New Begode "Hero" Suspension Wheel

[EMA]

v11 has a double chamber, no damper. it's not a classic air shock like mtb

Edited November 26, 2021 by EMA

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Are you confident that the airsprings within the V11 have zero fixed oil damping?

Yes. I have disassembled two V11 shocks. It’s just a straight tube with a piston. There is a bit of thick oily substance to take care of the lubrication, but the piston is solid, no damping mechanism of any kind except the friction that is naturally present with the shock and the external rails.

Edited November 26, 2021 by mrelwood

[Planemo]

Then I can only assume that the amount of stiction going on from all the moving parts is sufficient to keep things somewhat under control.

Very poor to use stiction as a damping medium. I had no idea the V11 was like this.

Without any damping or stiction the system would be totally uncontrolled, would be like a pogo stick. I have tried riding an MTB without any damping, it was horrific.

[winterwheel]

The review lost all credibility for me when it started out slamming the EX, I have a lot of wheels to ride, the EX is my go to wheel for summer riding. Piling on to a wheel you don't really ride yourself to get clicks on your video doesn't really do it for me. Then it goes on to bang the V11 as not good for off-road. This couldn't be more wrong. We have a crew of single track mountain bike riders here and the V11 is their go to wheel. They take their wheels onto some pretty super hardcore stuff in the forest here, works great.

None of which is to take away from the Hero; I'm hoping it's great wheel, I see it as an S-18 with enough torque and range that I could trust it to carry me as a heavier rider through our long and sometimes quite technical group rides.

I detest power pads though, so those are a big negative for me. If I get a Hero at some point I'll have them off before I even get on the wheel for a first test ride. 

 

[Ronin Ryder]

1 hour ago, winterwheel said:

The review lost all credibility for me when it started out slamming the EX, I have a lot of wheels to ride, the EX is my go to wheel for summer riding. Piling on to a wheel you don't really ride yourself to get clicks on your video doesn't really do it for me. Then it goes on to bang the V11 as not good for off-road. This couldn't be more wrong. We have a crew of single track mountain bike riders here and the V11 is their go to wheel. They take their wheels onto some pretty super hardcore stuff in the forest here, works great.

None of which is to take away from the Hero; I'm hoping it's great wheel, I see it as an S-18 with enough torque and range that I could trust it to carry me as a heavier rider through our long and sometimes quite technical group rides.

I detest power pads though, so those are a big negative for me. If I get a Hero at some point I'll have them off before I even get on the wheel for a first test ride. 

 

At last someone who gets it. Often when you see someone slamming the EX, he actually never owned it, just repeated early pre prod version reviews where the reviewers didn't set up the suspension correctly. This doesn't seem to be different, hence why im sceptical on the feedback of this Hero suspension until i can test it and set it up myself...It probably wasnt set up correctly.

I would have interest only on the HS version. Unfortunately they seem to be releasing first the HT slow version. (slower than the EX).

Edited November 26, 2021 by Ronin Ryder

[Whalesmash]

The proprietary (?) air chamber is concerning to me. Unless it's a high quality chamber (which seems unlikely from past quality), they tend to leak. Without damping, the suspension system is basically the same as the V11 or EX with just a bit of mechanical advantage from the leverage of the linkages. Seems like Begode has the right idea, but might be getting the implementation a little wrong. To the very least, use a shock like the S18, not some proprietary thing. I had this wheel pegged as a potential rival to the S20 in terms of off road capability, but if that lack of damping turns out to be true, and the shock isn't aftermarket compatible, this wheel's going to be a bit of a wash. Now I just need to see a full on S20 review.

[Planemo]

19 minutes ago, Whalesmash said:

To the very least, use a shock like the S18, not some proprietary thing. I had this wheel pegged as a potential rival to the S20 in terms of off road capability, but if that lack of damping turns out to be true, and the shock isn't aftermarket compatible, this wheel's going to be a bit of a wash.

I agree, unless the suspension of a wheel allows me to service it, adjust spring/damper rates or even better replace the shock unit with a higher quality one (like you can with the S18) I'm not interested.

For the same reason I wouldn't buy an MTB with crap suspension, I'd rather ride a hardtail with fixed forks. Funnily enough I've just spent £400 reducing a slightly annoying amount of stiction on a set of £800 MTB forks. Now they are perfect, but my point is that if they didn't have the ability to be totally stripped down and upgraded/serviced as needed then they would be an £800 paperweight as far as I am concerned.

But then lots have people have bought V11's and EX's etc so clearly a lot of peeps don't feel the same about suspension as I do.

[mrelwood]

14 hours ago, Planemo said:

Then I can only assume that the amount of stiction going on from all the moving parts is sufficient to keep things somewhat under control.

Very poor to use stiction as a damping medium. I had no idea the V11 was like this.

Without any damping or stiction the system would be totally uncontrolled, would be like a pogo stick. I have tried riding an MTB without any damping, it was horrific.

Well, there is theory and then there is practice. I agree that relying on stiction is far from a good solution. But looking at the S18 which has a stellar suspension design in theory, all ~10 units I’ve tried had enough friction in the linkage that there was no point in adjusting the damping to anywhere other than to it’s minimum setting. Half of the units had even had their suspension linkage overhauled, and only one of them worked well enough for me to call it a good suspension. But even that one didn’t really need the shock’s damping to be increased from the minimum setting.

 

8 hours ago, Planemo said:

But then lots have people have bought V11's and EX's etc so clearly a lot of peeps don't feel the same about suspension as I do.

You have the burden of having too much experience on bike shocks, and it’s no wonder that you are dissatisfied with where the EUCs are when we have just passed the 1 year anniversary of even having any shocks in the first place. How were the bike shocks after one year, yada yada…

Anyway, since the EUC suspension is a continuation of our body joints’ shock absorbing properties in a slightly different way than on a bicycle, bike theory and EUC practice may not always line up perfectly.

 I’m most interested in seeing what Inmotion’s next design is, both in theory as well as in practice. I really wish we’d soon be hearing something about it though, as the info seems to be running slightly late when it comes to the markets in general.

[Ecca]

10 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Anyway, since the EUC suspension is a continuation of our body joints’ shock absorbing properties in a slightly different way than on a bicycle, bike theory and EUC practice may not always line up perfectly.

Yeah, definitely some differences there. Even people who do big jumps seem to prefer lighter weight over having suspension, so I feel like EUC suspension has a handful of other purposes at this point:

1. Better seated riding experience
2. If your knees/legs aren't in great condition
3. Help prevent rims getting dented in edge cases (in both the figurative and literal sense of 'edge case')

Because #1 and 2 are basically a direct replacement for legs, that ideal suspension setup is probably different from #2 (which fits more in line with the 'continuation' of legs idea).

It'd be cool to compile information about suspension setting preferences relative to body weight and what types of riding are done.

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, Ecca said:

Even people who do big jumps seem to prefer lighter weight over having suspension

I believe this will change once the tech evolves. After all the fundamental benefits are disputable. There has only been two successful suspension wheels (one of which I continuously bash due to the horrible execution of exactly the suspension), and both of them are quite far from a wheel that the big jumpers would choose anyway. But all that is definitely changing in 2022!

4 hours ago, Ecca said:

 

1. Better seated riding experience
2. If your knees/legs aren't in great condition
3. Help prevent rims getting dented in edge cases (in both the figurative and literal sense of 'edge case')

You are probably on the right track. For me though the biggest eureka moment was when after a few weeks on the V11 I realized how my focus had changed profoundly. I was no longer continuously scanning the road 6 ft in front of me, and because a more generic glance on the road was enough, I was looking around me much much more than before. The traffic, bicyclists, nature and sceneries, flowery summer skirts, etc. Despite my average riding speed increased noticeably, I’m sure I’m a much safer rider with the V11.

 Then there’s of course the surreal feeling of being able to woosh through bumpy forest tracks and rocky sections up to three times faster than with the MSX… 

4 hours ago, Ecca said:

It'd be cool to compile information about suspension setting preferences relative to body weight and what types of riding are done.

I’d say that it will be, once the tech evolves enough for the settings to be somewhat comparable between units. Currently they can be quite different, and specifically all over the place on the S18.

[eucVibes]

 

[EMA]

On 11/27/2021 at 2:00 AM, Ecca said:

Yeah, definitely some differences there. Even people who do big jumps seem to prefer lighter weight over having suspension, so I feel like EUC suspension has a handful of other purposes at this point:

1. Better seated riding experience
2. If your knees/legs aren't in great condition
3. Help prevent rims getting dented in edge cases (in both the figurative and literal sense of 'edge case')

Because #1 and 2 are basically a direct replacement for legs, that ideal suspension setup is probably different from #2 (which fits more in line with the 'continuation' of legs idea).

It'd be cool to compile information about suspension setting preferences relative to body weight and what types of riding are done.

i agree

if you like offroad susp makes the difference, but if you do "aggressive off" weight is really important, that's why v11 and RST really shine.

wheels at 30+ kg has downsides offroad, no matter what

[Bizra6ot]

Another problem for aggressive offroad is the low pedal clearance on landings or hard successive shocks when the shock absorber bottom out and it is easier to clip a pedal especialy in rocky trails

Edited November 28, 2021 by Bizra6ot

[Planemo]

On 11/27/2021 at 12:34 AM, mrelwood said:

Well, there is theory and then there is practice. I agree that relying on stiction is far from a good solution. But looking at the S18 which has a stellar suspension design in theory, all ~10 units I’ve tried had enough friction in the linkage that there was no point in adjusting the damping to anywhere other than to it’s minimum setting.

Agreed. The S18 has/had the potential to be excellent but they managed to totally fudge it up with friction. A great shame. At least it can be fixed though, albeit with a fair bit of effort.

On 11/27/2021 at 12:34 AM, mrelwood said:

You have the burden of having too much experience on bike shocks, and it’s no wonder that you are dissatisfied with where the EUCs are when we have just passed the 1 year anniversary of even having any shocks in the first place. How were the bike shocks after one year, yada yada…

Yeah I agree, suspension is very new to EUC's and you are quite correct - things will (should) only get better. Just to be clear, I am a big fan of suspension on EUC's, I think it's a great idea. But for me, I won't be putting my money down until it's done right. The other problem for me is that I don't want anything with less Wh than the Sherman, nor do I want anything bigger in overall size. I think I will be waiting a while!

[AtlasP]

6 hours ago, Planemo said:

The other problem for me is that I don't want anything with less Wh than the Sherman, nor do I want anything bigger in overall size.

You want a dragon and a unicorn to go with that? ;-p

I'm convinced that for every one Sherman owner that legitimately uses/needs that much battery (and sure, they exist), there are nine poser Sherman owners where you could secretly remove 500-1000Wh from their wheel and replace it with the equivalent weight in sand and they wouldn't catch it for 6 months to a year or more. (I.e. it's something they never make use of or at most do so once or twice a year.)

Edited November 28, 2021 by AtlasP

[Nick McCutcheon]

33 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

You want a dragon and a unicorn to go with that?

I'm convinced that for every one Sherman owner that legitimately uses/needs that much battery (and sure, they exist), there are nine poser Sherman owners where you could secretly remove 500-1000Wh from their wheel and replace it with the equivalent weight in sand and they wouldn't catch it for 6 months to a year or more. (I.e. it's something they never make use of or at most do so once or twice a year.)

At least for me, it's not a matter of pure range, but a matter of how long I can maintain top speed for. Less wH = greater voltage drop when travelling at a given speed = lower potential to reach higher speeds in the first place due to the lower voltage. I always charge my Sherman when it gets below about 35-40% at no load, because it's just not fun to ride anymore as I'm limited to below 44mph rather than between 44 and 49mph due to the voltage drop when riding at those speeds (these are wheel speeds, not true GPS speeds). This may sound absurd to many, but after experiencing what it's like to go places as fast as a car on a wheel and keep up with most traffic, going any slower for actual travel (non-leisure rides) is such a pain. So while I may not use the entire battery's range, the SIZE of the battery still allows me to ride faster for longer, something that would not be achievable on something like the RS-S.

[Planemo]

51 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

You want a dragon and a unicorn to go with that?

I did say I would be waiting a while....

51 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

I'm convinced that for every one Sherman owner that legitimately uses/needs that much battery (and sure, they exist), there are nine poser Sherman owners where you could secretly remove 500-1000Wh from their wheel and replace it with the equivalent weight in sand and they wouldn't catch it for 6 months to a year or more.

I get your point, but I think your 9 to 1 ratio might be skewed a little. All I know is that my group (7 of us with Shermans at the moment) all need the range. We rarely do less than 60 miles on a ride. Whilst stopping isn't a problem (for food/beer etc), finding a vendor/location that is happy to charge 7 Shermans, and more importantly do it without tripping their breakers is a problem. So ideally we don't want to worry about charging at all although for the 100 milers we have to, because no one wants to ride around with less than 20% in the tank, as Nick alludes to above. I however don't really need the speed to be maintained throughout, but I do very much like not having range anxiety and more importantly knowing the wheel is still rock solid with less than say 35% is, for me, worth it's weight in gold. I couldn't say that about my 1860Wh MSX when at speed.

I don't even go for a ride if it's less than 40 miles. I have to drive to all my riding locations and I won't bother if it's less than that. I sold my MSX purely because it was becoming an arse having to charge (sometimes twice due to sag) when in company with 6 Shermans.

[fbhb]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

I get your point, but I think your 9 to 1 ratio might be skewed a little. All I know is that my group (7 of us with Shermans at the moment) all need the range. We rarely do less than 60 miles on a ride. Whilst stopping isn't a problem (for food/beer etc), finding a vendor/location that is happy to charge 7 Shermans, and more importantly do it without tripping their breakers is a problem.

I couldn't agree more with this, although I do not go on any group rides but I will make use of every last bit of the Sherman's range on pretty much every ride I do, with absolutely No concern of not getting back home/to the car.

I have always been a believer in charging Fully to 100% and riding my wheels until somewhere around 20% under load. Since owning the Sherman this has obviously extended the potential mileage of my rides to over double any of the other wheels I've owned/own and now has me hitting between 80kms - 100kms or so every single ride!

[Freeforester]

 

[Freeforester]

The tear down:

 

[Eyss]

36 minutes ago, Freeforester said:

The tear down:

 

The suspension is definitely different from the first pictures. So did begode downgrade the suspension from the first batch? Does that mean there's a after market upgrade out there somewhere?

 

Was excited to see batteries in cases, but seeing the batteries have no additional protection is concerning. Seems like you'd have to use the stock power pads

[Freeforester]

The screen looks a little more useful than that on the Abrams, not that this is much of a dealbreaker…

[DavidB]

Interesting design. Couldn't help wondering if there was supposed to be a rubber gasket in the groove of the join of the front headlight/display cover.

It was a pity Kevin did not do an Ecodrift teardown as I am no wiser how the suspension works. But I guess his mandate was to put it together and not take it apart. 

He also needs to hold his phone/camera steadier on the handheld shots.

I wonder also about the weight of the batteries supported by a pretty light looking alloy cantilevered beam. OK they are suspended from the top alloy casting as well but the plastic casing looked pretty thin so I can't believe there is much structural strength there. Maybe the top alloy casting is so rigid ( it looks solid) they feel comfortable hanging a few kg of batteries off there. In normal riding OK, but a decent tumble maybe not. Time will tell.

[RagingGrandpa]

On 12/12/2021 at 7:49 AM, Freeforester said:

The tear down:

The battery cases bear structural load!
(Image above shows how the pedal hanger is rather unsupported in torsion, without a pack installed.)

Seems especially vulnerable to crash damage... wonder if we'll ever see a suspension EUC that's worthy of tumbling violently over rocks (like today's non-suspension EUC's often survive).

[DavidB]

On 12/14/2021 at 2:10 AM, RagingGrandpa said:

The battery cases bear structural load!
(Image above shows how the pedal hanger is rather unsupported in torsion, without a pack installed.)

Seems especially vulnerable to crash damage... wonder if we'll ever see a suspension EUC that's worthy of tumbling violently over rocks (like today's non-suspension EUC's often survive).

My thoughts exactly. I can see people adding alloy channel bracing to the front and back linking the top and bottom alloy frames.

Edit

Looks smooth here

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/tmhnJfcYnHg

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by DavidB
Addition