KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

[ir_fuel]

I just sent a msg to 1radwerkstatt

[bruno356]

3 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

That defeats a bit the purpose of braking.

I could simply brake less too, to avoid them, but I think you should be able to brake a wheel hard without the risk of falling off. 

 

And I also highly doubt it's rider error, as so many people have it here. Also wondering if lowering the pressure to such ridiculous errors isn't a way of masking a different issue.

Did you Check your motor and rim assy for sideways wobble at all for the sake of interest.

[ir_fuel]

34 minutes ago, bruno356 said:

Did you Check your motor and rim assy for sideways wobble at all for the sake of interest.

Not much to be seen there. Also if it was related to that wouldn't it wobble badly when simply going straight without braking?

[eddiemoy]

13 hours ago, Gustesta said:

@eddiemoy said that would the best option.  He tried all of them. 

IMO, the CYT tire was the best.  Zero adjustment , felt like a more nimble 18L/XL.  Means zero gyro.  It was perfect for me at 20psi.  Unfortunately I cannot find it anywhere except for this 14” equivalent that supposedly fits 16x3.  Tempted to buy it but it looks slightly different than the true 16x3.   

Glad you are liking the 16X.  It is really a great wheel for up to 31mph.  Although since I’ve been playing with the Nikola, I find the 16X require more effort leaning to get it to go.  Strange as the 16X pedals are longer.  

Same tire on both at the moment and they feel different.  I’ve been riding the Nikola and when jumping back on the KS 16/18, there is zero adjustment.  I’m still getting braking wobbles on the Nik, still need to test the higher or even lower pressure.  

[Gustesta]

58 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

IMO, the CYT tire was the best.  Zero adjustment , felt like a more nimble 18L/XL.  Means zero gyro.  It was perfect for me at 20psi.  Unfortunately I cannot find it anywhere except for this 14” equivalent that supposedly fits 16x3.  Tempted to buy it but it looks slightly different than the true 16x3.   

Glad you are liking the 16X.  It is really a great wheel for up to 31mph.  Although since I’ve been playing with the Nikola, I find the 16X require more effort leaning to get it to go.  Strange as the 16X pedals are longer.  

Same tire on both at the moment and they feel different.  I’ve been riding the Nikola and when jumping back on the KS 16/18, there is zero adjustment.  I’m still getting braking wobbles on the Nik, still need to test the higher or even lower pressure.  

The 16x is a very comfortable wheel and even with the s.... tire, I like it a lot!  I'm trying to get the CYT tire directly with KS.  I'll let you know if I succeed.

I guess because of my weight (200lbs), maximum speed I can get is 29 mph (and then the overpower advice start to kick)!  But I'm Ok with 29mph.  It's already very fast!

Wobbling is zero since I'm using the stand up and no knees bent technique.   

Is the CST tire much better on the 16x?  Does it ride like a 18L then?  Is it hard to change the tire?  

Thank you!

 

[Gustesta]

I've just tested the 16x again.  

Zero wobbling at 29mph:

My weight 200 pounds.

PSI of the s... stock tire: 29 

Technique: as you're gaining speed, start straightening up your legs, no knee bents, like you're standing still.

[Jon Stern]

18 minutes ago, Gustesta said:

I've just tested the 16x again.  

Zero wobbling at 29mph:

My weight 200 pounds.

PSI of the s... stock tire: 29 

Technique: as you're gaining speed, start straightening up your legs, no knee bents, like you're standing still.

Does anyone weighing 200lbs get wobbles on this wheel?

[Afeez Kay]

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

IMO, the CYT tire was the best.  Zero adjustment , felt like a more nimble 18L/XL.  Means zero gyro.  It was perfect for me at 20psi.  Unfortunately I cannot find it anywhere except for this 14” equivalent that supposedly fits 16x3.  Tempted to buy it but it looks slightly different than the true 16x3.   

Glad you are liking the 16X.  It is really a great wheel for up to 31mph.  Although since I’ve been playing with the Nikola, I find the 16X require more effort leaning to get it to go.  Strange as the 16X pedals are longer.  

Same tire on both at the moment and they feel different.  I’ve been riding the Nikola and when jumping back on the KS 16/18, there is zero adjustment.  I’m still getting braking wobbles on the Nik, still need to test the higher or even lower pressure.  

Hi Eddie, I will be going to the KS factory next week Tuesday.. which tire would you recommend KS change to based on your experience as I have read CYT and CST are both good.

thanks 

[fryman]

Makes me think that there is a manufacturing issue with the stock tire since some people have issues and some don't.  Concerning PSI; you should be able to adjust the PSI to your riding weight and be good to go.

[Jon Stern]

9 minutes ago, fryman said:

Makes me think that there is a manufacturing issue with the stock tire since some people have issues and some don't.  Concerning PSI; you should be able to adjust the PSI to your riding weight and be good to go.

I'm suspecting it's down to rider weight.

[Jon Stern]

Please answer this poll that's intended to discern if there's any correlation between speed/braking wobbles on the KS-16X and rider weight.

 

[sparetire55]

24 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

Does anyone weighing 200lbs get wobbles on this wheel?

I'm around 200 fully-loaded (full protection, full backpack in commute mode). I get speed/brake wobbles if my feet are straight on the pedals hugging the wheel. If I duck my feet out and put my weight on the outsides of my feet/pedals, I get no wobbles. Currently running the stock tire at 40PSI.

[Jon Stern]

1 minute ago, sparetire55 said:

I'm around 200 fully-loaded (full protection, full backpack in commute mode). I get speed/brake wobbles if my feet are straight on the pedals hugging the wheel. If I duck my feet out and put my weight on the outsides of my feet/pedals, I get no wobbles. Currently running the stock tire at 40PSI.

That seems to be high pressure for this wheel. Have you tried lower pressures?

[Unventor]

Now I have yet to ride the KS16X, so I think blaming sll on tyre is just an easy way out. Now I said it very blunt. 

I do not recall the debate for tyre has been this hot ever on any other previous wheel. 

So this is what I do think is goi g on. Partly due to the motor, algorithm/fw optimisation, maybe a tiny bit on the tyre, but mostly down yo rider. 

The Z10 got some of the debate too but since no other real option people rode and either massively like or disliked it. Other options are out there with 3" wide tyre. But it does have different motor amd on oaper the KS16X is the most powerfull torque wise on the market right now in it size atleast. 2200W nominated or 4200W peak, combined that with 16". 

A massive force in any machine or device often leads to vibrations, maybenot always but still often. When a user/rider demands a lot of forve question is how well you can keep this under control. To me it seems that heavier riders tesd to succeed more. 

Now if the new firmware change this all great and dandy, but I still think it is down to adopt and learn on this wheel on a subconscious level. This some seem better at than others. 

I might have to swallow my statement but to me it just seems plane silly to rush out buying different tyres without testing the wheel first and playing around with tyre pressure. Just because some say they don't like and the all talk is about this seems to me the behaviour of lemmings, following the mob. 

I guess it comes down to high user expectations and the race is to make the one and only wheel to rule them all... Which is not going to happen. So this one wheel got much heat around it. 

 

[sparetire55]

16 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

That seems to be high pressure for this wheel. Have you tried lower pressures?

Other than whatever the PSI it came from the factory, no not yet. I haven't found a reason to. Plus I'm kind of an efficiency snob, so the higher PSI should give me less rolling resistance, better torque, and more range.

[chrisjunlee]

13 minutes ago, sparetire55 said:

 I'm kind of an efficiency snob, so the higher PSI should give me less rolling resistance, better torque, and more range.

For drum tests, yes. For street riding? Lower PSI gives better efficiency.

[stephen]

2 hours ago, Unventor said:

Now I have yet to ride the KS16X, so I think blaming sll on tyre is just an easy way out. Now I said it very blunt. 

I do not recall the debate for tyre has been this hot ever on any other previous wheel. 

So this is what I do think is goi g on. Partly due to the motor, algorithm/fw optimisation, maybe a tiny bit on the tyre, but mostly down yo rider. 

The Z10 got some of the debate too but since no other real option people rode and either massively like or disliked it. Other options are out there with 3" wide tyre. But it does have different motor amd on oaper the KS16X is the most powerfull torque wise on the market right now in it size atleast. 2200W nominated or 4200W peak, combined that with 16". 

A massive force in any machine or device often leads to vibrations, maybenot always but still often. When a user/rider demands a lot of forve question is how well you can keep this under control. To me it seems that heavier riders tesd to succeed more. 

Now if the new firmware change this all great and dandy, but I still think it is down to adopt and learn on this wheel on a subconscious level. This some seem better at than others. 

I might have to swallow my statement but to me it just seems plane silly to rush out buying different tyres without testing the wheel first and playing around with tyre pressure. Just because some say they don't like and the all talk is about this seems to me the behaviour of lemmings, following the mob. 

I guess it comes down to high user expectations and the race is to make the one and only wheel to rule them all... Which is not going to happen. So this one wheel got much heat around it. 

 

This is what I've been thinking for a while but just couldn't be bothered saying anything , I'm sure people will adapt just because it's a different wheel it handles different , like my z10 was so different but now i just get on either without a problem , just give it time , i used to love soft psi cause it felt better/safer now i Pump it up more,,, 10psi more😁

Edited August 16, 2019 by stephen

[Mike Paolini]

 

@mrelwood

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The problem with your theory is that no matter how much the firmware or motor oscillates back and forth, there is absolutely nothing the wheel can do to engage a sideways motion. A wobble is movement purely from left to right. Even Kuji’s video of the worst possible front to back oscillation on the 16X didn’t seem to introduce any wobbling from side to side.

Sounds like you are unfamiliar with PIO's.   As I stated earlier and I'm assuming you missed it, the intermittent forward and back tilting is going to change the Pilots weight positioning because they are standing on these peddles which ARE shifting.   And the pilots movement as a result isn't going to be just along just the forward/back axis 100% of the time when this occurs.  Sometimes the Pilot going to react shifting weight unevenly between their legs or moving their body left and right as they catch their balance resulting in side wobble, which they will then over correct resulting in PIO's - and yes you can combat these by standing up to reduce the over correction the Pilot is inputing into the system.   And yes the wobbles are technically the Pilot, but it's important to realize it was in response to the device itself inducing the Pilot response that lead to the PIO's.  

I find this far more likely that the tire PSI theory because tire PSI is basically constant, and the wobbles are intermittent often separated by miles.   Meaning if you it was truly the tire, you'd expect consistent behavior from it.   Unbalanced tires ALWAYS wobble, they do not SOMETIMES wobble one out of ten miles for example.   

 

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The stamped tire inflation guidelines have been discussed and pretty much debunked before. They don’t seem to have much to do with the tire itself, but the intended purpose.

Here's where I look at you like you are a "Flat Earther" telling me that the Earth being round has been debunked - because you are arguing with science and physics in general.  

Tires are designed to support specific weights at up to a maximum speed - to withstand the stresses these things cause while also preserving proper contact with the road surface to enable proper control of the vehicle.  This tire is the cx321 16x3.0 76-305 intended for a payload of up to 220 pounds when inflated to between 35-45 PSI according the manufacture at moped speeds.

Under inflated tires effect the shape of the tire under load and rotational forces, which effects contact with the road surface (and  for example may cause the sidewalls to touch the road surface during bumps or just in general - which they are not intended or engineered to do).   Under inflated tires are putting weight stress on the sidewall of the tire in a way that the sidewall has also not been intended, designed or engineered to support.   Further, under inflated tires are known to cause extra resistance when rolling, and worth pointing out here, extra resistance results in extra heat.  And on and on and on.    You aren't arguing with opinion here, you are arguing with the science of how things work.  And considering the Tire is the point of contact with the road and your control, I have a hard time thinking of any less safe thing a rider could tinker with, than taking the tire out of it's design parameters.  

So yea, I don't consider under inflated safe or reasonable or any kind of common sense.  

[Unventor]

8 minutes ago, Mike Paolini said:

So yea, I don't consider under inflated safe or reasonable or any kind of common sense.  

I acturly think the entire post is spot on, but if just add s 1.5 cent to this part. I will use a race bicycle and car as examples. Race bicycle tyres are in general very slim (some change to this in the last few years, but lets take this 20 years back) because at the time surface contact was considered a big energy loss. But to avoid the rim and to minimize contact area race tyres were develop got very high psi. The tyre "walls" is almost none excistant on these tyres, because you wanted to lean into a high speed turn and risk a sidewall collapse. The down dide to under inflation such a tyre is it can easy come off its rim.

Now on a car you have a contact side and ture side walls. The car don't lean in turns do the tyre is designed in a very different way. Under inflating this design could cause a sidewall collapse due to wear in an non intenden way because the sidewalls are not designed for grib and road friction. 

Now our EUC seems to be something inbetween these designs, except the Z10 as they had to put rounded lean yyre on it due to centrifugal forces resulting in gyro effect as the wheel pick up spinspeed. 

Reguardless I am 120% agreeing that under inflated tyre from its intended design put you at risk of bad things happening, and it can come out of the blue very very fast.

That is also why I think as customers we should as demand tyres developd for our EUC ridestyle rather than taking a bike wheel design. 

And in this reguard the Z10 is clsss leader.. As for ride comfort maybe not so much but as for how to turn the wheel at low, high speeds and in different turn style, great. 

So to bring back to the KS16X I think this is partly why it takes some longer time to adjust to this wheel. From what I gather yhose who like the KS16X tend to not have issues with Z10 ridestyle or even liked that. 

I just hope that I get my own KS16X so I can can give tips on how to practical accustom myself to this new wheel. 

I expect it to behave and ride different to my KS18L amd how I recall my V8. 

[Mike Paolini]

11 minutes ago, Unventor said:

And in this reguard the Z10 is clsss leader.. As for ride comfort maybe not so much but as for how to turn the wheel at low, high speeds and in different turn style, great. 

So to bring back to the KS16X I think this is partly why it takes some longer time to adjust to this wheel. From what I gather yhose who like the KS16X tend to not have issues with Z10 ridestyle or even liked that. 

@Unventor  100% on your post too.

As for the Z10, I love this wheel and the EUC it belongs to - if were supported in the US, I would have gone with it over the KS16x I think.   The KS16x is like 80% z10 thanks to the 3", possibly as high as 90% when you consider the launch problems that they both are experiencing (and the polarize opinions around it).  

I'm starting to wish I had gone with the Nikola 100v at this point.   
 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

11 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

I wonder if the second batch will have the same tire.

The Dalishen tire is still used but also the Chao Yang tire CYT H-5146 is planned for the 2nd batch.

[ir_fuel]

4 hours ago, Unventor said:

Now I have yet to ride the KS16X, so I think blaming sll on tyre is just an easy way out. Now I said it very blunt. 

I do not recall the debate for tyre has been this hot ever on any other previous wheel. 

So this is what I do think is goi g on. Partly due to the motor, algorithm/fw optimisation, maybe a tiny bit on the tyre, but mostly down yo rider. 

The Z10 got some of the debate too but since no other real option people rode and either massively like or disliked it. Other options are out there with 3" wide tyre. But it does have different motor amd on oaper the KS16X is the most powerfull torque wise on the market right now in it size atleast. 2200W nominated or 4200W peak, combined that with 16". 

A massive force in any machine or device often leads to vibrations, maybenot always but still often. When a user/rider demands a lot of forve question is how well you can keep this under control. To me it seems that heavier riders tesd to succeed more. 

Now if the new firmware change this all great and dandy, but I still think it is down to adopt and learn on this wheel on a subconscious level. This some seem better at than others. 

I might have to swallow my statement but to me it just seems plane silly to rush out buying different tyres without testing the wheel first and playing around with tyre pressure. Just because some say they don't like and the all talk is about this seems to me the behaviour of lemmings, following the mob. 

I guess it comes down to high user expectations and the race is to make the one and only wheel to rule them all... Which is not going to happen. So this one wheel got much heat around it. 

 

I don't agree.

As I said I had plenty of wheels, different diameters, different widths, and I NEVER had wobbles under braking. And now all of the sudden I need to learn how to ride again?

Sorry, I tested everything there is to test on this wheel. Symmetric foot position, asymmetric, bent knees, locked knees, feet straight, feet at an angle, feet more forward, feet backward, sticking wheel against one leg, clamping wheel with both legs etc etc. I have 200km on the wheel now and I spent plenty of time getting the braking right as it is super important for me to get confidence when riding on paved roads.

Nothing helps. The best that happens is that it wobbles a bit less. The only thing that works and gives a stable wheel under braking is lowering the pressure to a ridiculously low value (1.4bar) making the wheel very very "balloon" feeling (and I fear flats). 

Also as you state, no other wheel had this discussion before, so all riders here can adapt to no matter what wheel they get, but all of the sudden the KS16X is the only wheel where riders need to learn to ride again?

So yes, I am willing to test another tire.

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

So to bring back to the KS16X I think this is partly why it takes some longer time to adjust to this wheel. From what I gather yhose who like the KS16X tend to not have issues with Z10 ridestyle or even liked that. 

My other wheel is a Z10 and I love it.

[stephen]

10 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

My other wheel is a Z10 and I love it.

I know when i got my z10 i had to learn to ride again , yes it wobbles, yes it wobbles when braking and found it weird to turn at first but i have none of these now , maybe because the 16x is a cross between z10 and a standard wheel you might find it different from other wheels you've had , it's all a bit weird to me also 🤔

Edited August 16, 2019 by stephen

[ir_fuel]

1 minute ago, stephen said:

yes it wobbles, yes it wobbles when braking

My Z10 is rock solid. Never had the slightest wobble.

[Patton250]

2 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

My Z10 is rock solid. Never had the slightest wobble.

My Z10 past 20 psi sucks to ride. I mean big time.  It’s extremely unpredictable and all over the place. Not the slightest bit of fun. Now at 15psi  it’s very comfortable and fun. It still turns weird compared to all other wheels but at least it’s comfortable and safe.