Popular Post Roadpower Posted June 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2021 A video has gone up showcasing a "Allycat race" and it seriously pisses me off because the PEV is not a toy for me. Just this morning I commuted home at 3:30 AM. I wasn't dependent on a train or bus or ride-share or personal car or motorcycle. I was home in about 25 minutes over the space of six miles. I also use the PEV for work which saves me many hours of walking. What these people are doing is threatening that. The incredible recklessness and dangers foisted upon people via this event, including children is not acceptable. What makes this all the worse is that this event had commercial sponsors, half of which I have done business with. This is in a word, incredible and unacceptable. 25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ..... Posted June 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Roadpower said: A video has gone up showcasing a "Allycat race" and it seriously pisses me off because the PEV is not a toy for me. Just this morning I commuted home at 3:30 AM. I wasn't dependent on a train or bus or ride-share or personal car or motorcycle. I was home in about 25 minutes over the space of six miles. I also use the PEV for work which saves me many hours of walking. What these people are doing is threatening that. The incredible recklessness and dangers foisted upon people via this event, including children is not acceptable. What makes this all the worse is that this event had commercial sponsors, half of which I have done business with. This is in a word, incredible and unacceptable. Sponsoring illegal activity from a business, is somewhat a new thing for me to see as well. I also find it quite odd that people are blatantly breaking the law and filming it. Im not law enforcement or a politician, so I am not judging the people. I just merely find it shocking how common it is nowadays, to ADVERTISE things that are questionable in legal nature. 'Drag racing' cars down the street like us kids used to do, is now a serious felony around these parts. Video alone isnt much to convict a person on, but damn, why help pile on the evidence? I recall the ole 'hare scramble' race days. Back then it was something done in the shadows. As for a threat to your legal use of an euc. Well, who knows? People die in cars everyday and yet we still use them. To be fair about it all, the car drivers in NYC are ludicrous as well. Lucky for me, I enjoyed a wreckless youth and grew up a little over time. You know, back when everyone wasnt up everyone's ass so much about it all too. People got hurt, kids died, life moved on for the survivors. I wonder if statistically, less people are dying (per capita) from random accidents on the streets, than used to? It seems the growing population isnt hurting too badly from it. Edited June 11, 2021 by ShanesPlanet 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Skeptikos Posted June 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2021 (edited) If you think it's in bad taste that's one thing, but I find it hard to believe that it's threatening your use of your wheel. You can see what causes the authorities to crack down in the US by looking at the ATV crackdowns. It's a high threshold and EUCs don't seem to be anywhere near it. You can tell because, as far as I'm aware, no one in the US is even discussing cracking down on EUCs. As for safety, is it any more dangerous than doing the same on a bicycle? Even though it's reckless, it's still very far down on my list of traffic safety concerns (and most other people's, I imagine). If there was some EUC-related legislation people were working to pass in NY, I might be more uptight about this. But to my knowledge there is none right now. Edited June 11, 2021 by Skeptikos 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post winterwheel Posted June 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2021 (edited) The concern about legal threats to what we do is vastly overstated. It may be hard to hear for some, but nobody cares; we just don't matter enough for politicians to go out and start passing laws against EUCs. TBH, even if they did it wouldn't matter. It's illegal for bikes to ride on sidewalks and yet they all do; every last one. In my city shared scooters are banned on sidewalks also. But only a crazy person would ride one of those things out in the street, so they all ride on the sidewalk; every last one of them. There's a bit of clucking now and then, and the law here gives backing to angry pedestrians who feel like yelling out their grievances, but here we are in year three and scooters are more ubiquitous than ever. Edited June 11, 2021 by winterwheel 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadpower Posted June 11, 2021 Author Share Posted June 11, 2021 15 minutes ago, Skeptikos said: If you think it's in bad taste that's one thing, but I find it hard to believe that it's threatening your use of your wheel. Find and watch the video. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post LanghamP Posted June 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2021 It's very hard to take PEV safety seriously until a PEV runs a red light then t-bones and kills a family of five in a van. It's especially hard to do so when the dominant form of transportation in the US doesn't take safety seriously. Car ads are all about driving recklessly while still being protected in the even of a crash. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Skeptikos Posted June 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2021 18 minutes ago, Roadpower said: Find and watch the video. OK, you got me, I hadn't seen the video when I wrote this. (I thought this was maybe about Hsiang's video.) It does seem more dangerous than bicycles in places. Also it seems like you'd want a good horn if you're riding like that. This does seem like the level of recklessness that could lead to a legal response, so it does seem like the organizers should be cautious about that. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 (edited) We already have a thread for this... please continue discussion there, since almost every opinion conceivable has been presented in detail https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/18853-reckless-riding-is-going-to-get-us-banned/ (@Roadpower we'd be happy to merge your topic, if you prefer?) Edited June 11, 2021 by RagingGrandpa 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rawnei Posted June 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2021 3 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: Ya this really pisses me off too. I stopped watching after 30 seconds as the rider yelled at pedestrians in his way. Look at their shock! And they aren't even jaywalking, it was green for pedestrians red for traffic. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieterGRAMS Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 Hola, Chief Game Theorist here to answer any of your questions and complaints regarding the first ever All-PEV alleycat which included ebikes. Thanks to all whom responded with rational responses to an event that may raise a few eyebrows of the uninitiated. Very proud to say the race concluded without a single mishap. NYC riders really put on display of skill, guts, and judgement. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieterGRAMS Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 Just now, Rehab1 said: Were pedestrians and families out for a walk scared? Likely. Thankfully, our riders used audibles to alert said pedestrians of their approach which made the actions less frightening than the typical shootout, charging rat, aggressive drug addict, or road raging cabbie that we are all used to dodging on foot here in our glorious city. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrelwood Posted June 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Skeptikos said: If there was some EUC-related legislation people were working to pass in NY, I might be more uptight about this. But to my knowledge there is none right now. If there were, it would be way too late to react as a community. The EUC community doesn’t even have a single voice worthy of defending us if any laws came up to be passed as a legislation. 1 hour ago, winterwheel said: we just don't matter enough for politicians to go out and start passing laws against EUCs. We do in some countries. In mine, an active politician showing the race as an example of how EUCs are ridden “around the world“ could very well already be enough for tighter laws, and even a full ban. 1 hour ago, winterwheel said: TBH, even if they did it wouldn't matter. It's illegal for bikes to ride on sidewalks and yet they all do Again, very different story here. PEVs have already been fined. And just look at Germany, they are strictly banned already. It’s far easier to stop, fine and confiscate EUCs if they are banned as a whole, than if they are only illegal if they go too fast (current situation here). 1 hour ago, winterwheel said: but here we are in year three and scooters are more ubiquitous than ever. The scooters have large corporations behind them to drive the cause with large legal teams, and easy slogans of economic transport, taxed income etc. EUCs don’t, and the fact that we are still so small is absolutely a danger, not a blessing. We’d be way too easy to wipe out before we get too common. And the race in question is the single best tool for doing that so far. 1 hour ago, LanghamP said: It's very hard to take PEV safety seriously until a PEV runs a red light then t-bones and kills a family of five in a van. It's especially hard to do so when the dominant form of transportation in the US doesn't take safety seriously. Cars have been around for a full century. Absolutely nothing could ban them at this point, no matter if the death toll would be multiplied by ten. The governments are tightly married with the car and gasoline industries, and a huge portion of the tax income is from the car infrastructure. Pretty hard to compare, don’t you think? So far EUC related deaths have only targeted the riders themselves. A race like this is a great opportunity to be the first to include a pedestrian. 52 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said: We already have a thread for this... please continue discussion there, since almost every opinion conceivable has been presented in detail This thread started as one about a specific event, which I think was a new kind of combination of public sponsors and illegal and reckless activity. I think it is worthy of its own topic. Wouldn’t hurt to mention the race name in the topic title though. The old topic is from last year and 15 pages long. 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post CarlW Posted June 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2021 11 minutes ago, dieterGRAMS said: NYC riders really put on display of skill, guts, and judgement. I was thinking more of a display of disrespect for others, rules of the road, and lack of common courtesy. 27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieterGRAMS Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 2 minutes ago, mrelwood said: If there were, it would be way too late to react as a community. The EUC community doesn’t even have a single voice worthy of defending us if any laws came up to be passed as a legislation. This. I speak on this quite often and one of the reasons we throw events is to rally together our local community so we can eventually work towards social projects that need a lot of hands on deck. Not that I have any legitimate concerns of the matter. They will not be banned here. But they may and will likely start fining us for various things like running reds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieterGRAMS Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 4 minutes ago, CarlW said: I was thinking more of a display of disrespect for others, rules of the road, and lack of common courtesy. You'd get sideswiped your first week with that mindset. And the dudes who saw you eat it will take your shoes, wallet, phone. Hell, the wheel too. Pretty sure there was a video of VT having to steal someones wheel back because just that happened to him. Youtube it 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post winterwheel Posted June 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2021 2 minutes ago, mrelwood said: If there were, it would be way too late to react as a community. The EUC community doesn’t even have a single voice worthy of defending us if any laws came up to be passed as a legislation. We do in some countries. In mine, an active politician showing the race as an example of how EUCs are ridden “around the world“ could very well already be enough for tighter laws, and even a full ban. Again, very different story here. PEVs have already been fined. And just look at Germany, they are strictly banned already. It’s far easier to stop, fine and confiscate EUCs if they are banned as a whole, than if they are only illegal if they go too fast (current situation here). The scooters have large corporations behind them to drive the cause with large legal teams, and easy slogans of economic transport, taxed income etc. EUCs don’t, and the fact that we are still so small is absolutely a danger, not a blessing. We’d be way too easy to wipe out before we get too common. And the race in question is the single best tool for doing that so far. Cars have been around for a full century. Absolutely nothing could ban them at this point, no matter if the death toll would be multiplied by ten. The governments are tightly married with the car and gasoline industries, and a huge portion of the tax income is from the car infrastructure. Pretty hard to compare, don’t you think? So far EUC related deaths have only targeted the riders themselves. A race like this is a great opportunity to be the first to include a pedestrian. This thread started as one about a specific event, which I think was a new kind of combination of public sponsors and illegal and reckless activity. I think it is worthy of its own topic. Wouldn’t hurt to mention the race name in the topic title though. The old topic is from last year and 15 pages long. I guess I have to respond to the parts that are quoted from me....and apologizing to anyone I might offend... ...could very well already be enough... etc. for me this is just an example of worrying; not evidence of anything. Our online community is full of worriers, I think it's an age thing actually, so many of us early adopters are, quite frankly, old fuddy-duddies. :-) I've said elsewhere this aspect of our community is why I never connect people to this site voluntarily. ...Germany bans them already... I don't know anything about Germany, but quite clearly they couldn't care less about the behaviour of these people in this event. I believe, without evidence since I don't live there but it's what I believe nonetheless, that NYC riders could ride politely and discretely until the year 3000 and it would not change the minds of anyone in a country that has banned the things already. ...scooters have big companies behind them... this our case at least, this is a totally irrelevant argument; the city isn't allowing scooters because legal threats have been made; the contrary is true, the city and the province went out of their way to provide exceptions to existing law in order to allow scooters because, despite the protests of a few change-haters, the future for all of us lies in PEVs and our city is looking forward, not back. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptikos Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 31 minutes ago, dieterGRAMS said: Hola, Chief Game Theorist here Are you saying you're one of the organizers? (I don't think you're doing game theory, which is basically a subset of economics lol) Anyway, an intermediate option between the opposed positions here would be to provide racers with horns and/or high-viz vests to help give others more of a heads up that they'll be zooming through. Just a thought. Might even help the contestants go faster 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieterGRAMS Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 1 minute ago, winterwheel said: I guess I have to respond to the parts that are quoted from me....and apologizing to anyone I might offend... ...could very well already be enough... etc. for me this is just an example of worrying; not evidence of anything. Our online community is full of worriers, I think it's an age thing actually, so many of us early adopters are, quite frankly, old fuddy-duddies. :-) I've said elsewhere this aspect of our community is why I never connect people to this site voluntarily. ...Germany bans them already... I don't know anything about Germany, but quite clearly they couldn't care less about the behaviour of these people in this event. I believe, without evidence since I don't live there but it's what I believe nonetheless, that NYC riders could ride politely and discretely until the year 3000 and it would not change the minds of anyone in a country that has banned the things already. ...scooters have big companies behind them... this our case at least, this is a totally irrelevant argument; the city isn't allowing scooters because legal threats have been made; the contrary is true, the city and the province went out of their way to provide exceptions to existing law in order to allow scooters because, despite the protests of a few change-haters, the future for all of us lies in PEVs and our city is looking forward, not back. And I can pretty much sign off for the day after this one. You sir, get it. (as for the scooter thing: one hit Mayor DeBlasio a few weeks back. They still out here scootin') 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post GoGeorgeGo Posted June 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2021 2 minutes ago, winterwheel said: I guess I have to respond to the parts that are quoted from me....and apologizing to anyone I might offend... ...could very well already be enough... etc. for me this is just an example of worrying; not evidence of anything. Our online community is full of worriers, I think it's an age thing actually, so many of us early adopters are, quite frankly, old fuddy-duddies. :-) I've said elsewhere this aspect of our community is why I never connect people to this site voluntarily. ...Germany bans them already... I don't know anything about Germany, but quite clearly they couldn't care less about the behaviour of these people in this event. I believe, without evidence since I don't live there but it's what I believe nonetheless, that NYC riders could ride politely and discretely until the year 3000 and it would not change the minds of anyone in a country that has banned the things already. ...scooters have big companies behind them... this our case at least, this is a totally irrelevant argument; the city isn't allowing scooters because legal threats have been made; the contrary is true, the city and the province went out of their way to provide exceptions to existing law in order to allow scooters because, despite the protests of a few change-haters, the future for all of us lies in PEVs and our city is looking forward, not back. I will 100% agree the average age of the user on this forumn can not possibley be below 30 🤣 i was shocked to see one of the largest and most active EUC communities was using an old school forumn site. Who the hell still uses forumns? Between reddit and facebook and discord and encrypted messengers, forumns are some old school internet tech. Also plays into the price of the exciting machines. The affordable machines dont really apeal to the thrill seekers and the thrill seeking machines are far to expensive for your average 20 year old. You need some disposable income to throw 3k at what is essentially a big boy toy (lets be real they are a shitty commuting vehicle, you bought it because its fun not because its the best choice to get to work) I personally wouldnt want to endanger my community with an open circuit race, its easy enough to rent a track or get a permit. But my commumity isn't your community, and vice versa. Everyone needs to take care of their own neighborhood and things are done differently in different places. As far as legislation is concerned, its coming eventually no matter what. Prepare yourself, the free ride will mot last forever, ally cat race or no ally cat race. This is america, and if theres one thing we are good at, its making up rules that cost people money. I fully expect registration and insurance being mandatory for vehicles doing 50 mph in the street 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieterGRAMS Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 2 minutes ago, Skeptikos said: Are you saying you're one of the organizers? (I don't think you're doing game theory, which is basically a subset of economics lol) Anyway, an intermediate option between the opposed positions here would be to provide racers with horns and/or high-viz vests to help give others more of a heads up that they'll be zooming through. Just a thought. Might even help the contestants go faster Haha well "Game theory is a theoretical framework for conceiving social situations among competing players" but yes, we like to dress things up around here. We've been working on this event for over a year actually. I had a TON of concerns with safety of our riders and pedestrians. The stops were chosen so that top speed was less of a factor compared a race like our yearly Broadway Bomb (youtube those too). We wanted this to be a Navigators Rally vs a speed contest. If people weren't so outraged, they'd notice nearly all racers arrived at the same time. Why? Because some of the "slower" guys know the city waaay better than the fastest guys. I'll say it was successful in that way. In the future, we will add more "speed bumps" to *TRY* and mellow things further to satisfy the Soy Milk fed masses of this scene I guess. Also, tons of people are working on horn solutions and if we do another event like this, we've toyed with the idea of producing ultra-loud whistles for the participants. Keep the ideas coming! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post RockyTop Posted June 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2021 (edited) I hear both sides. .... ( devil’s advocate, ) I just looked Up EUC on YouTube. I had never seen those things before. They have one wheel !.... Crazy!!! Anyone that rides those things must have super skate boarder like skills.!!! AND They just weave in and out of traffic breaking all the laws. They even have a Cannon Ball Run like event they call the ally cat race. Crazy people!!! We should make them illegal like skate boards. well except that one guy, I think his name is @Duf I don’t think that the event is as dangerous as some people think. I don’t like scaring anyone. Especially woman and children. My problem is that small city planners that just learned about EUC will get the wrong impression. They don’t know any better. I agree that one crazy person in a car is not going to ban cars. Everyone knows about cars. Just looking at the internet it looks like most EUC riders are crazy with a death wish? In the past the skate board has been banned as a nuisance. I am just saying we need much more good press to out weigh the bad. Edited June 11, 2021 by RockyTop 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camenbert Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 Such race, or reckless driving, existed before with motorcycles or cars, way more dangerous for everyone. Cannonball race was not short in this matter. Who remember? Who was blaming at that time? In my memory, these Cross-Country races were looking cool! Being young nowadays does not look that fun, so I would not react as old men I slowly am. Let's remember our twenties... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post GoGeorgeGo Posted June 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2021 (edited) I would be interested in seeing an euc racing association started honestly. There seems to be enough national interest. We could then possibley generate a private insurance coverage for the participants. Something that would allow us access to more venues ( see thablackcobras rally event being cancelled due to insurance concerns) . I know mamy other racing communities have private insurance for things like dirt bikes and f1 events Between the vegas races, the california events, the east coast wheel life rallys, and the new york shenanigans, its clear there is an interest is sport racing these devices. It would give us all a place to track official leaderboards and recognize the most talented riders in the country. They could host qualifying tournaments for a national championship event. I think gaining access to closed circuit raceways is the key to getting the competitive scene normalized in the safest way possible. It would go a long way towards increasing the popularity of the hobby as well, sanctioned proffessional looking events would draw a lot of attention Edited June 11, 2021 by GoGeorgeGo 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rich Sam Posted June 11, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 11, 2021 I say go after the sponsors of this race, let them know your dollars will not be supporting functions like this... already emailed my disappointment to a few. @evX_Mick profiting off endangerment of families and kids is sickening. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieterGRAMS Posted June 11, 2021 Share Posted June 11, 2021 4 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: You’ve factored in safety concerns for riders and pedestrians? You should spend a day with me and witness children that will never walk or independently feed themselves again due to unforeseen factors. Enough said. I hope your safety efforts reach a point where innocent bystanders are fully immune from experiencing any traumatic injuries. The pedestrian that INTENTIONALLY walked into me while casually doing like 15mph in the bike lane, causing me to have my SECOND knee surgery didn't give two shits about his well being or mine. I'm not living my life worrying about others to the MAX. I do the BEST I can to consider their existence for MY safety. Theirs is secondary. No one is fully immune from ANYTHING. Get out of your fantasy world or close the door. oh, and I worked 5 years in Physical Therapy Ayy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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