INMOTION V11 (2020)

[Phong Vu]

I'm not quite understand why people defend the "get off" behavior of the wheel, it sounds very dangerous to me.
What happen with the traffic behind you when you go 31 mph and then come to hard stop without notice?

For the people said that they rather being forced stop instead of cut-off. I understand that.

But let discuss the video, agreed that Kuji did accelerate hard, but the wheel force stop at 28.7 mph.

1. So, if this is the physical limit of the wheel:
   • Someone said if accelerating gradually, we can reach higher speed, assumed 31 mph (or possible higher as Inmotion said they will increase top speed), so are we riding on the wheel physical limit now? No buffer? Is it dangerous?
2. If this is not the physical limit of the wheel:
   • Why not just slow down instead of force stop.

What I try to say is I rather being slowed down a bit sooner than being forced stop later.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Phong Vu

[Dave Wood]

25 minutes ago, Phong Vu said:

What happen with the traffic behind you when you go 31 mph and then come to hard stop without notice?

it wouldn't tell you to 'get' get off in that situation... the get off warning only triggers for a overload/overlean not for a over speed situation  so your little senario won't happen in a normal traffic situation unless your driving like a moron!

im 6.4 and 15 stone and iv NEVER  over powered my v10 so can we stop making out like this is a common occurrence when the truth is it's really not for the majority of riders..

Edited May 24, 2020 by Dave Wood

[TheBladeOfHades]

The warnings for inmotion are

please get off- overpower

please slow down- top speed threshold 

Kuji overpowered the wheel from his lean but he had lots of time to even out his speed if he didn’t keep pushing it. 
the fact it did not overpower right away is a testament to the wheel.  
 

[Jon Stern]

Does "Please get off" really force you to get off, or is it a request? There's a big difference.

What matters is the actual behavior of the wheel, not the wording of a translated warning message.

[TheBladeOfHades]

Big tilt and only shutting down the wheel will fix

knowing your wheel is the biggest safety feature and riding accordingly so you don’t overpower it is the key 

Edited May 24, 2020 by TheBladeOfHades

[musk]

The main reason I like Inmotion is their attention to making the device safer than the other manufacturers.  For hardware, they've typically shown more attention to waterproofing and the new V11 presentation highlights the increased number of mosfets and a more sophisticated battery system which can operate even if one pack has failed.  They also seem to have taken lighting more seriously, for both forward and rear directions.   On the software side, they've typically had a more conservative performance curve while the batteries are being drained, which I appreciate.  On the human side, they've treated max wattage overpower situations AS THE BIG DEAL THEY ARE by purposely inconveniencing the rider to slow down and stop.  (This might also serve the dual purpose of allowing the electronics time to cool.)

We already have other manufacturers emphasizing other things.  Let's acknowledge that safety is one of Inmotion's strengths, and we need at least one company prioritizing that. We don't need another Gotway. 

[WI_Hedgehog]

To tell the rider to "please get off" is extremely rude in many cultures. InMotion is really pushing the limits of the hardware if they cannot simply slow down.

Gotway allows the rider freedom. Freedom coupled with ignorance is usually painful. Freedom coupled with arrogance is government. Freedom coupled with stupidity results in karma.

[onizukagto]

6 hours ago, DjPanJan said:

@Phong Vu 

Fact: 3. Neither Gotway nor Kingsong will force you to stop.

 

Gotway and Kingsong prefer the rider to manually get off with the typical "ground-braking" technique when overpowered.

Usually the braking is done with the riders body hitting the ground. 

So, you are correct about gotway and kingsong being different from inmotion "get off" warning....

[UniVehje]

Just to clarify for casual readers:

• Kuji did not test for max speed. He stated that he has a firmware capable 55 km/h. That was an acceleration test.
• That was a pretty nice acceleration for an 18x3 wheel!! 
• the alarm heard was for overpower, which is triggered when power demand is more than the trigger point (unknown at the moment) for extended periods, likely a second or two.
• The clue is on the app display. You can see the power meter go red for most of the run and power reading going up to 3500W and being over 3000W for almost a second. The wheel can do more for peak power, it’s not at the limits. But they’re not allowing the wheel to exceed its nominal 3000W (control board) for extended periods to protect from overheating.
• The firmware is still under development so it’s possible the threshold is not yet set and we can also ask for different behavior. They are listening pretty well now. But the idea of getting off is to let it cool down a bit. I agree it can be annoying. It would probably cool down with slow riding also. 
• We don’t actually know what happened as the video was cut too early.
• This should happen much less on a V11 with 12 beefy MOSFETs vs 6 on the V10. 
• If you keep demanding more than the nominal power for long periods you should consider another wheel or changing the way you ride. Especially at 120 kg. Acceleration is the most demanding task for the wheel. If you truly understand how these machines work you would not lean like Kuji in traffic. Especially at 120 kg on a V10. Or on any wheel. Just because they don’t have the same trigger for alarm doesn’t mean they are not using the same power. We enjoy acceleration understandably on every possible thing we ride but EUCs are special by nature and should be respected. 
   
• In general, I think the Inmotion approach is a good one as long as the limits are wide enough and not too conservative. Better to protect the wheel and rider. I’d rather step off the wheel sooner for a while than step off later to replace the fuse or wires. 

[Unventor]

Now one thing that seems to have escaped attention here is that this is a short clip and more or less taken out of context. It show a brief situation. What transpired before and after isn't really that clear. 

Again if you push your wheel that hard then there are 3 outcomes.

A ) A company trying g to apply common sense that the rider didn't do. It can anticipate that this will end badly and it is it's way to say this is bad. It might not be a kind way, but it didn't result in a faceplant. 

B ) A company that doesn't interrupt and rider will exceed the wheels limitation and end result will be faceplant due to cutoff. You can call it freedom to faceplant. But do you really need a wheel to do that?

C ) Rider know that with 50% battery He or she should be careful how far you push a wheel to its limits and where you do that. If you as rider ride places where this is you normal ride style you are in the wrong place on the wrong vehicle. An EUC isn't a car or mc. On some roads cycles are not suited to go and you should view an EUC in the same reguard. 

Now going back to the video. I think it shows that the V11 is a powerful wheel and that you can forget that it has limitations. To reach that speed so fast shows how strong it is. That you reach a limit this fast also show that wheels of today is very different than wheels launched back in 2014. Modern wheels can be pushed far but essentially they are still a electric motor and speed vs torque is still a balance you as rider need to understand to apply safe usage. 

This is still a wheel that isn't build for top speed. Yet people are asking for more speed. I honestly think it will be a mistake to give in for this.

I view this, V11, as a SUV not as a dragster and trying to push it to be something it is not will just end in disappointment. 

I can still say I would not ride my wheels this way in traffic. And I have no need to accelerate this hard as if I have to do that then I have placed myself in a situation that I show have avoid in the first place. 

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, musk said:

The main reason I like Inmotion is their attention to making the device safer than the other manufacturers.  For hardware, they've typically shown more attention to waterproofing and the new V11 presentation highlights the increased number of mosfets and a more sophisticated battery system which can operate even if one pack has failed.  They also seem to have taken lighting more seriously, for both forward and rear directions.   On the software side, they've typically had a more conservative performance curve while the batteries are being drained, which I appreciate.  On the human side, they've treated max wattage overpower situations AS THE BIG DEAL THEY ARE by purposely inconveniencing the rider to slow down and stop.  (This might also serve the dual purpose of allowing the electronics time to cool.)

We already have other manufacturers emphasizing other things.  Let's acknowledge that safety is one of Inmotion's strengths, and we need at least one company prioritizing that. We don't need another Gotway. 

If only I could have put it this elegant as you done here. 

It all boils down to don't make Inmotion into GW. If GW is what you want the buy what they supply. If you want a different design philosophy Inmotion is there to supply it. Now they are building a stronger version of the V10f but it still have put tide comfort and safety over speed. 

I am very happy to put my vote in where I think is the right approach. I am so looking forward to get my V11. And yes GW is never going to be in my persuasion as I do not think the GW approach is the right way to go about. Unless they stop the race of top speed and start to look into safer and comfortable rides.I am perfectly fine not to own a GW wheel. 

[mrelwood]

 

4 hours ago, Phong Vu said:

But let discuss the video, agreed that Kuji did accelerate hard, but the wheel force stop at 28.7 mph.

1. So, if this is the physical limit of the wheel:
   • Someone said if accelerating gradually, we can reach higher speed, assumed 31 mph (or possible higher as Inmotion said they will increase top speed), so are we riding on the wheel physical limit now? No buffer? Is it dangerous?
2. If this is not the physical limit of the wheel:
   • Why not just slow down instead of force stop.

No wheel (other than GW) will ever let you ride anywhere near the physical top speed of the wheel. There is always a decent speed buffer available.

 Accelerating like that will plummet the battery voltage way down immediately. EUCW logs on the Euco’s MSX vs MSP uphill acceleration comparison shows a full battery getting down to something like 15% in a second. My guess is that in Kuji’s acceleration the busy battery of the V11 engages the speed limit much earlier than 28mph, but it takes a while for the tilt-back to overcome his supernatural lean.

 

But what raised this discussion is the wheel’s overpower warning behavior. Comparing stepping off to replacing a fuse or faceplanting is something I don’t really get. KS has no problem telling the rider about “Overpower” and letting the ride continue. If Inmotion would first warn about the overpower, and if continued for two seconds or more, then I would accept stepping off as a reasonable course of action. And it damn sure wouldn’t make the V11 a GW, like some people seem to suggest. But having the first warning already a “get off“ isn’t right in my mind, no matter how far the threshold is.

 It’s not about rider weight either. If a 70kg rider can reach the limit when accelerating on flat ground, a 100kg rider doesn’t have to be out-of-this-world stupid to reach the limit when accelerating uphill. Or a 120kg rider when off-roading. It’s been made clear since day one that the V11 has not been designed as a peaceful cruising wheel for sub 100kg riders. IM has said word to word that they are making an off-road capable high-powered wheel for professional riders. In order to fill those shoes the wheel must behave as expected, especially when nearing the limits. Expecting no-one to ever reach the power warning threshold of the wheel is absurd. And they are not necessarily “holding the phone wrong” if they do.

[WI_Hedgehog]

It  does not have to be speed or quality or safety, this is a false assumption.

If the customer wants speed, and you do not offer speed, the customer will buy from the company that gives them what they want. Often the customer also wants quality, and Gotway does not supply that in much of any capacity. It does however show that many customers want speed more than quality, which is Gotway's strength. Gotway sells mostly ugly travel suitcases with minimal flair, almost no quality, no real durability, for a lot of money, which is a testament to what people want.(Gotway does offer safety, which can be disabled by the user.)

King Song sells a fast, dependable, rideable wheel, with pretty high quality, and a lot of range and pretty good durability. And they sell a lot of wheels. 

Segway/Ninebot sell a really durable, safe, sleek, rideable wheel that's as slow as pudding. Almost nobody here buys them. I won't buy them. I haven't seen any interest in what new wheel Segway may offer. Do they offer a new wheel? 

Now you have InMotion trying to produce a 34 MPH wheel, topping King Song by 4-6 MPH, depending on what InMotion actually comes out with. They have a suspension, a new motor, slick battery idea, and people are still drawn to King Song. Until InMotion makes a better, faster wheel, it doesn't matter, they've got to actually make a better, faster wheel. Kuji said it about the V10, he's always at the speed limit of the machine, so much so he taped over the speakers to shut them up. 

People who drive crotch-rockets (superbikes/motorcycles) do not drive at 145 MPH all the time! When EUCs went 15 MPH people wanted 20, and so on up to the MSX which does what? 45, 47 MPH? If a person cruises at 40 MPH [relatively] safely, that's a lot faster than King Song's 28 MPH real-world speed. And the MSP doesn't do 45-47, but the new one does. Why is that?

People will buy a machine with both speed and quality, it's a given. The first company to put those two together is going to make a killing profit-wise.

Safety? Like Mike Roe says, "Safety third." 

Edited May 25, 2020 by WI_Hedgehog

[UniVehje]

28 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

If Inmotion would first warn about the overpower, and if continued for two seconds or more, then I would accept stepping off as a reasonable course of action.

This would be the ideal way to do it. I would like to wheel to shout "RELAX!" at me if I'm about to overpower it so that I could tone it down a bit and avoid stopping. However, by nature the power demand usually doesn't come slowly. Very difficult to ask 3000+W of power doing it slowly. Maybe on a steep hill. Like in the Kuji's video the "pre-warning" wouldn't have had much reaction time. Hopefully they can extend the limits a bit to allow 2-3 seconds before asking to step off and maybe trigger the pre-warning a bit earlier to let the rider know they're approaching the limits. 

[Phong Vu]

Lets bring up this classic acceleration test from Kuji (I marked the timestamp).
18XL vs MSX.

Nobody ask V11 to behave like a Gotway.
But is expecting similar performance to 18XL too much? 18XL is a 2 years old wheel, with very similar specs to V11.
I didn't see it ask Kuji to get off the wheel, the wheel slow down but still ride peacefully after over power.

But again, we're arguing over a very short clip, nobody know for sure if V11 will behave like V10F when over power.
 

 

[UniVehje]

10 minutes ago, Phong Vu said:

Lets bring up this classic acceleration test from Kuji (I marked the timestamp).
18XL vs MSX.

Nobody ask V11 to behave like a Gotway.
But is expecting similar performance to 18XL too much? 18XL is a 2 years old wheel, with very similar specs to V11.
I didn't see it ask Kuji to get off the wheel, the wheel slow down but still ride peacefully after over power.

But again, we're arguing over a very short clip, nobody know for sure if V11 will behave like V10F when over power.
 

I think KingSong also has an overpower alarm separate from speed and battery alarms. But I don't know what the triggers are. 

But this video shows something about the acceleration tests. If you pause the side-by-side footage at any point you can see the difference in lean angle. The acceleration tests are more game of chicken than about what the wheel can do. Which brings me to another point. On that video Kuji got times of 5.33 and 5.60 seconds (speeds 50 km/h and 48 km/h). On the latest V11 video I timed 4 seconds until the warning and the speed of 46 km/h. Looks like Kuji has gotten better and braver at leaning, which might explain the alarm also. The earlier video doesn't show power usage on the app overlays, which is a shame. Would be interesting to compare and see how the alarms are triggered. 

[Unventor]

25 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

I think KingSong also has an overpower alarm separate from speed and battery alarms. But I don't know what the triggers are. 

KS do have overpower alarms. 

You can see it here in this video of KS16X going up steep inclines. But in this case it is trigger not combined with speed. 

Now I see some compare to MSX here. The MSX is not fast of the start nor super at braking. 

I do hope @Kuji Nakano soon share some insight to how the wheel over all is and how it performs. On the other hand we do know he is using a test firmware that Inmotion is trying to look into possibility of raising top speed limit. A speed they didn't aim for in their base design. I just hope they don't ruin the V11 in trying to please GW buyers.

I also hope we soon see some other reviews as I like to see a more like my daily ride style would look like. I am not riding like Kuji. But I would hope it is good at braking as it is important to me. I would rather be able to brake hard then navigate than trying to accelerate out of a situation. 

[UniVehje]

8 minutes ago, Unventor said:

A speed they didn't aim for in their base design.

How do you know that? From the early rumours on it was supposed to be faster than 50 km/h wheel. It was actually a surprise they announced it at only 50 km/h. You have know idea what type of motor they used and where the limits are. 16X is a totally different story with a motor focused on torque and smaller diameter. 18x3" tire and their new in-house motor and new control board could easily be capable of same speeds as Gotways with similar specs. They all use just standard parts, I've never seen any real reason for a Gotway with 84V, 2000W nominal motor, 20s6p battery and 12 MOSFETs would be more powerful than another brand with 84V, 2000W nominal motor, 20s6p battery and 12 MOSFETs. V11 has only difference at the battery with 21700 cells. 

It's all a question of how much reserves there should be and I believe that is what they are testing now. I don't see any reason it will be ruined if they allow it to go faster. We get your position as it's been stated quite frequently. You can always set the limits lower. Personally I'm probably not going to go any faster but there are some people who like more speed. Why deny them the opportunity? This hobby has become too big to control. We are not going to stop people from doing stupid things. They already have the wheels to do it with if they are going to. 

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

A speed they didn't aim for in their base design.

Not true. When they announced that they are working on an 18" wheel with suspension last fall, they said that the top speed will be "more than 50km/h, probably 55km/h".

When they introduced the wheel with 50km/h top speed, people naturally asked for the top speed they had been expecting to see for months.

Edited May 25, 2020 by mrelwood

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

How do you know that?

I have been in contact with Inmotion discussing inputs and feedback. So I can only say that from those they didn't aim for more than 50kmh. You can see that also from their launch presentation. 

[Nic]

4 hours ago, UniVehje said:

This would be the ideal way to do it. I would like to wheel to shout "RELAX!" at me if I'm about to overpower it ...

Don't you mean "RELAX ... DON'T DO IT ... WHEN YOU WANT TO SUCK A CHEW-IT ... RELAX ... DON'T DO IT ... WHEN YOU WANT TO ... OOPS, TOO LATE!!!".

[kurt_hectic]

I've been using v10f for past 6 months nearly every day and never had a warning you are writing about. Maybe because I weight 71kg. 

[DjPanJan]

For riders who "never" have overload with V10/V10F please read this. ⏫⏫⏫⏫

 Riders mix two words

overheat = just too many heat ( we not talk about this V10F fan if work make relatively good job)

overload = thats we talk about its just stop push lift sensor or on/off jump back to V10F and continue ride. (overload is trigered "high" current drain in 3 secons)

36 minutes ago, kurt_hectic said:

I've been using v10f for past 6 months nearly every day and never had a warning you are writing about. Maybe because I weight 71kg. 

I am like you enjoy you V10F.

My girlfriend ride my V10F and never experience it too but she ride like lady and she weight is XX Kg (censored).

(joke/irony/satire start)

Dont worry once you be lucky and you v10F force you to stop. This day come maybee when you overtake cyclist or you try run away from dangerous situation (tornado ,car, cyclist) or when you try ride out 3 angry dogs what want eat you face. You panic push hard and hear it ,overload please get off.I hold my thumbs for you.

(joke/irony/satire end)

The more we discuss in the pre-production phase and we find controversial places before the release.

The better the V11 product will be and I hope we will agree that we all want the best V11.
Because once V11 is made, the only thing that can be changed is the Firmware, and it is not omnipotent, it will still be limited by the capabilities of the hardware. That is why I thank everyone for a positive and quality discussion and I am glad that some of you share this opinion with me on this controversial feature.

[Patton250]

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

No wheel (other than GW) will ever let you ride anywhere near the physical top speed of the wheel. There is always a decent speed buffer available.

 Accelerating like that will plummet the battery voltage way down immediately. EUCW logs on the Euco’s MSX vs MSP uphill acceleration comparison shows a full battery getting down to something like 15% in a second. My guess is that in Kuji’s acceleration the busy battery of the V11 engages the speed limit much earlier than 28mph, but it takes a while for the tilt-back to overcome his supernatural lean.

 

But what raised this discussion is the wheel’s overpower warning behavior. Comparing stepping off to replacing a fuse or faceplanting is something I don’t really get. KS has no problem telling the rider about “Overpower” and letting the ride continue. If Inmotion would first warn about the overpower, and if continued for two seconds or more, then I would accept stepping off as a reasonable course of action. And it damn sure wouldn’t make the V11 a GW, like some people seem to suggest. But having the first warning already a “get off“ isn’t right in my mind, no matter how far the threshold is.

 It’s not about rider weight either. If a 70kg rider can reach the limit when accelerating on flat ground, a 100kg rider doesn’t have to be out-of-this-world stupid to reach the limit when accelerating uphill. Or a 120kg rider when off-roading. It’s been made clear since day one that the V11 has not been designed as a peaceful cruising wheel for sub 100kg riders. IM has said word to word that they are making an off-road capable high-powered wheel for professional riders. In order to fill those shoes the wheel must behave as expected, especially when nearing the limits. Expecting no-one to ever reach the power warning threshold of the wheel is absurd. And they are not necessarily “holding the phone wrong” if they do.

I have a question. What is the definition of a “professional rider”? I didn’t know our hobby had those. I know we have people that are really good and talented but I didn’t know we had professionals. How do you become a professional? Who determines that you are in fact a professional? Do people considered professionals get paid for it? I’m learning something new about EUC’s every day.  LMK. Thanks. 

[Dave Wood]

7 minutes ago, DjPanJan said:

Riders mix two words

overheat = just too many heat ( we not talk about this V10F fan if work make relatively good job)

overload = thats we talk about its just stop push lift sensor or on/off jump back to V10F and continue ride. (overload is trigered "high" current drain in 3 secons)

i can assure you there's no mixup here, I live in england so overheating a wheel here is near enough impossible lol... theres a clear difference between overheating a wheel or overloading a wheel and i stand by my statement of never ever having overloaded my V10