call it a good quality ride for myself.

[stephen]

In the case of Euc suspension it's just going to make a ride smoother and take most of the impact and not jolt you into the air (as much) 

even mountain bikes with the twin suspension  there hands are still holding on and shaking all over ,it will smooth out the ride but will never eliminate everything , those  speed bumps in Kujis  video they would have you in the air if it didn't have suspension especially at those speeds , for only leaving the pedals an inch is very expressive tbh

I want to ride the v11 like a normal Euc and just have the suspension when I really need it or when I hit that unexpected bump I still want to use a normal riding stance i wouldn't want an euc where I just have to stand upright and the wheel did everything 

Them pedals are huge though tight carving might be a problem maybe but overall I'm impressed 👍 well done Inmotion 👍

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by stephen

[Unventor]

8 hours ago, B08AH said:

And last, not from this video review, from official answers - shock has proprietary design, so you can't swap it for something better.

 

PS neither of those points should be a dealbreaker flaws. Just had to mention. To balance those overly positive impressions above.

It is fine if you don't want to buy the V11. It just means someone else gets to enjoy it. I am pretty sure the V11 will appeal to others.

We all have thing we would like to have in a new wheel and this changes as your ride habit adapt to what is possible to do.

Now the biggest invitation so far the past years is suspension. It solves or helps something's but it is not that it is a mush for all. And yes there are room for improvement too.

Now you might not be excited about this but I sure am and you can not control that at all. 

Now you can argue system wise which is better. But it is has to do with impact on design too. Some like V11 some like S18 and don't like any. Question how this will shift once you ride a wheel and compare it.

But the way I use my current wheels, the V11 is 99% spot on to what I have been missing and yet not giving up too much to get that. The S18 doesn't even come close to that at all. Not on paper and not on what they have said they focused on.

If that is why I come across "as overly positive"# so be it. I am pretty stoked to be in the queue to get a V11. And I expect to be very happy about it. There will be a new thing to learn and that is to how suspension reacts to avoid pedel striking ground. But since I in general don't ride with my head up my a...doing stupid stuff I think it will be all right. 

Now Kuji didn't go too much into which he liked the most but his ride style and how he pushes it he needs padding to do this. IM are looking into solutions. But I general don't grab my wheel and don't do really super hard core non-road rides either. But one thing that has burned into my attention is "it (V11) rides very predictable". 

I would if he had the KS16X  S18 or V10f in mind for that comment. 

[Unventor]

3 hours ago, redfoxdude said:

Really cool that these new suspension wheels took such different approaches, I think they both will be great, for different reasons! InMotion's inspiration from BMW is pretty neat. I really appreciate their attention to detail!

KS had to. Their first system got a court order for change (and a heavy fine) as they copied too much of IMs design. 

As for inspiration I think it is really great that IM are sharing thoughts why and what and to some degree how they achieve things with the V11 choices of design. It will show that they could have chosen differently but they made a choice based on what they want to achieve.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

9 hours ago, AtlasP said:

The V11 has an 18 x 3 tire.

If someone has such basic stats wrong, which we've known for absolutely ages with zero question about them, that makes any other conjecture by them extremely suspect.

If someone reacts so extremely with a shock absorber comparison between V11 and S18 because someone subjectively falls in favour of the S18 and does not understand a simple example (16 by 2.1 vs.16x3) because of all the emotions, that makes any other conjecture by them extremely suspect.

Calm down, nobody will keep you away from buying a V11!

This eternal fight V11 vs S18 is really cruel.

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by buell47

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

KS had to. Their first system got a court order for change (and a heavy fine) as they copied too much of IMs design.

Is this just anecdotal or is there some actual proof that this really happened?

 

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Since were back in the topic of judging and comparing the suspensions based on YouTube videos... 

On Kuji’s video the suspension doesn’t seem to function nearly as smooth as it does in every other V11 video. It has kept me thinking.

 One explanation could be that he uses more pressure on the suspension from the get go because he doesn’t like the detached feeling that the guys in the other videos were riding with. Or he thinks the ground clearance got too low.

The V11 is a great wheel - great lights, great design, decent motor, reasonable range, waterproofing etc. But somehow you don't seem to accept the basic physics that dictates that the suspension won't be as good as the S18. Kuji rode both wheels and his comments in the V11 video were "the shocks feel a little bit choppy", "the suspension works wellish" and "Inmotion's suspension is definitely inferior to a design where the tyre moves independently. It's just not as responsive". You have to remember that the other V11 videos you mention are marketing videos put out by Inmotion. 

Perhaps, most telling was when Kuji came to a kerb. He stopped and lifted the wheel onto the pavement! On the S18 he jumps the wheel over a chain that's suspended about a foot above the road.

[Unventor]

Just now, mike_bike_kite said:

Is this just anecdotal or is there some actual proof that this really happened?

It was said briefly on IM WhatsApp channel. But they did't want to go into details. I am pretty sure there are court order transscrpites as prooof, I just don't have this. Nor do I care.

That KS managed to come up with a diffrent system in time to not having V11 alone in market with offering suspention is pretty impressive. How much testing and wear and tear on the system they have been able to do i don't know. _They are like to have some idea thoigh due to the markings shown on their early prototype with golden parts.

[mike_bike_kite]

2 minutes ago, Unventor said:

It was said briefly on IM WhatsApp channel.

LOL - that counts as pretty anecdotal then

 

[Unventor]

8 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Perhaps, most telling was when Kuji came to a kerb. He stopped and lifted the wheel onto the pavement! On the S18 he jumps the wheel over a chain that's suspended about a foot above the road.

The V11 don't have jump pads (yet, Inmotion has listen and looking into a solution). Kuji has been part of KS S18 design (roumered, I don't know for sure) and why the KS S18 have foot graping area near pedals. So jumping isn't really anything to do with suspenstion. The ability to grab a wheel to force it to do something is going to make a differance going up of curbs ans stairs. 

Now from my personal point, I know that I have misjudged this before (lastly on my KS16X) so I would rather go to the curb and lift it. I guess I am just not hardcore enough. I do know even if a wheel can do things I still need to control and apply it, and that ability I don't have like Kuji. I can't do the things he does. One any wheel. I ride for very different reasons than he does. 

[Unventor]

4 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

LOL - that counts as pretty anecdotal then

 

Maybe but IM commented they won the court order they filled. You interpert that any way you like.

[stephen]

17 minutes ago, stephen said:

I don't do that on any of my wheels 😂😁

Edited 😁

[Nic]

Its good to be excited for new technology.

The S18 has the best suspension, but who cares? ... just like we don't all drive the same car that has the best suspension, it all comes down to the overall balance in qualities that we want and like. For me, I like the V11 as its more suited to commuting than S18 and the bigger battery and great lights matter more to me than whether or not the suspension is the best. If I spent most of my time off-road on trails, or doing tricks, then S18 would be my preference. Better still, just have both.

As things stand, I won't be having either at the moment as I don't have enough riding experience yet and I won't be buying another wheel until the UK updates its antiquated laws.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

16 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I ride for very different reasons than he does. 

I always wonder what those reasons are? 

If I don't choose a car as a means of transport, where I can get from A to B quickly and safely, regardless of the weather, comfortably, with hi-fi sound, enough storage space, without protective clothing, with my wife / child / friends, then riding fun is in the foreground.

When I then ride the EUC as if I was taking my newborn sleeping daughter for a walk in a pram, then somehow no real joy comes up for me. 

Of course, if you don't have a car to choose from, it's something completely different.

Edited May 31, 2020 by buell47

[Chriull]

Btw - was anything announced if the V11 will have some new "smart BMS" with single cell monitoring to increase safety?

[Unventor]

16 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Btw - was anything announced if the V11 will have some new "smart BMS" with single cell monitoring to increase safety?

In the Q&A part 1 interview, the CEO explains something about what they have done to improve BMS and battery handling and thatt they run a parallel configuration that can function with one pack shutting down. But not stating invidual cell monotoring.

[Chriull]

On 5/30/2020 at 12:00 PM, B08AH said:

It is 5Ah * 4. With 5Amps charger it can't be less than 4 hours. Realistically it is 4.5h

Just looked their homepage - there is stated "dash charging in 5h with dual port"

On the specification grafik in the Q&A is also written 10h charging time and 5h with dual charger.

The 3.5h seem to be some typing error/miscommunication.

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, buell47 said:

I always wonder what those reasons are? 

If I don't choose a car as a means of transport, where I can get from A to B quickly and safely, regardless of the weather, comfortably, with hi-fi sound, enough storage space, without protective clothing, with my wife / child / friends, then riding fun is in the foreground.

When I then ride the EUC as if I was taking my newborn sleeping daughter for a walk in a pram, then somehow no real joy comes up for me. 

Of course, if you don't have a car to choose from, it's something completely different.

I have a Mazda CX-5 (I had to get a SUV because of my back problems and how unflexable and limitation to twisting spine) that I use when I cannot do what I need to do by EUC. 9 out of 1½0 times I do mu daily and weekly shopping by EUC now. 

If I am to take car 1,8 km to work, I have an additional monthly parking fee of 50€ and often have to circle 5-10 min to find a parking spot. We also have congestion fees in the city depending on where I must go. On EUC I do not get these.

Also different for you I have rheumatic diseases and problems showing mostly in feet, ankle, knees (very severe, right knee is bone on bone now), hips, lower back and neck and shoulders. So basically, all vertical joints are impacted. If I get a cold or a flu, my psoriatic arthritis (one of 3 different rheumatic diagnosis I have)  can be triggered to any random new join for a brief time or continuously ever after, it depends and I have no explanation for it

Before I start riding, I could at most split my legs in a V measuring 51cm, 1.5 months after my hip moment had improved so it is 105cm. I ride to maintain moment of my joints. just 5km ride have a huge impact. 

Before I started riding my strength and balance on each leg were so bad, I could balance on one 1 leg anymore. I can do this now. In fact, specialist rheumatic department at hospital had never encountered such an improvement to the state I were is as I were at my worst. At first glance you would not think I have any problem. But I take mild chemo medicine to dampen inflammatory reaction in my body each week and every 8-9 weeks I get drop medicine to add further effect to this.

So, I ride partly as a "medicine" and exercise treatment and for commuting convenience and cost and for pleasure. Yes, I ride off-road or dirt paths too occasionally. As long I can share load between 2 legs I do simply fine. That is way EUC has become such a huge lifestyle change to me. It is also why I dislike any behaviour that put EUC rides at high risk to get a total ban, as this would be very devastation to my newfound quality of life. 

I don't expect you or anyone really understand how huge an impact and improvement EUCs have been for my daily life. It is also why I dedicate a lot of time in any way I can to maintain EUC lifestyle and sharing with others that don't know of EUC yet.

Yes, I can walk normally on even ground, but uneven terrain or on a slope makes my knee hurt a lot for days. I can't cycle here in Sweden as the city are divided by a mountain ridge and that makes forces on my knee too sever, that is why I bought my first car 12 years ago, before that I cycled everywhere. A car tends to make you lazy. At age 32 I had to quit my job as I could walk that much on concrete floors, this is what the medications help me to do these days.

So @buell47 bottom line we ride for very different reasons. I don't think we need to question this anymore do you? And you reason might just be as valid as mine. But mine have huge impact you my quality of life and everyday function. 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Unventor

[B08AH]

3 hours ago, Unventor said:

It is fine if you don't want to buy the V11.

I actually did want to buy it. I was prepared to put up with this excessive weight just to get the only EUC with suspension. 5 days it lasted.

[Unventor]

2 minutes ago, B08AH said:

I actually did want to buy it. I was prepared to put up with this excessive weight just to get the only EUC with suspension. 5 days it lasted.

How is the weight of KS16X working for you then? And I guess the V11 don't have you interest that is not nessary the same as for others.