KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

[Mike Paolini]

@Jon Stern  I get wobbles every so often, mostly during forceful breaking, but not always, and  my rider weight of 220+ pounds.

I don think it has much to do with finding the magic tire pressure or even tire brand.  In fact I'd be more troubled if it did, because that would suggest to me it's a matter of vibrations and possibly harmonics produced by the tire reaching the controller/gyro.    Certainly some of it could be rider confidence and being unnerved at the higher pressure from the great amounts of bumps transmitted, but that is a separate thing. 

Anyway, what have come to suspect is that the wobbles are a combination of either motor timing control not being smooth and/or the peddle tilt shifting from RF interference (like we saw with the BT).  RF interference would possibly also account for why some people see it another not so much - not all areas are equal when it comes to RF power, strength and frequencies. 
And I really suspect this RF part, because it would make sense that the softer tire pressures might mask the peddle tilt movements with riders simply thinking it was lack of pressure in the tire, and that an under inflated tire would dampen their effects.  And on the other end of the spectrum, at higher pressures, that peddle tilt if rapid, would certainly cause PIO's which could result in wobble.   

(Also lets dispense with this, it's the rider technique bs this point - pretty much everyone having the wobbles has a lot of miles on the KS16x at this point, and many more on other EUC's - and the discussion of wobbles isn't anywhere near for other EUC's what it is for the KS16x).

I guess what I'm saying , is I don't think chasing tire PSI (certainly I've tried it from 19 PSI upto 45 PSI, with 33/35 PSI being about my current sweet spot), or brand or tread is going to address this.  It's going to have to be fix via King Song firmware, and possibly hardware.

P.S. I'd be very concerned about running an under inflated tire, there are reasons the manufacture specifies tire pressure, and the stock one is intended for 35-45 PSI.  Just my 2 cents.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Mike Paolini

[chrisjunlee]

18 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

I'm suspecting that you're not getting wobbles because you're 200lbs.

After getting near-death wobbles this afternoon I pulled over and let out more air. I'll have to check, but I wouldn't be surprised if I'm at 15psi now!

Now I get hardly any wobbles, but the ride is a bit softer than I'd like, and I'm afraid of getting a puncture.

I'm getting more and more tempted to chance to the CST tire.

Keep us posted on what PSI works out for you. 

I felt best at 18 PSI @137 lbs. Pillow cushy, wobbless straight acceleration to infinity and beyond. Felt like I had a cheat code turned on.

I bumped it up to 22 PSI for the past 100 miles make things interesting - I get wobbles, but I'm hoping I somehow learn from it.

[chrisjunlee]

19 minutes ago, Gustesta said:

Regarding the wobbling, try to stand up still tight when you start getting it.

Jon is a pretty experienced rider.

A lot of good riders are having wobbles on this wheel. I have them, and the only thing that solved it was lower tire pressure.

At this point I've put on over 500 miles on the 16X, and it's something I've just accepted about this wheel.

Edited August 16, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[Jon Stern]

25 minutes ago, Gustesta said:

Regarding the wobbling, try to stand up still tight when you start getting it.

 

Tried that!

That's how I avoided going down.

Edited August 16, 2019 by Jon Stern

[Jon Stern]

What's the CYT model number, and where can I get one (I'm in the US)?

[chrisjunlee]

5 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

Tried that!

me: this wheel is wobbly
conventional wisdom: it's the rider, it'll go away after a couple miles
me at 500 miles: this wheel is wobbly - but I kind of like the wobbles now! 🤣

[Genghis]

3 hours ago, DragonFZ said:

Just got my email from Jason and balance paid... this is going to be a long week

I also got the email and will soon be joining the Wobble Gang.  Hopefully it gets resolved, as this is really a leap of faith for me.  Especially as my first EUC.

[chrisjunlee]

2 minutes ago, Genghis said:

I also got the email and will soon be joining the Wobble Gang.  Hopefully it gets resolved, as this is really a leap of faith for me.  Especially as my first EUC.

You're going to love it - but it might take you 100 miles to get there, so hang in there

[Genghis]

4 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

What's the CYT model number, and where can I get one (I'm in the US)?

I spent an evening scouring back over this thread to copy and paste information that I might be able to use later. 

The CYT (Chao Yang Tire) was a CYT H-5146 (16x3.0 / 76-305) on the pre-production that was in NY, and last I remember Houseofjobs had it.  I have no clue where one would purchase this in the US.

[Jon Stern]

Just now, Genghis said:

I spent an evening scouring back over this thread to copy and paste information that I might be able to use later. 

The CYT (Chao Yang Tire) was a CYT H-5146 (16x3.0 / 76-305) on the pre-production that was in NY, and last I remember Houseofjobs had it.  I have no clue where one would purchase this in the US.

People seemed to be saying that that tire also required very low pressures to make the ride decent.

[Genghis]

2 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

You're going to love it - but it might take you 100 miles to get there, so hang in there

Thanks!  I'm hoping it will be fine.  I'm not too concerned for the beginning as I will be taking very small baby steps to begin with.  So I doubt I would even encounter the wobble during my first few weeks.  So maybe it will get resolved by the time I'm more comfortable.  That's the plan at least.

[chrisjunlee]

4 minutes ago, Genghis said:

I doubt I would even encounter the wobble during my first few weeks

Oh that's precious 😆

11 minutes ago, Genghis said:

I spent an evening scouring back over this thread to copy and paste information that I might be able to use later. 

Here's my wheelog for the 16X - it's much more concise, and I update there with the mentality of referring back later. Hope it helps

[mrelwood]

 

25 minutes ago, Mike Paolini said:

Anyway, what have come to suspect is that the wobbles are a combination of either motor timing control not being smooth and/or the peddle tilt shifting from RF interference

...

The problem with your theory is that no matter how much the firmware or motor oscillates back and forth, there is absolutely nothing the wheel can do to engage a sideways motion. A wobble is movement purely from left to right. Even Kuji’s video of the worst possible front to back oscillation on the 16X didn’t seem to introduce any wobbling from side to side.

I have tried a lot of replacement tires on my EUCs. One of the tires I ordered from China had been folded for travel. I mean really, the opposite ends of the tire pulled and taped together. Needless to say, I was never able to make the tire run straight, so it was useless because of... wobbling. If the tire runs from left to right and back on every rotation, it is doing the best it can to make the wheel wobble. And it worked, the wheel was prone to wobbles.

I made my MSX tubeless, and due to the difficulty of getting it to seal when pumping with a manual pump, I was not able to center the tire as well as I did with the inner tube on. And guess what... I get wobbles now, that get worse at certain pressure levels.

The tire KS decided to use in the 16X is in my understanding literally a noname brand. I would not be at all surprised if they have an issue in their manufacturing, storage or teansport that makes the tires prone to wobbling. Or the way the inner tube is installed doesn’t make it sit right (3.0” inner tube is a lot more difficult to get running straight than even a 2.5” one).

Furthermore, replacing the 16X tire with a different kind seems to have helped the tendency to wobbling for many people.

 

25 minutes ago, Mike Paolini said:

P.S. I'd be very concerned about running an under inflated tire, there are reasons the manufacture specifies tire pressure, and the stock one is intended for 35-45 PSI.  Just my 2 cents.

The stamped tire inflation guidelines have been discussed and pretty much debunked before. They don’t seem to have much to do with the tire itself, but the intended purpose.

For example, I use knobbly tires on my seated self-balancing scooter for the winter snow. The tires are meant for motocross, where it must withstand constant landings of a heavy motorcycle, and where the rear wheel is skidding on dirt most of the time. I have them installed in a light PEV that has no suspension (other than the tires themselves) and a max speed of 17km/h. Following the pressure guidelines would be simply quite stupid, since it is dangerously uncomfortable above 22psi.

Same goes for the knobblies on my MiniPro.

Also, the same car tires can be used on a granny wagon that weighs 1000kg and on one that weighs 2000kg. It’s obvious that the real life safe and comfortable pressure ranges aren’t the same.

I’m certain that none of the tire manufacturers have even considered their tires to be used in an EUC. Even if they would make an ”EUC tire”, they would likely just slab on a pressure range that they think most riders have been using.

My primary guideline for tire pressures on all my vehicles: Experiment & common sense.

[Genghis]

1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

2 hours ago, Genghis said:

I doubt I would even encounter the wobble during my first few weeks

Oh that's precious 😆

@chrisjunleeI think you misunderstood me.  I meant I probably won't have wobbles because I will be going through the baby steps I've seen online regarding how to learn how to ride.  Using a wall to balance myself.  Going forward only a few feet and stopping.  Repeat until I'm bored to death, while trying to increase the amount of distance between starting and stopping.   Learning to start unassisted and stopping unassisted, while also trying to increase distance.  Then learning slow turns, etc etc...  If I get death wobbles going less than 5 mph, then I definitely will be in trouble.  I do expect to be very uncoordinated for a little bit.  So the wobbles, I will encounter, will all be because of me.

So unless I can find a way to channel my inner BleepBloopBlop, I think I will be OK for a little while.  I hope it doesn't take me too long to get a little comfortable on my first EUC, but I'm not going to force it either.  We shall see... 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Genghis

[ir_fuel]

3 hours ago, Gustesta said:

Regarding the wobbling, try to stand up still tight when you start getting it.

That defeats a bit the purpose of braking.

I could simply brake less too, to avoid them, but I think you should be able to brake a wheel hard without the risk of falling off. 

 

And I also highly doubt it's rider error, as so many people have it here. Also wondering if lowering the pressure to such ridiculous errors isn't a way of masking a different issue.

[ir_fuel]

7 hours ago, RoadRunner said:

I think sending the wheel to them would be better and cheaper. 

Cheaper?

I wonder what DHL would ask to ship a parcel of this weight internationally, oh yeah, including batteries for which they will require a ton of documents ...

[DragonFZ]

3 hours ago, Genghis said:

Thanks!  I'm hoping it will be fine.  I'm not too concerned for the beginning as I will be taking very small baby steps to begin with.  So I doubt I would even encounter the wobble during my first few weeks.  So maybe it will get resolved by the time I'm more comfortable.  That's the plan at least.

That's exactly my thinking. My 1st wheel too. I'm thinking by the time I learn how to ride an EUC (3-4 weeks). There will be a fix or update available.

[ir_fuel]

I wonder if the second batch will have the same tire.

[RoadRunner]

2 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

Cheaper?

I wonder what DHL would ask to ship a parcel of this weight internationally, oh yeah, including batteries for which they will require a ton of documents ...

Well i have send a few EUC‘s, just went to the post office paid about 11€ and that’s it.

As you live in Europe there wont be customs so nobody will check whats in the Box.

[ir_fuel]

Come on man, give me an excuse to unleash the horsepower in my garage on the autobahn another time 

[ir_fuel]

But anyway, back on topic. There are no more braking wobbles when hard braking from 40km/h since you changed that tire, and you do not ride an extremely low pressure?

[RoadRunner]

And for the wobble discussion, it’s definitely that shitty tire, i don’t get any wobbles on the cst tire, and no more adjustments for the on point perfect psi , rides perfect with any psi.

I ride it now on 2,3bar.

This tire is so much better, i can only say to you all change the tire, you will be amazed how the 16X will ride.

Edited August 16, 2019 by RoadRunner

[ir_fuel]

#roadtriptime !

[RoadRunner]

Here is another perfect example that the old tire is just shit.

My sister tried to ride the wheel when we got it, she rode a few meters and stepped of, she said she can’t ride it, scares the shit out of her and she never rode it again.

Yesterday she tried it again with the new tire and her jaw fell down, she absolutely loves it, she said it rides just normal now like the XL.

[RoadRunner]

22 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

But anyway, back on topic. There are no more braking wobbles when hard braking from 40km/h since you changed that tire, and you do not ride an extremely low pressure?

Well i couldn’t make big tests on higher speeds as it’s raining here, but with normal riding i don’t get wobbles, also this random left to right shaking when hitting a pot hole or stuff like that went away.

My tire pressure now is 2.3bar same like on my XL.