KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

This is not a firmware issue, but something resonate about the geometry of the wheel. They can bandaid it with firmware adjustments of the PID response, but this wheel is just fundamentally flawed.

Everyone knows you are just making that up. You might want to check your reasoning before posting if you want to be taken seriously. 

 

1 hour ago, Nils said:

I believe I get what you're saying from this and you previous posts, but if I were to simplify (and perhaps misconstrue) your posts it reads to me like:

1) The wheel is not performing acceptably and KS is working on addressing it  (i.e. the wheel is at fault, and will be improved)

2) It's not really a fault of this wheel as any wheel on earth would suffer the same under the same conditions due to to the general law of physics,  you're riding it wrong.

3) Whatever, KS still has better quality than all the rest

I'm no fan of hasty accelerations of breaking, so I agree with that it's not something to be recommended for anyone. Still, if 2) holds true then 1) seems weird, no?

That’s not at all what @US69 said or implied. He said that such extreme acceleration is not recommended to be done on any wheel. And he is absolutely correct, I have never seen anyone lean on any EUC like Kuji did to reveal the issue. I also agree that despite that, the issue must be fixed.

What is often lost when sharing and discussing issues at a discussion forum, is the actual extent of the issue. While the customers are just starting to get the 16X, so far it seems there is only one person in the world who can reveal the issue as a severe one. Comparing to the Nikola, where the number of confirmed cases on the forum alone got close to ten pretty fast, several of which were already toasted.

I suspect we won’t see a widespread issue with the 16X before it’s fixed by a firmware update. That doesn’t mean a good old mass hysteria doesn’t have enough time to spread though.

Edited July 29, 2019 by mrelwood

[Rama Douglas]

Everyone up in arms about the @Kuji Rolls 16x braking video. Guys, it's actually supposed to do that. It's a dual purpose wheel/pogo stick. Brake hard to get it bouncing good, and before you know it, you'll be able to slam dunk ON your wheel!!! Next time Kuji, roll with it...😜

Edited July 29, 2019 by Rama Douglas

[chrisjunlee]

1 hour ago, ir_fuel said:

There is so much out there on which we spend $2k that never last 10 years. Computers being the first thing that comes to mind.

My $600 thinkpad is going on 6 years strong . 

The work macbook pro's on the other hand...

[Jean eRide.ie Community]

55 minutes ago, prasket said:

You can barely get a $25,000 car to last 100,000 miles these days and that's with maintenance, why do you think a $2k machine will last that long?

I guess a moped can last close to that if maintained properly. 

The difference is on the battery loosing power after some years, may need replacement after 4-5 years, but maybe the cost of fuel in those years would have been higher than the battery replacement cost. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Jean Dublin

[Jean eRide.ie Community]

Has anyone done a 16X range test yet? 

I want to know if it performs as well as the 18L/XL, or if it is less or more efficient.

I guess the 2200w and the 16in diameter may make it more or less efficient. 

[Marty Backe]

8 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 

Everyone knows you are just making that up. You might want to check your reasoning before posting if you want to be taken seriously. 

 

That’s not at all what @US69 said or implied. He said that such extreme acceleration is not recommended to be done on any wheel. And he is absolutely correct, I have never seen anyone lean on any EUC like Kuji did to reveal the issue. I also agree that despite that, the issue must be fixed.

What is often lost when sharing and discussing issues at a discussion forum, is the actual extent of the issue. While the customers are just starting to get the 16X, so far it seems there is only one person in the world who can reveal the issue as a severe one. Comparing to the Nikola, where the number of confirmed cases on the forum alone got close to ten pretty fast, several of which were already toasted.

I suspect we won’t see a widespread issue with the 16X before it’s fixed by a firmware update. That doesn’t mean a good old mass hysteria doesn’t have enough time to spread though.

You need to get out more often 

 

[chrisjunlee]

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Everyone knows you are just making that up. You might want to check your reasoning before posting if you want to be taken seriously. 

Oh the sweet sweet irony of that statement .

I agree I did overreact. However, if this is a firmware issue, it's puzzling to me why it's taking so long to fix it.

Edited July 29, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[BleepBloopBlop]

8 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Oh the sweet sweet irony of that statement 

It does seem you have a BS in Physics followed up by a Masters in CS so I'd say you do have the necessary education. What we really lack is quality video in a controlled situation where one could actually make an informed conclusion on what is occurring in the wheel. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by BleepBloopBlop

[Graniteone]

Wow!  This is becoming comical at best. Time to go for a ride. Just don't do it like Kuji lest you splatter yourself on the sidewalk unless of course you are Kuji. 

[chrisjunlee]

12 minutes ago, BleepBloopBlop said:

It does seem you have a BS in Physics followed up by a Masters in CS so I'd say you do have the necessary education. What we really lack is quality video in a controlled situation where one could actually make an informed conclusion on what is occurring in the wheel. 

Oh, I wasn't even alluding to that, nor would that really help here - not like I specialized in nonlinear systems. Although I know just enough to appreciate how subtle resonance issues can be.

I was more poking fun at how we're all armchair conjecturing and just tossing around opinions here. Nothing wrong with that of course

[Mike Sacristan]

The clip of Kuji sort of reminded me of the acceleration and braking tests performed here at 03:27 (time embedded in the link):

 

[ir_fuel]

I never understood how you can do those kinds of tests correctly. You only know you are at the limit of the wheel (braking/accelerating) when you overpower it. How can you be sure that in the above video either of those wheels isn't capable of doing better if you lean even harder?

[Cracka]

20 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Oh, I wasn't even alluding to that, nor would that really help here - not like I specialized in nonlinear systems. Although I know just enough to appreciate how subtle resonance issues can be.

I was more poking fun at how we're all armchair conjecturing and just tossing around opinions here. Nothing wrong with that of course

She said nonlinear systems

After reading your posts I think you should stick with one of these and be done with it!

[chrisjunlee]

1 hour ago, Jean Dublin said:

Has anyone done a 16X range test yet? 

I want to know if it performs as well as the 18L/XL, or if it is less or more efficient.

I guess the 2200w and the 16in diameter may make it more or less efficient. 

Idea: To get motor efficiency me can do a simple integration over time (Watts(t)*dt). We also get the benefit of  shorter, easier controlled distances (controls: distance, tire pressure, rider weight, velocity, slope, etc). Our dt is limited to half a second, but it would be good enough as long as we're not integrating over start/stops.

Would also eliminate any advantages the 16x would have with its fresh battery.

Edited July 29, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[Mike Sacristan]

3 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

I never understood how you can do those kinds of tests correctly. You only know you are at the limit of the wheel (braking/accelerating) when you overpower it. How can you be sure that in the above video either of those wheels isn't capable of doing better if you lean even harder?

For a 65kg rider it is quite a physical feat to lean X amount where X is near the limit of what the person can achieve.
I am sure there is a kind of physical cue. I weigh 64kg and have to put in quite a bit of effort just to get to 50kmh on my MSX.
If it was just a matter of doing X more effort beyond my max then I could be doing one arm pull ups.  

[ir_fuel]

Maybe you need to be heavier to be able to give it more power

[Marty Backe]

24 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

I never understood how you can do those kinds of tests correctly. You only know you are at the limit of the wheel (braking/accelerating) when you overpower it. How can you be sure that in the above video either of those wheels isn't capable of doing better if you lean even harder?

I agree. These tests are entertaining and provide some insight but are in no way definitive.

Done properly, they would be repeated until the rider over-leaned and face-planted. By the very nature of our one-wheeled machines, they can never be comparatively tested unless the rider is willing to risk life and limb.

Likewise any speed tests. They have little value unless a face-plant is included.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Marty Backe

[ir_fuel]

Just now, Marty Backe said:

I agree. These tests are entertaining and provide some insight but are in no way definitive.

Done properly, they would be repeated until the rider over-leaned and face-planted. By the very nature of our one-wheeled machines, they can never be comparatively tested unless the rider is willing to risk life and limb.

Likewise and speed tests. They have little value unless a face-plant is included.

Or these need to be tested in lab conditions. On a threadmill and with a machine applying weight and lean angle  

[Mike Sacristan]

3 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Maybe you need to be heavier to be able to give it more power

Totally true! I've tried with weighted gloves, kettlebells, weighted vests and shopping bags.
I could stand upright holding a kettlebell and stretch my arms out and the wheel would just accelerate forever until I put my arms back down again out of pure fear.
Weighing as little as I do the wind pushes me upright at high speed so I have to lean even harder. I don't have infinite dorsiflexion (actually below average) so I end up on the balls of my feet.

Bigger wheel (my MSX) = more lean. Which is why I am eyeing the new 16 inchers.

[ihiiiiii intensifies]

[Rywokast]

10 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Totally true! I've tried with weighted gloves, kettlebells, weighted vests and shopping bags.
I could stand upright holding a kettlebell and stretch my arms out and the wheel would just accelerate forever until I put my arms back down again out of pure fear.
Weighing as little as I do the wind pushes me upright at high speed so I have to lean even harder. I don't have infinite dorsiflexion (actually below average) so I end up on the balls of my feet.

Bigger wheel (my MSX) = more lean. Which is why I am eyeing the new 16 inchers.

[ihiiiiii intensifies]

put bolts in your pedals that slot into your shoes like mj did and you can lean all you want

[Mike Sacristan]

2 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

put bolts in your pedals that slot into your shoes like mj did and you can lean all you want

Haha not what I had in mind when I set a goal of becoming one with my wheel. That would be a whole new level of face planting. 
I have been considering some kind of SPD system though, preferably with the easy multi-directional/release SH56. 

[Rywokast]

3 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Haha not what I had in mind when I set a goal of becoming one with my wheel. That would be a whole new level of face planting. 
I have been considering some kind of SPD system though, preferably with the easy multi-directional/release SH56. 

yes i cant imagine crashing at 50 kph with the wheel attached to your feet... think it would literally rip your legs out lmao.. something like that would be awesome.. could also allow for some cushioning on the pedal in lieu of grip tape to combat foot fatigue since they would be planted

[Jia Liu]

3 hours ago, Patton250 said:

 But that’s just it. I think what’s happening is a little more than nitpicking. People are flat out accusing KS and on the other thread Gotway  of out flat out irresponsibility or worse.  Some are even saying they should have not even released the 16X or Nikola.  Maybe I am just taking it all the wrong way but some are making these things sound catastrophic.  The whole time I’m saying to myself these things seem fine to me.  I don’t know man. I still say people are expecting too much from China. The first four wheeler I bought my son when he was little was from China. The quality of that thing was nothing compared to the Yamaha four wheeler I bought from Japan. Not even close. 

Please don't spread this over all Chinese products. Bad products come from anywhere, no one mentioned Boeing 737 MAX yet??? I wonder why no EUC is made from other countries than China, if it was, it might cost twice more and have more issues, who knows. On the other hand, there are many wonderful products from China: my company is running BYD electric buses for all on campus transportations, the little insta360 One X camera many of us using, DJI drones which from amateurs to pros all use, etc, etc, the list can go on and on, they all serve me flawlessly.

I believe it's the normal growing pain when new innovation is being adopted, much less to do where it is produced.

Happy riding, cheers 

[Jon Stern]

Argh! FedEx tried to deliver my 16x a day early (even though an e-mail earlier in the day restated a Tues delivery). No one was home, so they'll try again tomorrow.

[Rywokast]

20 minutes ago, Jia Liu said:

Please don't spread this over all Chinese products. Bad products come from anywhere, no one mentioned Boeing 737 MAX yet??? I wonder why no EUC is made from other countries than China, if it was, it might cost twice more and have more issues, who knows. On the other hand, there are many wonderful products from China: my company is running BYD electric buses for all on campus transportations, the little insta360 One X camera many of us using, DJI drones which from amateurs to pros all use, etc, etc, the list can go on and on, they all serve me flawlessly.

I believe it's the normal growing pain when new innovation is being adopted, much less to do where it is produced.

Happy riding, cheers 

its because gotway and kingsong are very small companies with basically no financial backing i believe, i think this is more of a seat of their pants type thing a lot of the time, kingsong to a lesser extent of course they dont pump out nearly as many wheels or as quickly as gotway but they are both being assembled mostly by hand by less than ideal *cough* gotway *cough* workers, and with pretty much no oversight.. its not like theyre multi billion dollar car manufacturers with limitless resources and funding, 100 years of research and testing and extremely strict, government mandated safety protocols, made with exact precision by robots in a billion dollar factory xD Inmotion and ninebot have no reasonable excuse though as they are both backed by huge multi million dollar companies and have infinitely more resources than KS or GW.. china can produce the quality of items that you are willing to buy.. you want something foolproof that will last for decades you can have it if you pay more, you want a cheap piece of garbage produced by the millions for pennies you can also have it.. if these were to be made in the US or similar they would be 10x the price, come out with new models way less than half as often, and be very strictly regulated and locked down to meet government standards.. youre not getting a new wheel every 6 months for the cost of two weeks pay that has safety limits decided by you, that you are able to tinker with and change whatever you want easily.. for some reason i just pictured apple making an EUC lmao, broken pedal? we'll have to replace the motor and batteries as well as both pedals with tools the average person doesnt have, with apple branded parts from an apple specialist it will cost around 10 grand.. honestly its better if you just upgrade to the newer model which has 50 wh more battery and weighs 500 grams less, its only 20k you might as well... oh you want a trolley handle? thats an addition 5k

Edited July 30, 2019 by Rywokast