Incredibly bad look for this community.

[dieterGRAMS]

Just now, Rich Sam said:

I say go after the sponsors of this race, let them know your dollars will not be supporting functions like this... already emailed my disappointment to a few.  @evX_Mick profiting off endangerment of families and kids is sickening.

We made zero dollars lol. Actually a couple hundred came directly out of MY pocket. I also had to ask 8 of my personal friends to work the stops.

We did this for the sport, for the culture and our city, nothing more. Good Day

[Rich Sam]

1 minute ago, dieterGRAMS said:

We made zero dollars lol. Actually a couple hundred came directly out of MY pocket. I also had to ask 8 of my personal friends to work the stops.

We did this for the sport, for the culture and our city, nothing more. Good Day

YouTube channels profit in views\subscribers.  This is not sport, this is crap.

[dieterGRAMS]

2 minutes ago, Rich Sam said:

YouTube channels profit in views\subscribers.  This is not sport, this is crap.

PEANUTS if anything. Get real, you're clueless. 

Also: 

This was the flier for Monster Track 2010. Our biggest annual alleycat. You see all those sponsors on the side there?

I'm sure a few of you have Chrome Bags. Feel free to email them your complaints for sponsoring "crap" year after year

oh, be sure to burn your bags on Youtube so your statement is heard, clown

[Rich Sam]

1 minute ago, dieterGRAMS said:

PEANUTS if anything. Get real, you're clueless. 

Also: 

This was the flier for Monster Track 2010. Our biggest annual alleycat. You see all those sponsors on the side there?

I'm sure a few of you have Chrome Bags. Feel free to email them your complaints for sponsoring "crap" year after year

oh, be sure to burn your bags on Youtube so your statement is heard, clown

eWheels has already expressed their surprise to me and shared my concern, I'm sure more are to follow.  next ride "Peanuts" is what the masochists will win.

[Skeptikos]

20 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

You’ve factored in safety concerns for riders and pedestrians?  You should spend a day with me and witness children that will never walk or independently feed themselves again due to unforeseen factors.

Enough said. I hope your safety efforts reach a point where innocent bystanders are fully immune from experiencing any traumatic injuries.

Probably the most frustrating thing about decentralized groups is that different subgroups can have conflicting priorities and agendas and it's difficult bordering on impossible to police behavior that you may disapprove of, even when you disapprove for very good reasons.

I don't think you're going to convince anyone to cancel the races given that some people in NYC really enjoy them. I think the best you could do is help @dieterGRAMSand other organizers adopt safety or PR measures that would mitigate the downsides you're worried about. He seems kind of open to that, so I would seriously consider it instead of attacking people

[dieterGRAMS]

6 minutes ago, Rich Sam said:

eWheels has already expressed their surprise to me and shared my concern, I'm sure more are to follow.  next ride "Peanuts" is what the masochists will win.

lol. The great thing about NYC... no one cared about the prizes. 

outside of the "Winner Takes All" entry fee cash (yep, gave it all away), and clothing that EVwhere.NYC handed out... people just wanted to do it for the glory. We wont mind peanuts  Besides, we'll prolly get more bike and board sponsors next year. It was All-PEV remember? Only the Unitard guys have their panties in a bunch. 

5 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

Probably the most frustrating thing about decentralized groups is that different subgroups can have conflicting priorities and agendas and it's difficult bordering on impossible to police behavior that you may disapprove of, even when you disapprove for very good reasons.

I don't think you're going to convince anyone to cancel the races given that some people in NYC really enjoy them. I think the best you could do is help @dieterGRAMSand other organizers adopt safety or PR measures that would mitigate the downsides you're worried about. He seems kind of open to that, so I would seriously consider it instead of attacking people

This is exactly what we are TRYING to do. Thank you. 

It's myself, and its Mickey. Two dudes, doing the best we can. It ain't perfect but we're doing the leg work. All hands welcome on deck. 

[Rich Sam]

1 minute ago, dieterGRAMS said:

lol. The great thing about NYC... no one cared about the prizes. 

outside of the "Winner Takes All" entry fee cash (yep, gave it all away), and clothing that EVwhere.NYC handed out... people just wanted to do it for the glory. We wont mind peanuts  Besides, we'll prolly get more bike and board sponsors next year. It was All-PEV remember? Only the Unitard guys have their panties in a bunch. 

This is exactly what we are TRYING to do. Thank you. 

It's myself, and its Mickey. Two dudes, doing the best we can. It ain't perfect but we're doing the leg work. All hands welcome on deck. 

Then I will contact your new sponsors as I see them.  I will donate my time to make it harder for you to normalize this troubling behavior.

[evX_Mick]

41 minutes ago, Rich Sam said:

I say go after the sponsors of this race, let them know your dollars will not be supporting functions like this... already emailed my disappointment to a few.  @evX_Mick profiting off endangerment of families and kids is sickening.

I’m sorry you feel that way. It does in fact take a lot of skill to ride so flawlessly on a daily basis in the greatest city in the world. Hey I’m actually here in the Modern hotel on Broadway, can you bring me a beer from the elephant lunge when you come by? Oh and that burger they make. It’s legit. Thanks bro. 

[Rich Sam]

Just now, evX_Mick said:

I’m sorry you feel that way. It does in fact take a lot of skill to ride so flawlessly on a daily basis in the greatest city in the world. Hey I’m actually here in the Modern hotel on Broadway, can you bring me a beer from the elephant lunge when you come by? Oh and that burger they make. It’s legit. Thanks bro. 

It does take skill to ride in NY, I will  not take that away from any NY Rider.  It takes total disregard for human life to barrel into crossing pedestrians going 40MPH when the rider could have simply stopped.  The act is showcased at the beginning of the vid, like it is a highlight reel or something.

[evX_Mick]

1 minute ago, Rich Sam said:

It does take skill to ride in NY, I will  not take that away from any NY Rider.  It takes total disregard for human life to barrel into crossing pedestrians going 40MPH when the rider could have simply stopped.  The act is showcased at the beginning of the vid, like it is a highlight reel or something.

He was actually going 65mph. He’s incredibly reckless. I’ve a fault started a petition for veteran to limit their wheels to 30mph, to account for jerks like him. 

[Rich Sam]

2 minutes ago, evX_Mick said:

He was actually going 65mph. He’s incredibly reckless. I’ve a fault started a petition for veteran to limit their wheels to 30mph, to account for jerks like him. 

Speed of the wheels is not the problem, it is the person steering.  To decide that hey winning this race is more important than seriously hurting people, all the while filming this close call and deciding to further your own youtube channel while promoting this behavior.  That is the problem.

[dieterGRAMS]

21 minutes ago, Rich Sam said:

Then I will contact your new sponsors as I see them.  I will donate my time to make it harder for you to normalize this troubling behavior.

I hope you do a really great job, because the next ones in Seattle and we're bringing out all the big boy 100v ONYX RCRs

$50 entry winner takes all!

[Rich Sam]

18 minutes ago, dieterGRAMS said:

I hope you do a really great job, because the next ones in Seattle and we're bringing out all the big boy 100v ONYX RCRs

$50 entry winner takes all!

I ride with a few ONYX riders in Seattle, I doubt many in here will make the same poor choices as that vid.

[Roadpower]

These threads are always difficult to hash out but hash out we must. As I've said in the past I'm not against people doing what they want to do with their property but the problem is and always has been how the property is used. If people want to race or do stunts I say more power to them and I'm not kidding, I'm happy for you to indulge yourself that way. But not in the public space where you have no ability or right to control that space or to make it recklessly dangerous for other people to be in.

I've seen several times in this thread the argument made that because other people do X bad action that therefore you also have a right to do bad actions. Do I really need to break down what kind of argument that is...?

I'm well aware that a cannon ball type of race is the holy grail of race types for what should be obvious reasons. You have to piece everything together on the fly to succeed, I get that. I get that it is thrilling and compelling.

But I'm sorry, there are in fact reasonable limits for what you can expose other people to. You folks went very far past that line and no amount of getting defensive about it is going to change that. You can make up excuses as long as you like but when you have successfully alarmed people in power, it will be you who once again without the sanctioning of the public at large, who turned us into one of those countries where the people don't have the basic freedom to use 21st century transportation solutions.

The idea that nothing is ever going change because you haven't seen it yet is historically invalid. Opinions and laws do change when you spook or upset the right person. You have zero way of knowing in the course of that race if you were seen by city council people or their family members. For every one person in this race there may be dozens of city EUC riders who you represented that day whether they wanted it or not.

I don't what else to tell you but this was not good. I'm more than willing to help brain storm ideas for expanding the community but this would not be one of them.

Peace

[shellac]

When @Hsiang posted his video I didn’t think the race was too bad, seems they were responsible. I guess hsiang  was simply riding less aggressively than others. 

Anyways I’ll remind everyone that this happened, a pedestrian was killed in Jakarta in a low speed accident. 

Also a reminder that youtube has a report button. 

 

[Camenbert]

17 minutes ago, shellac said:

a pedestrian was killed in Jakarta in a low speed accident. 

You mean at walking speed ?

[Skeptikos]

43 minutes ago, dieterGRAMS said:

This is exactly what we are TRYING to do. Thank you. 

It's myself, and its Mickey. Two dudes, doing the best we can. It ain't perfect but we're doing the leg work. All hands welcome on deck. 

Alright, in that spirit here are more suggestions. I have no expertise so take these all with a grain of salt.

High-viz vests: I'm not sure what clothing best screams "I'm moving fast get out of the way!", maybe even lights like @Unipsycho uses here might be better. You could attach numbers to them to make it easier for your volunteers to track who showed up where. Anyway, some kind of conspicuous racing vest or clothing.

You could require foam/neoprene padding on the wheels.

You could put up signs along the routes saying "warning: race in progress", maybe on traffic cones or something along those lines.

In terms of PR and freaking people out, I think it'd be helpful to have some kind of safety note about how you planned the race at the beginning of videos about it. I know you don't control all the videos, but you could ask video recording participants to include it. Sort of like a "kids don't try this at home" disclaimer. Won't stop all criticism by any means, but I think it'd help.

That's all I've got for now.

[winterwheel]

3 hours ago, dieterGRAMS said:

And I can pretty much sign off for the day after this one. You sir, get it.

(as for the scooter thing: one hit Mayor DeBlasio a few weeks back. They still out here scootin')

I do have a beef with the NYC crew though, I'd love it you guys would let up on the EX, it's an awesome wheel; suspension on a big beefy wheel just can't be beat. 

[.....]

I'm sure racing in NYC isnt a problem. Getting a permit for racing for a few square city blocks during the day and developing a sanctioning body shouldn't prove difficult at all. It sounds like the Mayor obviously endorses pev's, as he got hit by one and didnt mind. I'd bet big money that EVERY racer was registered and had insurance to cover any injuries to the 'spectators' who happened to be on the same street. I find it a poor way to introduce the sport and perpetuate public acceptance. If race tracks weren't needed for RACES, it seems a lot of us have wasted a TON of money paying for track days. You know, this kind of thing (street racing) USED to be 'underground'. There was a VERY valid reason it was 'underground', and those reasons havent changed.

Make no mistake, this isnt being done for the greater good of the pev world. It is being done to stroke ego's, have fun and gain some spotlight. Me, I aint no saint and I dont care to be any kind of ambassador or 'help' the euc scene. I play merely for my own pleasure and won't try and BS people by saying its for some positive agenda. I also try and edit out any blatantly illegal or dangerous (to others) things I may do on a ride. Why would I edit it? Because I know its wrong and no ammount of rationale on my part is fooling anyone to think otherwise.

Race the races, speed past the limits, run red lights, I dont care. If you dont run into me, it doesnt directly affect me. What kind of gets to me is the BS justifications. You can't act like a hooligan and endanger people while breaking laws, AND claim to be perpetuating a cause for the greater good. THIS is why I think criminal behavior needs be kept in the shadows. Wanting popularity and funding or endorsements for criminal acts, just seems silly to me. Of course, clickbait titles and overly dramatic videos to 'sell' views, pisses me off too. Heck, everything pisses me off, so its all kind of moot .

Edited June 12, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Tawpie]

3 hours ago, dieterGRAMS said:

next ones in Seattle

A couple of tips about Seattle for the organizers...

• as long as it's not fossil fueled it automatically gets a pass... just don't anyone run over a homeless person's tent, that kind of behavior gets our panties twisted like you wouldn't believe
• pedestrians in crosswalks are completely and totally oblivious, after all, they have the right of way so why bother looking? but we won't be in the street if our little red stop person is showing so there's that too
• we're pretty sure the world will end in a zombie apocalypse, so being zombie themed is likely to cause generalized panic. if you do go zombie style, please to let me know in advance so I can stock up on toilet paper. stuff gets scarce around here.
• our drivers aren't good drivers by any stretch of the imagination, and we're about as unpredictable as drivers can get... I think it's more dangerous mingling with cars here than NYC because unlike y'all we don't share a common framework for how to disregard traffic conventions. Ballard is just north of the city core, I wouldn't route through there. There's a little bit of Ballard in all of us... even the transplants catch a little.

 

 

[OldFartRides]

Looks like the line is drawn ‘tween the old farts and the young-n-dumb.

All fun n games ‘til someone ends up dead or in hospital.

 Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was. Same as it EVER was.

 

[Tawpie]

In all seriousness, evX's cut is intended to amp up the chaos... the risk taking, the excitement of the event, the danger. Another cut wouldn't raise many eyebrows at all. My personal style is to ride with respect and consideration and I tend to be very conservative in the way I operate my vehicle. I 100% get that I have little in common with the NYC riders—I admire their skill and nerve, it allows them to have experiences that are simply not available to me. And I'm on the fence about "setting a good example" because I find it increasingly difficult to assume that what works in my life will have the same effect on the lives of others.

I do expect that something terrible will eventually happen during one of these events and my experience tells me that folks that include Juris Doctor after their names will take notice. If the little kid in the crosswalk was run over, the organizers and sponsors would rightly be held responsible. That kind of a lawsuit could easily take out our distributors and end this EUC thing once and for all. I do hope nobody gets hurt and if somebody does, I hope it's not a bystander or motorist.

Perhaps there's another way to have this kind of fun***? I know it's not the same if it's "safer", but I do think looking out for the well being of non-participants is something that should be first on the agenda.

Flip the script and put yourself and your child in the crosswalk.

 

*** a 'wildcat' race, same kind of setup but off-road!

Edited June 12, 2021 by Tawpie

[.....]

4 hours ago, Tawpie said:

In all seriousness, evX's cut is intended to amp up the chaos... the risk taking, the excitement of the event, the danger. Another cut wouldn't raise many eyebrows at all. My personal style is to ride with respect and consideration and I tend to be very conservative in the way I operate my vehicle. I 100% get that I have little in common with the NYC riders—I admire their skill and nerve, it allows them to have experiences that are simply not available to me. And I'm on the fence about "setting a good example" because I find it increasingly difficult to assume that what works in my life will have the same effect on the lives of others.

I do expect that something terrible will eventually happen during one of these events and my experience tells me that folks that include Juris Doctor after their names will take notice. If the little kid in the crosswalk was run over, the organizers and sponsors would rightly be held responsible. That kind of a lawsuit could easily take out our distributors and end this EUC thing once and for all. I do hope nobody gets hurt and if somebody does, I hope it's not a bystander or motorist.

Perhaps there's another way to have this kind of fun***? I know it's not the same if it's "safer", but I do think looking out for the well being of non-participants is something that should be first on the agenda.

Flip the script and put yourself and your child in the crosswalk.

 

*** a 'wildcat' race, same kind of setup but off-road!

I recall seeing an event overseas somewhere. I think it was a Kuji video. It was an AMAZING euc event with races and scooters and hella turnout. It was advertised and it seemed like they had a defined course. I'm speaking out of faded memory and ignorance, but if I'm even near correct... THAT is the kind of event where almost ALL of us can appreciate the skill and danger for what it is. You know, without the unintended consequences of unpredicatable motorists, slow pedestrians and traffic law. 

Of course, thats not a regular event and its not nearly as easy to go to something like that, as it is to just ride like you want in your own neighborhood. I used to race my little Mr2 in sanctioned scca events. It was nothing more than a parking lot and a bunch of cones. BUT, we had waivers, permits and safety meeting. Signatures were collected and rules were enforced. We had emergency crew on hand and a lot of off duty cops joined in the forray.  It was also fun but still not as fun as a good ole "blah blah blah, it never happened, race"   We also had dirt oval track local for any type of car you cared to ride. Then there was the dirt quarter midget track we also rode carts on. THEN there was the motocross track. THEN there was the trails areas. If i recall, I had many places to do dangerous things, but remain legal. The thing about the sanctioned events... it was small, it was cheap and you could brag and take pictures w/o worry of judgement or confinement. Even sponsors could advertise w/o worry! I bet any number of those types of places would work with a crew of euc riders to set up a NEW type of event. Its just about the $$ of course!  We had other places and things we did, but I'm too old school to cite them specifically. I havent forgotten what it was like to be a damn pesky kid. It does seem nowadays, the age limit isnt a limit and the game has changed a hair. Even so, I'd imagine we all behave in a way that someone else would deem inappropriate. Its just most of us keep the closet door closed so you can't video tape the skeletons...

Edited June 12, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[fbhb]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I recall seeing an event overseas somewhere. I think it was a Kuji video. It was an AMAZING euc event with races and scooters and hella turnout. It was advertised and it seemed like they had a defined course. I'm speaking out of faded memory and ignorance, but if I'm even near correct... THAT is the kind of event where almost ALL of us can appreciate the skill and danger for what it is.

You are bang on @ShanesPlanet, it was a Kuji video and an epic event to watch, let alone take part in!  I remembered watching it myself as soon as I read your post so grabbed the link for it to post here: 

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by fbhb

[Scottie888]

I we can all provide our arguments for or against all we want but end of the day, that is NYC & is only subject to NYC rules (real perceived or otherwise). The issue here is a lot if not most of the posters comes from different countries, states, provinces, counties with different jurisdictions. 

I know my jurisdiction will instantly slap a dangerous something or other ticket on me & the Man will likely throw me in the slammer for the weekend just for heck. But that don't mean the same will happen elsewhere. In the US, gun ownership is a right under the Constitution while the death penalty awaits elsewhere. Meanwhile, cannabis consumption is legal in my jurisdiction & ya, we're even allow to grow some while in 'Merica, they throw the book at ya.

You get my point. In fact, I don't doubt EUC street racing is one of the lesser & tamer evils in da Big Apple. Personally I wouldn't do it (mainly cos I don't got da ballz 🥴) but I also I also know I don't the right to judge others either.

I gotta say it does seem thrilling & likely, the 360 cam views make it tighter than it really is. Must be the age but I think I'll stick to the bike paths