Incredibly bad look for this community.

[Roadpower]

54 minutes ago, Sumako said:

Looks like @GoGeorgeGois the only source expert in the room. Can’t be. There has to be other youtubers here.

Anyhow in NYC when the news is talking about eScooters, they are talking about these things: 

These escooters are on the threat of being heavily regulated and out right banned. There are a bunch of law suits as well. The news over there are expecting that either an ebike/emoped or kick escooter or this ugly ass thing to be the source of the actors death. Guess what’s not on the news radar? 

 

This may or may not be true. In the news story posted by @Rehab1  they post a picture of a standup e-scooter with rider. So in their minds they are including a PEV which is dangerously close to the EUC realm.

[Treatz]

56 minutes ago, Sumako said:

Actually, this thread was created as a cancel culture style hit job against a prominent youtube content creator

Nice try. This is called a distraction. The thread is about 1 thing and 1 thing only:  consideration of others vs. self entitlement. Nobody is cancelled so get your inhaler, breathe in, breathe out.  If anything it only increased someone’s view count quite mightily. 

 

[That Guy]

1 hour ago, Sumako said:

against a prominent youtube content creator who did a lot for the EUC community

I honestly don't think so. I think people are genuinely concerned about what was on the video. It is absolutely not about attacking a person or New Yorkers or anyone at all. I reckon we together need to agree that being recklessly silly and then publish a (now deleted) video boasting about it wasn't the wisest idea. That would nicely close the thread, I guess? :-)

[LanghamP]

7 hours ago, Treatz said:

You are correct. I misread and then popped off. So, I apologize and eat crow.

Likewise, my apologies for being excessively whiny about the destructive effects of automobiles in comparison to bicycles and PEVs.

[Sumako]

5 hours ago, Sumako said:

Actually, this thread was created as a cancel culture style hit job against a prominent youtube content creator who did a lot for the EUC community. This is happening because said creator posted !!!ONE!!! video that appears to show reckless actions by pro euc riders.  

Look at that! That’s a Hyperbolic post I made right there, right?

I made that strong post to basically illustrate how ridiculous this whole thread, really is. Nine pages of complete nonsense to promote a fear that EUC riders will start having no regard for the safety of pedestrians, all because of one video. That is about as ridiculous as me saying that the whole thread is a “cancel culture hit job against a youtuber”.

To be clear, no I don’t believe that this thread was an intended attack on @evX_Mick.  But it sure as  hell got some quote love. Didn’t it?

However in much in the same way you preachers fear that Mickey’s video would promote riders to be unsafe assholes to pedestrians, this attitude of fear and anger did inspire other commenters to take this “fear” to good people. Directly. See the folks who sponsored the race didn’t just get; “shame on you, I’ll never buy from you” emails. These people got vicious and violent emails threatening bodily harm. You okay with that? You think that’s cool?  Is that alright with y’all? 

People you don’t know (and obviously don’t care about) got negativly impacted because Preachers here inspired others with 6-9 pages of “Tempest in a Teapot” nonsense. 

No one was hurt due to the race. NO ONE!

It’s good vendors and dealers who have supported this community who are getting fucked by the negative spores of anyone wanting this toxic debate to continue on: “In fact I now believe that the condemnation of the Allycat race has not been strong enough“. Nah, it was strong enough. Message CLEARLY received. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Sumako

[That Guy]

I personally see this discussion as a very important step to greater maturity of EUC community. It looks like this is the very first time the topic of speedy group rides through the town is discussed openly and honestly. And I think this may be the first time people who make and publish such videos get negative feedback from their fellow EUC riders from around the world. Isn't it important to see how you are seen by your audience and understand the dislikes?

Absolutely there will be different opinions. And of course there always are people who struggle to manage their emotions on both sides of those opinions. Most importantly though, all of us agree that no one (NO ONE) should ever be hurt.

Edited June 16, 2021 by That Guy

[mrelwood]

 

16 minutes ago, Sumako said:

Nine pages of complete nonsense to promote a fear that EUC riders will start having no regard for the safety of pedestrians, all because of one video.

Since I have a feeling that no-one might bother to respond to your colorful post, I want to correct a few wild misunderstandings.

 If you want to understand what this thread is about, you’d have to read it. I think I was the only one even mentioning that a race like that might promote bad riding habits to future riders. The remaining ~8.99 pages are about something else.

And since the thread has been kept alive by opposing views, how come they are both “complete nonsense” to you?

16 minutes ago, Sumako said:

See the folks who sponsored the race didn’t just get; “shame on you, I’ll never buy from you” emails. These people got vicious and violent emails threatening bodily harm.

How have you come to know this piece of information?

16 minutes ago, Sumako said:

You okay with that? You think that’s cool?  Is that alright with y’all?

If that has happened, no, it’s not cool. It’s a wrong thing to do. And the riding in the video is also a wrong thing to do.

If people disagree with something, it doesn’t mean that they want everything in the opposing person’s  life to be bad and harmful from then on end. Nobody verbally attacked the riders, organizers, or the sponsors directly and as a whole. Only the individual acts. And that’s one of the key things in all debates and arguments, one needs to argue the act, not the whole person.

Take this post for an example. I disagree with most things you typed, but I’m not calling you names, I don’t wish you harm, and I don’t comment on your personality. I only respond to and comment on the things you typed.

16 minutes ago, Sumako said:

People you don’t know (and obviously don’t care about) got negativly impacted

Most of us believe that the whole community and even all riding in general could’ve gotten “negatively impacted” due to the race. Which in itself doesn’t really say anything, as a single viewer unsubscribing from EVX’s channel would already qualify.

16 minutes ago, Sumako said:

No one was hurt due to the race. NO ONE!

I heard of a guy who played Russian roulette and didn’t get a scratch. Stands to reason that Russian roulette is 100% safe, right? This was one of the most basic logical fallacies.

If the sponsors have indeed gotten threatening emails, NO ONE was hurt due to them either, were they?

16 minutes ago, Sumako said:

It’s good vendors and dealers who have supported this community getting fucked the negative spores of anyone wanting this toxic debate to continue one.

If the vendors and dealers have unknowingly sponsored an event that betrays behavior they don’t want to be associated with, they need to speak up and do something about it. This thread is probably the cause for Ewheels to have done just that, resulting also in the video been taken off YouTube. For which my appreciation for Ewheels has increased even further.

 

[Mark13i]

2 hours ago, Sumako said:

To be clear, no I don’t believe that this thread was an intended attack on @evX_Mick.  But it sure as  hell got some quote love. Didn’t it?

 @evX_Mick shot himself in the foot a bit by deliberately making a film in the convention of a first-person perspective (FPP) computer game.
But Mick is not a psychologist and doesn't know how the viewer's brain works.
A brain that does not accept the rider's behaviour he says:

- "That's not me! Don't give me that crap, I don't do that! I don't want to ride like that!" - and automatically identifies with the people it sees on film, the pedestrians (everyone is a pedestrian sometimes), the car drivers.
Nobody wants to be a Mob, or an NPC in someone else's game.

It was a film doomed to fail with a wide audience. 
If it had been released on mainstream television, there would have been many more outraged.

In contrast, @Hsiang made a traditional film (with a selfie stick) of the same event and there is no such outrage from the audience: - "It's Hsiang who makes mistakes, it's him who breaks the law - not me."

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Mark13i

[Mark13i]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

 

Since I have a feeling that no-one might bother to respond to your colorful post, I want to correct a few wild misunderstandings.

 

I will answer
@Sumako - you probably ride in the same style as you talk here.
You stick firmly to the chosen route, whatever happens you will be like a bullet fired, you will not give way to anyone even an inch of free space. The space in front of you must be yours alone.
You are AlleyCat.

There are only two places on earth where wild cats live anymore; 
enclosures in zoos - where they don't hurt anyone and have a substitute for pretend freedom,
and in circuses in cages so they can sometimes do learned tricks.

I hope you have enjoyed this text

[Chriull]

4 hours ago, Mark13i said:

@evX_Mick shot himself in the foot a bit by deliberately making a film in the convention of a first-person perspective (FPP) computer game

Maybe this intensified the whole thing - but imho the main point was the shouting at pedestrian and speeding by them:

(From  )https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/23589-incredibly-bad-look-for-this-community/?do=findComment&comment=372583)

 

I can not understand the mindset of one beeing  proud to frighten a little girl and her (grand)ma. And i do not want to try to understand this in any way!

This was his teaser and highlight of the video - the rest a very intense collection of "just" (?ny style normal?) adminstrative offences.

4 hours ago, Mark13i said:

In contrast, @Hsiang made a traditional film (with a selfie stick) of the same event and there is no such outrage from the audience: - "It's Hsiang who makes mistakes, it's him who breaks the law - not me."

This was a totally different story he has shown - braking and driving around pedestrians, stopping for bicyclist, no shouting, of course some offences. But a "nice" story told from a nice, smiling guy. Thanks @Hsiang for tricking me into wasting 15 minutes of my life.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Chriull

[LanghamP]

4 hours ago, Mark13i said:

contrast, @Hsiang made a traditional film (with a selfie stick) of the same event and there is no such outrage from the audience: - "It's Hsiang who makes mistakes, it's him who breaks the law - not me."

I thought the video by Hsiang was the video under controversy, and was wondering why it was such a big deal to some people.

Now where's the original video in question? Now I'm really curious.

[yoos]

14 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I thought the video by Hsiang was the video under controversy, and was wondering why it was such a big deal to some people.

Now where's the original video in question? Now I'm really curious.

the video was made and published be evx, and has been removed (or "made private") since. It is much more dynamic and hardcore than Hsiang's. Like cab driver vs street racer difference between the two.

[GothamMike]

On 6/13/2021 at 3:12 AM, Lex Smith said:

I used to work for central government in New Zealand and I can say this - when the half wits that run our country start looking to regulate any activity they don't understand their first port of call is to see what other countries/cities are doing.  So a ban in New York could well result in a ban in New Zealand.  While I realize no one outside of NZ gives a fuck about that it does illustrate the fact that the actions of a small group can have far reaching consequences.

The flip side is I left that job about 2 years ago and they'd only just discovered Facebook and Instagram at that stage so I'm guessing I'll have a few years of free riding before they clamp down :-)

Agreed NYC is a very influential city when it comes to Criminal Justice. It would take a simple City Council motion, or Mayoral decree to ban us 100%. But you Brooklyn Hipsters want your 15 seconds of Internet Glory.

You may think NYC is a bit lawless, nobody getting arrested and cops have more important things to do. Realize there are places where you are known to gather, bridges you must cross. Easy to have 2 cops and a box truck to confiscate all your PEVs. and you will never get them back, or they will be bounced around so much battery fires are likely.

 

[jimjam.nyc]

I get the appeal of an alley cat race.. But after you post your stuff online and the majority of the community has concerns.. Don't be so defensive.

Yelling at pedestrians to move is not real method of addressing the concerns of safety..  I think the issue is the people organizing this are making claims of having safety under control, and claim to have some level of expertise on the matter.. These guys are 100% excellent riders.  But maybe being open to criticism, and not being complete jerks to people on the streets or other riders in the community would quiet down some of the noise on events like this. Something tells me there is no interest in that, because its all publicity for a youtube channel or two.

Its great this went off without anyone getting hurt.. But that is not a measurement of how safe this was.

Guys not everyone in NYC has this ego thing going on. It doesn't take some immense skill to be safe here..  I ride every day here, i do like to rush of riding here.. But don't let these guys tell you that being safe will result in getting sideswiped and your stuff stolen.. (I think i saw that written in this thread..) That is complete BS. NYC for the most part is a friendly city with friendly people.. Just respect one another and people will respect you. Pretty much like everywhere else.. 

I hope there are more events in NYC by evx and the crew over here.. I just hope they can do things a little better next time.. and maybe just open up their minds a bit to other opinions. I really wanted to go check out the V12 when he was showing it, i have one on order..  I was hesitant because of the culture here, the closed mindedness lately from the EUC community in NYC is just becoming a bit of a turn off. 

Anyhow.. be safe out there, and try to be respectful even in heated debates like this one!

 

 

 

 

 

[GothamMike]

9 hours ago, Sumako said:

Look at that! That’s a Hyperbolic post I made right there, right?

I made that strong post to basically illustrate how ridiculous this whole thread, really is. Nine pages of complete nonsense to promote a fear that EUC riders will start having no regard for the safety of pedestrians, all because of one video. That is about as ridiculous as me saying that the whole thread is a “cancel culture hit job against a youtuber”.

To be clear, no I don’t believe that this thread was an intended attack on @evX_Mick.  But it sure as  hell got some quote love. Didn’t it?

However in much in the same way you preachers fear that Mickey’s video would promote riders to be unsafe assholes to pedestrians, this attitude of fear and anger did inspire other commenters to take this “fear” to good people. Directly. See the folks who sponsored the race didn’t just get; “shame on you, I’ll never buy from you” emails. These people got vicious and violent emails threatening bodily harm. You okay with that? You think that’s cool?  Is that alright with y’all? 

People you don’t know (and obviously don’t care about) got negativly impacted because Preachers here inspired others with 6-9 pages of “Tempest in a Teapot” nonsense. 

No one was hurt due to the race. NO ONE!

It’s good vendors and dealers who have supported this community who are getting fucked by the negative spores of anyone wanting this toxic debate to continue on: “In fact I now believe that the condemnation of the Allycat race has not been strong enough“. Nah, it was strong enough. Message CLEARLY received. 

What if E-Wheels and EUCO find out who you are? They will NEVER sell you another EUC, Sumako. You may not give a  flying flip about your reputation, but these companies do. Everyone will snicker at your second hand 2 year old EUC, that is held together with zip ties and Duck Tape. 

[mike_bike_kite]

Maybe, if the main interest of these "EUC enthusiasts" is just to get Youtube clicks, then the obvious way to counter them producing all this bad publicity is for the rest of us is to simply dislike their videos - not just one but all of them. It hurts my enjoyment of the sport when we get bad publicity. Here in the UK we recently went from being in a legal grey area to being outright illegal. That occurs because videos like this encourage local imbeciles to ride in the same style because it's "cool" and that's how they ride in NYC. 

[GothamMike]

I don't think these "cool, hip" NYC riders realize EUCs are basically dead in many British areas. But they got 500 clicks! Look at their posts on Telegram, they sound like a bunch of 13 year old girls. Childish.

Edited June 16, 2021 by GothamMike

[Gasmantle]

On 6/15/2021 at 3:27 PM, LanghamP said:

Bicycles, e bikes and e scooters, EUC's, and other PEV are not responsible for most traffic deaths.

 To me, it's ludicrous that you might have two PEV related deaths per year while ignoring the hundreds of automobile related deaths.

Your reasoning is fundamentaly flawed.

You aren't comparing like with like - cars are considerably more common and travel greater distances. You need to compare accidents per mile to evaluate anything meaningful. If there are a 1000 cars per EUC and they travel further then it's obvious the statistics will suggest cars are more dangerous.

Try working out how many accidents per mile there are in a car and compare that with accidents per mile on an EUC then share the figures - I'm sure they'll be considerably different.

[Mark13i]

23 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

Try working out how many accidents per mile there are in a car and compare that with accidents per mile on an EUC then share the figures - I'm sure they'll be considerably different.

Miles or hours spent on / in the vehicle. 

That the method of counting does not favor fast vehicles.  It may turn out that the profession of an astronaut is safer than an evening walk on the beach

[GoGeorgeGo]

1 hour ago, Mark13i said:

Miles or hours spent on / in the vehicle. 

That the method of counting does not favor fast vehicles.  It may turn out that the profession of an astronaut is safer than an evening walk on the beach

Well thats probably a bad example, of the 553 people who have been to space, 3 died there. And 30 have died trying to get there. Out of 336 total manned space flights in human history, thats almost averaging 1 death for every 10 flights. A moon flight is 500k miles but only 24 people have been to the moon so even by mileage its still going to be relatively high. The ISS accounts for most of our manned missions and thats only 250 miles in the sky

Edited June 16, 2021 by GoGeorgeGo

[Mark13i]

33 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Well thats probably a bad example, of the 553 people who have been to space, 3 died there. And 30 have died trying to get there. Out of 336 total manned space flights in human history, thats almost averaging 1 death for every 10 flights. A moon flight is 500k miles but only 24 people have been to the moon so even by mileage its still going to be relatively high. The ISS accounts for most of our manned missions and thats only 250 miles in the sky

Your mistake;)  The ISS and any other vehicle in orbit is "traveled" minimum 27,000 km in 1 hour.  Every astronaut in the ISS travels over 650,000 km per day (he travels in a circle, but what counts is the distance, not the straight line distance to one point).  I think we are departing from the topic

[.....]

1 hour ago, Mark13i said:

Your mistake;)  The ISS and any other vehicle in orbit is "traveled" minimum 27,000 km in 1 hour.  Every astronaut in the ISS travels over 650,000 km per day (he travels in a circle, but what counts is the distance, not the straight line distance to one point).  I think we are departing from the topic

Definitely departing from the topic. And definitely cool information. It aint like this topic isnt beating a dead horse now anyhow. I think we're overdue a derail....

And oh yeah.  BURN @GoGeorgeGo, he totally got you. I get fun facts and a BURN!!! Totally worth the read. I just wish I could hear his accent and yours, rather than just reading.

Edited June 16, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Sumako]

On 6/13/2021 at 12:12 AM, Lex Smith said:

I used to work for central government in New Zealand and I can say this - when the half wits that run our country start looking to regulate any activity they don't understand their first port of call is to see what other countries/cities are doing.  So a ban in New York could well result in a ban in New Zealand.  While I realize no one outside of NZ gives a fuck about that it does illustrate the fact that the actions of a small group can have far reaching consequences.

The flip side is I left that job about 2 years ago and they'd only just discovered Facebook and Instagram at that stage so I'm guessing I'll have a few years of free riding before they clamp down :-)

What other countries do when it comes to this sorta thing has no interest to those who make legislation here in the USA. That means if NZ decides to ban EUCs over a video (they wont) that will not impact what the US does. However, yes it is a fair (but distant) point that if the USA decides to ban something then yes, that “might” have a ripple effect in a country that outright bans things that seem scary. “It must be really bad”.

Under the above logic the company Revel must be sweating bullets over their law suits and poor public image on the NY Post headlines because God Forbid if they have aspirations to expand there market to other countries. Yet if Revel are in other countries, then maintaining those markets look a little up in the air right now. But hey, what the fuck is a company doing making a low speed electric version of a 57 Honda and calling it a public rental PEV or eScooter? It’s a motorcycle. There’s a special license for that! 

But here is why Revel does not have to worry about losing their market in the US.  American legislatures are more interested in finding ways to make money off of new power toys than trying to ban them. Regulations equal money. And BTW “surprise” all PEVs are regulated. If America can make money off it, they will. A Revel 57 ripoff being responsible for killing a beloved actor, really means an opportunity excuse for law makers to find even more ways to make money off of the damn thing. Mayor de Blasio is not cutting off the source of getting his coffee and lunch delivered on time. With all of this in mind, this is why the anti-preachers here in this forum (like me) see these fears of banning our EUCs over a video and overly exaggerated concern.

Hey @GoGeorgeGo, have I beaten this angle up enough or you do you have something to add? 

[Sumako]

5 hours ago, GothamMike said:

I don't think these "cool, hip" NYC riders realize EUCs are basically dead in many British areas. But they got 500 clicks! Look at their posts on Telegram, they sound like a bunch of 13 year old girls. Childish.

EUCs are dead In the United Kingdom, not because of some NYC behavior. See the freedom to own your choice PEV goes against the monopoly controlled by British governments and split between ride-share PEV companies; Lime, Dott, and Tier. 

[Scottie888]

21 minutes ago, Sumako said:

EUCs are dead In the United Kingdom, not because of some NYC behavior. See the freedom to own your choice PEV goes against the monopoly controlled by British governments and split between ride-share PEV companies; Lime, Dott, and Tier. 

In one little paragraph, you've hit the crux of the "OOO I'm so scared my wheel will be banned cos of some nutty wheeling in who the el cares where". Errr actually I do cos it fun watching them NYC boyz vids. Its exciting & on the edge. Instead of the usual lets go for a cruise in the park, talk about my boring life & enjoy the wind noise. But I digress.

Where I am, privately owned escooters are prohibited ie. illegal in all public areas except private property. Meanwhile, Lime & Bird rentals scoots are everywhere doing everything sans rider training nor helmets. If one cares to look, there's tons of serious escoot wipeouts in real life & on vids as well. So if its safety, why only selectively allow Lime, Bird or whatever rental. Maybe the bureaucrats have their double masks on so they aren't affected by what's happening round the globe & won't feel bad being hypocrites.

As usual, follow the money where it always leads when it comes to politicians & bureaucrats. TBH not sure I blame them either cos I know where I'd go as well.

Personally I could care less if EUCs are banned cos I don't ride on streets nor sidewalks. Worse comes, I go more dirt than I normally do. FWIW quads, dirtbikes & other such are also prohibitied but no one seems similarly outraged. For those who insists on legal street riding, there are options. Just saying. 

Bottomline, go fight your battles in your own country, state & municipality. A loud bleeping voice inside keeps telling me no one really cares what happens elsewhere. Those who say they care only seem to care cos they believe it can affect them so really, they're in it for themselves so why should anyone anywhere be any different. So let's call a spade a spade.

As usual, IMO & YMMV