KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

[Garrie Lim]

14 minutes ago, magicrobots said:

Here's the included charger spec. Looks like it's 1.5A. It still gets insanely hot.

Yes it’s 1.5A. 

[houseofjob]

15 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

Why isn’t my doing it? What do I have to do to make it happen?

If you're not used to dampening a normal high speed wobble/oscillation with favoring one leg / "carving" (or are a wheel hugger), then you might not be able to tell it apart from that.

It happened for me every time I would ride 25mph+ and try to make maneuvers at speed, especially if riding over rougher terrain.

[Patton250]

6 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

If you're not used to dampening a normal high speed wobble/oscillation with favoring one leg / "carving" (or are a wheel hugger), then you might not be able to tell it apart from that.

It happened for me every time I would ride 25mph+ and try to make maneuvers at speed, especially if riding over rougher terrain.

I’ve never gone 25mph on rough terrain before. 

Should I just ground this thing until they fix it? 

[houseofjob]

2 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

I’ve never gone 25mph on rough terrain before. 

Should I just ground this thing until they fix it? 

Hard to say, but I think you're probably fine then.

I've put quite a few miles on the preprod 16X while we were in limbo waiting for the board, etc, so it was feasible to ride, albeit not the exact same setup as the production line coming out now.

Just take precaution, not putting yourself in 'hard braking' scenarios, and wear gear, etc, and I think you'll be fine until they roll out the firmware that finally actually fixes the issue, whenever that's gonna be.

[Mike Paolini]

Second day of riding the KS16x, and I have to say I'm happy with it.   My plan is not to push it too hard and leave extra room for stopping so I don't have to break as hard as Kuji - at least until we get some official word on this.

Popped a new, short summary with my thoughts from the first 20 miles up as well, and tried to hold it to about 10 mins for those that are inclined.  

 

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, magicrobots said:

Hey folks, took the 16x on about 30 miles of off road trails and hard riding today.  It was an incredible performer. I had the riding mode in the medium setting for most of the time, and did find that at 25mph and above it had a jittery feel to it.

Then I switched to experient and the wheel feels solid as a rock. I've only gotten it up to about 27mph as I was on a pretty bumpy crushed gravel path but the wheel felt AMAZING.

Climbing very technical trails with large (helmet sized) rocks and huge roots the wheel jumped over them all eagerly. I am absolutely in love.

I didn't try to reproduce Kuji's hard acceleration -> hard deceleration but I did go up and down huge hills and did some drops (nothing huge, maybe 2 - 3 feet tops) and had no issues.

The wheel did make an AWFUL noise at one point, but we found there was a stone stuck between the wheel and the housing so it was going berzerk trying to accommodate the new variable in the system.

Got some nice scratches from crashing into boulders or over stone walls. Developing a nice patina - but the shell held together wonderfully - not fragile as far as I can tell.

If you want to see some footage there's a little bit on my instagram story @magicrobots.

Loved your report. But if a 3 foot drop isn't huge, then I'm at a loss 

[houseofjob]

2 minutes ago, Dave U said:

Ride below 24 mph until they have a fix, enjoy your new wheel.

If you want to go 25+ pull out your KS18xl or Nikola.

er, are you putting words into my mouth? 

[Dave U]

4 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

er, are you putting words into my mouth? 

My bad 

 

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

Yup, they didn't fix the high speed bobbling I see. (BTW, every time KS claimed to have fixed during the pre-prod run, it was never fixed, no change here I guess).

FYI, through the pre-prod run, we were told to keep it on experienced mode, as the issue became worse with any less hard mode.

I guess this is why Kuji has been quiet even though on IG it seems he received his wheel much earlier (God bless him, I am not prepared to 'test' a wheel that hard, not that I particularly believe in 'hard braking' to begin with).

 

And FYI also, this is not oscillation IMHO, it happens evenly on both sides.

To prevent confusion of the normal high speed wobbling/oscillation, I've been calling it a bobbling issue, as it reminds me of a bobble head doll; wheel body bobbles as one piece, not pedal-to-pedal / side-to-side.

I encourage everyone to play the video in fullscreen mode and at 1/4-speed. Then you can clearly see it's not a wobble but a forward-backward oscillation. Strangely this looks identical to the MSuper V3s+ 'oscillation' firmware bug that I was involved with a couple of years ago. Except in the Gotway case after about 4 oscillations the wheel turned off.

I can tell you that this kind of oscillation is not survivable (meaning you can't ride it out no matter how good you are).

I could never have trust in the 16X until it was confirmed fixed, because you can never know exactly what may put it in the oscillation mode. You could be cruising at 20-mph and hit a large bump that triggers it.

Kuji Hard Acceleration & Braking Test

Edited July 29, 2019 by Marty Backe

[Dave U]

19 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

I’ve never gone 25mph on rough terrain before. 

Should I just ground this thing until they fix it? 

Ride below 24 mph until they have a fix, enjoy your new wheel.

If you want to go 25+ pull out your KS18xl or Nikola.

[Kuji Rolls]

7 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

So not sure how many of you have seen eWheels.com note on the KS16X getting up and running, and yes I knew about this yesterday but didn't feel this was my information to share at the time - but since it has been released, but I feel it is important to distribute in light of the conversation on wobbles during breaking I'm experiencing at mid and higher speeds.  Yes it may just be me being out of shape and getting my sea legs on this thing, but on the other hand I have zero wobbles below say 15 mph, just a sort vibrations I can feel which I am guessing is caused by the stronger magnets having their field crossed.  That is, I'm not sure it's limited to HARD acceleration and deceleration, and am a little worried it's actually more tied to speed and breaking force requested including moderate levels.

Here's the section of the email & the link:  

Current Firmware Bugs: 

There are two issues in first v1.01 release; the first is that the battery level seems to always display 100%, irrespective of the actual state of the charge.  

The other is that Kuji has found in his extreme limit testing, that under very hard acceleration, follow by deceleration, the 16X can become unstable. KS are working on a firmware fix for these issues shortly. 

Kuji Hard Acceleration & Braking Test

 

So to help clarify from my side, it is limited to HARD acceleration followed by immediate braking. Ive cruised at top speed followed by hard braking without any problems. So, braking isnt the issue, its the hard acceleration (much more preventable). Kingsong has been pushing out new firmware updates and made vast improvements to the motor control in the last month, so i believe that this will be a simple firmware update soon. A hard hill climb demanding the same power didnt result in this problem. 

Other than this motor control problem, the 16X has been a blast to ride. 

[meepmeepmayer]

I wonder what the mechanism behind the oscillation is. The wheel seems to have delayed balancing (possibly aggravated by the softer ride modes with their own delay) in these fringe situations*, which leads to a self-amplifying oscillation instead of to a stable, level equillibrium = self-balancing.

I wonder how Gotway fixed this/never had this (one firmware bug aside) and Kingsong will fix it. Do they know the mechanism that is causing this? Is it fixed by some heuristic attempts, or can they guarantee the problem can't happen again because the exact reason is known?

(* Situations: the accelerate-brake maneuver for the 16X, a bump for the ms3 bug, and also a bump/extra demand on the batteries on the V8)

edit: maybe it's this:

Wikipedia PID controller

Quote

The use of the PID algorithm does not guarantee optimal control of the system or its control stability (see § Limitations of PID control, below). Situations may occur where there are excessive delays: the measurement of the process value is delayed, or the control action does not apply quickly enough. In these cases lead–lag compensation is required to be effective.

Quote

Some processes have a degree of nonlinearity and so parameters that work well at full-load conditions don't work when the process is starting up from no-load

Or vice versa. Maybe the quick/strong change in lean is what causes the oscillation to start.

Wikipedia lead-lag compensator

Quote

A lead–lag compensator is a component in a control system that improves an undesirable frequency response in a feedback and control system.

Edited July 29, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[magicrobots]

50 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Loved your report. But if a 3 foot drop isn't huge, then I'm at a loss 

I guess coming from onewheeling where people are doing full body height drops like madfolk, I had to include that qualifier. 3' certainly feels big to me!

[Rywokast]

1 hour ago, magicrobots said:

Here's the included charger spec. Looks like it's 1.5A. It still gets insanely hot.

oh lol I was going by mikes video he started the charger was 2.5... guess he read the wrong thing.. well that's lame

[Mike Paolini]

7 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

oh lol I was going by mikes video he started the charger was 2.5... guess he read the wrong thing.. well that's lame

My bad.

[Mike Paolini]

58 minutes ago, Kuji Rolls said:

So to help clarify from my side, it is limited to HARD acceleration followed by immediate braking. Ive cruised at top speed followed by hard braking without any problems. So, braking isnt the issue, its the hard acceleration (much more preventable). Kingsong has been pushing out new firmware updates and made vast improvements to the motor control in the last month, so i believe that this will be a simple firmware update soon. A hard hill climb demanding the same power didnt result in this problem. 

Other than this motor control problem, the 16X has been a blast to ride. 

@Kuji Rolls  Thank you man for both you work on this, and the clarification.   That video is insane!

(And I'm loving the KS16X so far).

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

Second day of riding the KS16x, and I have to say I'm happy with it.   My plan is not to push it too hard and leave extra room for stopping so I don't have to break as hard as Kuji - at least until we get some official word on this.

Popped a new, short summary with my thoughts from the first 20 miles up as well, and tried to hold it to about 10 mins for those that are inclined.  

 

If you're a WheelLog user, does it connect to the wheel and does it show the proper battery level?

[UniVehje]

10 hours ago, Rywokast said:

. i think theyre just being overly cautious

Maybe not even overly. We don’t know. They might have more information and tests done. Of course similar components can perform just the same as Gotways. It’s not like Kingsong  can’t make them go 60 km/h or Gotway has done extensive quality tests and made absolutely sure that their wheels are safe to go so fast. Naturally depends on the ride’s weight but there might be other issues also. There are also cars that have engines big enough to go 250 km/h but how about tires, handling, breaks, driver’s skills?

I suspect the main reason for limits is the sharp increase in likelihood of accidents and seriousness of them. If they want to increase their market globally, they cannot afford to have a lot of serious accidents in their reputation. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by UniVehje

[CampDylan]

8 hours ago, buell47 said:

Holy shit, now I'm happy that I get my 16X very late. In the meantime KS have enough time to fix it...I hope. 

Haha, same here, especially since it’s the first wheel I’ll ride in my life!  It’s been pretty entertaining reading all these updates, I’ve been copying & pasting all pertinent information into my”EUC” folder in OneNote for when mine arrives mid-August here in Honolulu.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

56 minutes ago, CampDylan said:

I’ve been copying & pasting all pertinent information into my”EUC” folder in OneNote

I had always done something like this and at some point I forgot. Thanks for the memory....I'll start again right away.

[Afeez Kay]

12 hours ago, Jon Stern said:

These are exactly the kind of unexpected issues that arise from late changes in a prosuct"'s development process.

When people applauded the change from a 2kW motor to a new 2.2kW one, I warned that this was risky. Maybe this new instability that Kuji has found is not related to the new motor, but certainly the earlier oscillation in the prototypes was.

Absolutely correct.. I made the same comment about the late change the motor. As a Head Of QA, I know first hand the issues that can arise from late scope change, especially to key components.

[Unventor]

5 hours ago, Kuji Rolls said:

Other than this motor control problem, the 16X has been a blast to ride. 

A huge thank you for the testing and feedback. 

How you where able to walk off that incident is pretty impressive. 

I suspect you knew it might come to show. But still impressive rider skills (hats off). 🎩😁

[Patton250]

2 hours ago, Unventor said:

A huge thank you for the testing and feedback. 

How you where able to walk off that incident is pretty impressive. 

I suspect you knew it might come to show. But still impressive rider skills (hats off). 🎩😁

 Quite the athletic move by him indeed. 

[Patton250]

8 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

Second day of riding the KS16x, and I have to say I'm happy with it.   My plan is not to push it too hard and leave extra room for stopping so I don't have to break as hard as Kuji - at least until we get some official word on this.

Popped a new, short summary with my thoughts from the first 20 miles up as well, and tried to hold it to about 10 mins for those that are inclined.  

 

Well done.  I agree with absolutely everything you said. I think the pedals are the best of all my of wheels. It’s very fast and very nimble. It does carve very well also. Plus it does look just plain awesome!!!!!   I’ll be glad when they get the battery percentage fixed though. 

[Patton250]

8 hours ago, Kuji Rolls said:

So to help clarify from my side, it is limited to HARD acceleration followed by immediate braking. Ive cruised at top speed followed by hard braking without any problems. So, braking isnt the issue, its the hard acceleration (much more preventable). Kingsong has been pushing out new firmware updates and made vast improvements to the motor control in the last month, so i believe that this will be a simple firmware update soon. A hard hill climb demanding the same power didnt result in this problem. 

Other than this motor control problem, the 16X has been a blast to ride. 

 I have a hard breaked mine from 31 mph down to zero also with no problems. Although I’ve never really tried to accelerate like you do. I don’t think I could anyway. You really know how to take off. :-) 

 The 16X that wiped out you were using was that a brand new one with the latest firmware like we all got this weekend?  Someone said you filmed that Saturday. Thanks