Incredibly bad look for this community.

[GPW]

11 hours ago, Lex Smith said:

I used to work for central government in New Zealand and I can say this - when the half wits that run our country start looking to regulate any activity they don't understand their first port of call is to see what other countries/cities are doing.  So a ban in New York could well result in a ban in New Zealand.  While I realize no one outside of NZ gives a fuck about that it does illustrate the fact that the actions of a small group can have far reaching consequences.

The flip side is I left that job about 2 years ago and they'd only just discovered Facebook and Instagram at that stage so I'm guessing I'll have a few years of free riding before they clamp down :-)

While I would share in the hope that everyone riding EUCs everywhere behaves responsibly, I am a bit pessimistic that is a realistic expectation. EUCs and PEVs are new and as adoption grows there will be growing pains, including those pushing the limits. I think the better hope than consistent universal good behavior is that some regions do a good job adapting, setting a positive example of how to regulate in a way that is reasonable and appropriate while accepting progress. Started a separate thread along these lines, and with your experience in gov't you might have insight - What does good euc/pev regulation look like? More productive than "gonna get us banned"

Edited June 13, 2021 by GPW
typos

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, GPW said:

Can we find ways to express outrage that would not risk being interpreted as wishing harm on someone? I don't think the intended point, but this could be read that way. 

Unfortunately some only learn the hard way and when the risks are much higher not to take unnecessary chances/risks. The hole point is not to treat normal traffic as a backyard race track.

Once people start doing that, that is when the ban hammer hits hard an wide not just the offenders (and yes I mean this word in the most negative way you can interpret it, as that is how simple I view this).

[GPW]

1 minute ago, Unventor said:

Unfortunately some only learn the hard way and when the risks are much higher not to take unnecessary chances/risks. The hole point is not to treat normal traffic as a backyard race track.

Once people start doing that, that is when the ban hammer hits hard an wide not just the offenders (and yes I mean this word in the most negative way you can interpret it, as that is how simple I view this).

Ok so if we are taking this literally - then the hope would be if this race was run again you would want them to not wear helmets or other gear so that in addition to looking reckless by behavior they also set a bad example by not wearing safety gear. And then on top of that, if something did go wrong, you would want increase the chances of the rider getting harmed while doing nothing to reduce the risk to others with the hope that is teaches them a lesson? This doesn't seem productive to me. 

[Unventor]

3 minutes ago, GPW said:

Ok so if we are taking this literally - then the hope would be if this race was run again you would want them to not wear helmets or other gear so that in addition to looking reckless by behavior they also set a bad example by not wearing safety gear. And then on top of that, if something did go wrong, you would want increase the chances of the rider getting harmed while doing nothing to reduce the risk to others with the hope that is teaches them a lesson? This doesn't seem productive to me. 

I bet you they will not ride as reckless and fast. And should an incident occur then that person will know the consequence in the future and so will his friends. And youtube.

For the record I am not a hobby wanna be racerider, and I don't endorse this type of behavour, unless it is events like the one Kuji was at in France. 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Unventor

[GPW]

7 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I bet you they will not ride as reckless and fast. And should an incident occur then that person will know the consequence in the future and so will his friends. And youtube.

I think the community outrage is reasonable when expressed in the interest of avoiding hard lessons. Loses its high ground in wishing hard lessons on people. 

[Unventor]

4 minutes ago, GPW said:

I think the community outrage is reasonable when expressed in the interest of avoiding hard lessons. Loses its high ground in wishing hard lessons on people. 

Well some people act as if they are part of x-men or superman himself. Explaining how real world works do not bit on these people. 

It does not take speed to get hurt, poor judgement and choices will stack up and do it for those that keep challenge this. and gearing up will only help so much. 

[Camenbert]

Yeah well no one was hurt in this "race".
And because this was a $2000 race, it was not a normal behaving, dont you think?

People who blame bad behavior about pedestrian safety often express their fear to see EUC banned just after.
I think the hypocrisy should stop.

If there is a ban, it will have all the chance to be because of the death rate of EUC riders, NOT the opposite.

 

[Roadpower]

12 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

Yeah well no one was hurt in this "race".
And because this was a $2000 race, it was not a normal behaving, dont you think?

People who blame bad behavior about pedestrian safety often express their fear to see EUC banned just after.
I think the hypocrisy should stop.

If there is a ban, it will have all the chance to be because of the death rate of EUC riders, NOT the opposite.

 

I'm not sure I understand this post so I will just say this. The default legal position of New York State government is that the pedestrian has the right of way EVEN when they are breaking the law. They can be ticketed and removed but if you are on any kind of vehicle and encounter a pedestrian, they have right of way. And yes this has long bothered me but I understand it.

Speaking from the perspective of a motorcyclist the very first thing I learned when I started riding in NYC is that the single most consistent and dangerous threat to me was NOT other motor vehicles, it was pedestrians and bicyclists. BY FAR. In case you don't understand why I'll explain. It is because their frequency of law breaking and encroaching my drive space by mere inches was *^#%ing constant.

This however is not an excuse or a means to permit street racing. Street racing is simply not permissible, it doesn't matter the vehicle. You can't spook and upset people and be on side of good law or ethical / best practices behavior. You don't know the condition of everyone on the street, people can have vision issues, mobility issues, age issues, fatigue issues, whatever. You do not have a right to race in the street in which you are subjecting the public to dangers that you volunteered for.

[Scottie888]

Perhaps its just me but after reading 4 pages of this thread, it seems most peeps are locked into 2 groups. Those that want to preach & those that do not want to be preached to. 

I get the safety aspect & I have a deep suspicion that 110% of riders also get that. I know this is a EUC focused forum but in terms of vehicles & safety, anyone will find thousands (upon thousands) of YT vids of cars, superbikes & the ilk racing, popping wheelies, burnouts, stunting & other 2000x more dangerous activities in public spaces. Stats do not support the 'danger' of EUCs vis a vis other activities. Indeed dire injuries are more the exception & the dual confirmed EUC related deaths are directly due to getting run over by multi ton vehicles. Lets not talk about parkour, base jumping, etc etc. Lets also not talk about Bangkok (&others) where motorcyclists ride & race with flipflops.

Far's bans go, IMO I doubt it'll be due to EUC misadventures. As an eg. anyone who's been to NY will see how inane & insane some cyclists are. Esp the bike couriers. I'm very sure there's been fatal cycling injuries but there's been no talk of bans on bicycles, nevermind other modes of transport. So all this ban fears are somewhat premature & IMO unwarranted. The bureaucrats involved don't ride & don't care. I suspect private escoots are prohibited in my jurisdiction (&others...UK anyone?) due to Lime, Ride, Neuron & other rental services rather than any regards for safety (personal, public or otherwise).

If one cares to look, there are far far more dire causes for the justice warriors to plant their flags on. It does not mean Alley Cat races are great for the cause but in the big scheme, it barely makes a squeak. It only seems loud in these here sealed chambers. Mankind (or peoplekind for the PC) have taken risks, is taking risks & will take risks. Everytime we step out on the streets or when we step into the bathtub, we take risks. We get behind an automobile, we risk becoming a mass murderer. PERIOD

Might I suggest those that love to preach start their church & conscript their ready made congregation. On the flip, others will keep doing what they do regardless of all the noise &or the law. It is what it is. No right no wrong but just history & the facts. So lets not crucify any particular individual/s for all the failings of man.

FWIW the best of intentions will fall on deaf ears once its becomes naggy. Lets face it, no one (well maybe there some) likes to be nagged & even my dog have learnt that nagging does not work.

As always, IMO & YMMV. & pardon the little rant here

[Camenbert]

6 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

The default legal position of New York State government is that the pedestrian has the right of way EVEN when they are breaking the law.

This is the law in Europe too, yet my fear on EUC is to be kill, no to afraid or collide pedestrians.
Without bicycle path, you must be on the road, not on sidewalk, this seems to be also the case in NYC is I saw correctly the  "race"

Otherwise yes, the (only) ban we might see, is about race on open roads.
Nothing new since Cannonball Runs (yet last race was in August 2020)

[Roadpower]

14 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

This is the law in Europe too, yet my fear on EUC is to be kill, no to afraid or collide pedestrians.
Without bicycle path, you must be on the road, not on sidewalk, this seems to be also the case in NYC is I saw correctly the  "race"

Otherwise yes, the (only) ban we might see, is about race on open roads.
Nothing new since Cannonball Runs (yet last race was in August 2020)

Okay it seems like we may be talking about different things here.

(1) One is what you are fearing as a EUC rider, the fear of being hurt. Okay but you also must be responsible and fear for those you may inflict harm upon. This is not an undue burden, it is part of being wise, circumspect and mature about operating in the public space. The default position of everyone in the public space no matter what their vehicle is, from their own feet to truck size tires must be of mutual concern. This is not an option, this is a requirement. You do not have a civil society without it.

(2) Yes the pathways are frequently not ideal. That is simply something we must deal with. There is no utopian level world in which we have all roads that are adapted to every conceivable vehicle type. I know that when I encounter paths or roads that are very much less than ideal I have to adapt to them.

On motor vehicle roads I operate as best I can to be seen and not overly encroaching on the motor vehicle pathway. On side walks I dramatically slow down for the very specific purpose to not intimidate or spook pedestrians because I know through four decades of motor vehicle experience that the greatest enabler of accidents and frightening people is the speed differential. It is precisely the speed difference that upsets people, couple that with the failure to look them in the eye (eye contact) and they get upset. I also make a point to verbally thank people if they move to the side whether they needed to or not. The point is to spread good will.

(3) Racing in the streets in a very busy urban area: This must not be done, it doesn't matter the vehicle is. We would not accept it for any other vehicle type for obvious reasons. Just because a EUC is about as small as it gets, is not loophole or excuse for racing in busy urban streets. It's not acceptable. Can and should races be organized in appropriate venues or sectioned off areas or even perhaps at times and places where it is impossible to harm anyone else (including property), then yeah I am not going to stridently object to that.

[Roadpower]

@Scottie888 Good point about the nagging. For better or worse it is a pretty fuzzy line between complaining too little to complaining too much.

[PLEASE_DELETE]

On 6/12/2021 at 6:47 AM, GothamMike said:

These kewl kids think they are superior to elderly people crossing the street. They won't stop until someone is killed and we are all banned. So when you see someone barrelling through red lights, tell him he is an a-hole.

I just left Chicago EUC Facebook group for this exact behavior.  "Large" ride with 30+ people just ignoring all traffic signals.  I don't want to be associated with them.

[That Guy]

I live in a town where I have not seen any other unicycle rider as yet (although I've heard there may be a couple more). I am riding through the central town more than twice a day and my ride attracts a lot of attention. I am actually quite cautious about how I may be perceived by general public. I mean, I am just trying to be extra nice and extra friendly while riding. Because people are watching us and the first impression matters. These are very early EUC days and we all here, as very early adopters, are "EUC evangelists" whether we like it or not... We gotta be nice to others...

Sorry if my post is coming across as if I am trying to teach anyone! :-)

And yeah, last week I a local newspaper reached out to me and wanted to meet and talk about "the new form of personal transportation". :-)

[Roadpower]

2 minutes ago, That Guy said:

I live in a town where I have not seen any other unicycle rider as yet (although I've heard there may be a couple more). I am riding through the central town more than twice a day and my ride attracts a lot of attention. I am actually quite cautious about how I may be perceived by general public. I mean, I am just trying to be extra nice and extra friendly while riding. Because people are watching us and the first impression matters. These are very early EUC days and we all here, as very early adopters, are "EUC evangelists" whether we like it or not... We gotta be nice to others...

Sorry if my post is coming across as if I am trying to teach anyone! :-)

And yeah, last week I a local newspaper reached out to me and wanted to meet and talk about "the new form of personal transportation". :-)

I'm going to admit upfront that I have an extremely negative opinion of "news" media born by decades of keen observation of that industry. That said, I would love to know how this turns out. Hopefully anything better than a disaster. At the risk of priming that discussion, I am sure that EUC's are absolutely the future of humanity. They are just so incredibly game changing for the better, that it is unavoidable in my view. Make babies, give them a wheel. It's all over.

[PLEASE_DELETE]

9 minutes ago, That Guy said:

I live in a town where I have not seen any other unicycle rider as yet (although I've heard there may be a couple more). I am riding through the central town more than twice a day and my ride attracts a lot of attention. I am actually quite cautious about how I may be perceived by general public. I mean, I am just trying to be extra nice and extra friendly while riding. Because people are watching us and the first impression matters. These are very early EUC days and we all here, as very early adopters, are "EUC evangelists" whether we like it or not... We gotta be nice to others...

Sorry if my post is coming across as if I am trying to teach anyone! :-)

And yeah, last week I a local newspaper reached out to me and wanted to meet and talk about "the new form of personal transportation". :-)

I'm currently on a vacation in a town of 3000.  There is not a mcdonalds or starbucks within 50km of here the town is so small.  I went for one ride & people can't make heads or tails, but when I slow down and move over to the shoulder & wave cars to pass they wave back to me.  When I stop at stop signs, and wave pedestrians across I get a smile & a wave.  Best to keep a low profile & be an example so when they see one of "us" again they think of us as "nice guys" just out to enjoy the weather.

Edited June 13, 2021 by /Dev/Null

[That Guy]

7 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

... I would love to know how this turns out. Hopefully anything better than a disaster. ...

Haha, they want to see me riding up our Baldwin St (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Street) and who knows, maybe they will add an EUC badge at the top memorial? :-) (Last was added there in 1988 for roller skating climb.)

[Roadpower]

3 minutes ago, That Guy said:

Haha, they want to see me riding up our Baldwin St (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Street) and who knows, maybe they will add an EUC badge at the top memorial? :-) (Last was added there in 1988 for roller skating climb.)

Cheat and use a zig zag pattern.

[mrelwood]

15 hours ago, gon2fast said:

Each rider/area is going to have its own accepted style.

As presented a few posts earlier, running red lights while yelling for the pedestrians to yield, is very far from an accepted style, even in NYC. Or running against the flow on a multi lane one way road. There were many aspects to the race that aren’t accepted anywhere, on any vehicle. Or even without one. These aspects are global.

1 hour ago, Scottie888 said:

Perhaps its just me but after reading 4 pages of this thread, it seems most peeps are locked into 2 groups. Those that want to preach & those that do not want to be preached to.

That’s probably the only position that can fuel a critical discussion in general though. But you are absolutely right in that nagging doesn’t work on anyone. What can be done though is to let every group know that this kind of behavior is strictly frowned upon. It has already achieved Ewheels to respond publicly that this is not what they signed up for, and that they do not wish to be associated with such an event. That if anything sends a message to the racers much stronger than a thread full of naggers. People canceling their EVX YT subscriptions is another, although probably not as monumental.

Quote

I'm very sure there's been fatal cycling injuries but there's been no talk of bans on bicycles

If bicycles had entered the picture just a few years ago and they would be as rare as EUCs are now, you bet they would be under the hammer. But they are deeply rooted in our society, which makes all the difference in the world. EUCs are not.

Quote

Everytime we step out on the streets or when we step into the bathtub, we take risks.

The difference is that no-one of those that stepped out on the street knew they’d be taking the risk of stepping on a race track. The fact that risk exists in everything goes without saying, it’s the level of said risk that’s under discussion, whether it was unnecessary or unfair.

Quote

On the flip, others will keep doing what they do regardless of all the noise &or the law. It is what it is.

They probably will. But the viewers who wonder if a race like that is really ok need to know what the community thinks. Whether it’s all cool and dandy and something to look up for, or whether it’s indeed an outlier amongst a community full of well behaving riders. That has large influences on the attitudes of future riders, and non-riders as well.

Quote

(3) Racing in the streets in a very busy urban area: This must not be done, it doesn't matter the vehicle is. We would not accept it for any other vehicle type for obvious reasons.

Exactly, well put! Imagine we were a community of motorcycle riders that generally behave well in traffic. A motorcycle Alleycat race wouldn’t even fuel a two sided debate, as it would be so obviously out of line.

[Scottie888]

54 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

Good point about the nagging. For better or worse it is a pretty fuzzy line between complaining too little to complaining too much.

All good bruh. I find it sorta amusing that we forget one of highest grossing media franchises in the world is Fast & Furious. Is there anything in those movies involving wheels that is legal, not on the edge & death defying? Can I say its promoting exactly what we're abhorrently protesting here but yet, there's a FF9 (& I assume 10 & 11 &...).

So what does that say about us as a species. Regardless there'll always be outliers living on the edge endangering themselves, the public & machinery. So why are the righteous not out in force cancelling said media & its ilk but instead lining up to enrich the participants. I would argue that said movies & its genre are responsible for far far more injuries & death than any AlleyCat race ever will. And then...there's alcohol but I digress.

For me these are very interesting questions to ask ourselves rather than others 🤔

[Roadpower]

@Scottie888 I actually never got very interested the Fast & Furious franchise. However when I was very much younger I was really excited by the movie The Seven Ups (1973).

[Scottie888]

3 minutes ago, Roadpower said:

I actually never got very interested the Fast & Furious franchise. However when I was very much younger I was really excited by the movie The Seven Ups (1973).

Wooah I missed that movie. Maybe '73 was not an enlightening year for me but it has 6.8 on IMDB. I think I'll fire up Kodi & search for it 👍

On another note, why is it that all of the biggest best highest grossing movies mainly involve death, endangering the public & blowing/crashing machinery. Interesting bit of trivia no🤔

[mrelwood]

22 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

Fast & Furious. Is there anything in those movies involving wheels that is legal, not on the edge & death defying?

Sure there is. Making such movies is perfectly legal as long as the safety of all participants can be ensured. Deaths are also quite rare during film making, but happen all the time in traffic. You know, IRL.

Edit: PS. I hear first person shooters are also a big thing. Especially in gaming.

Edited June 13, 2021 by mrelwood

[gon2fast]

15 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

As presented a few posts earlier, running red lights while yelling for the pedestrians to yield, is very far from an accepted style, even in NYC. Or running against the flow on a multi lane one way road. There were many aspects to the race that aren’t accepted anywhere, on any vehicle. Or even without one. These aspects are global.

Let me word that differently, people are going to do what they want whether we like it or not.

 

[Scottie888]

2 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Sure there is. Making such movies is perfectly legal as long as the safety of all participants can be ensured. Deaths are also quite rare during film making, but happen all the time in traffic. You know, IRL.

Ahh yes, making it is legal but what was it promoting?

When I was a kid I remember there was the Marlboro Man. It was from commercials made to promote Marlboro ciggies. Making the commercial then was legal. Selling & consuming said product is still very legal.

But why was all cigarette commercials banned in '70. Every was & is still legal. I wonder🤔