Incredibly bad look for this community.

[Roadpower]

23 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

So why to worry then?
Legislators most likely won't see any difference between half-ebike and ebike, these are perfectly accepted and sold by millions.

One of the issues with this conversation (and I'm not blaming anyone for this) is the terminology being used. Now-a-days "scooter" can mean anything between a child's kick scooter to a sitdown electric scooter which is basically a small motorcycle. I am beginning to not like the term "half-ebike" because I suspect it is going to open up vulnerabilities. It is not a bad term when a person is attempting to use it as a sales device but it can be wielded against you if a party that has an issue with EUC's wants to cast them in a more dangerous or threatening light.

An electric scooter (motorcycle) is in my view a different class of PEV than an EUC. They definitely weigh a lot more, generally go much faster, or are at least operated much faster on average and they offer a lot more protection to the rider than does a EUC. So really I don't want a EUC associated with a sitdown electric scooter and I don't believe that it is an appropriate association.

And there is the stand up electric scooters some of which are ridiculously fast as is I am seeing those people operate routinely above 40MPH (64KPH) on paths meant for pedestrians and PEV's. I don't want to be associated with them either but we will be. Fortunately most of the stand up e-scooters are much less powerful and not ridden to ridiculous extremes.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Roadpower

[Mark13i]

1 hour ago, Tasku said:

Thank you for clearing this up

Sorry again. Those who thought I was doing fake news

I wanted to show two things:
1. People only see emotionally what is capitalized in the headline - the entire text is not important.
2. It doesn't take much to make enemy # 1 out of something as "unnecessary" to society as the EUC. It is enough to write in the headline about harm to a valuable person and the perpetrator using something as unimportant as EUC.

This is how the psyche and the herd social interest work - everywhere in the world.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Mark13i

[Treatz]

10 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

Drivers (not cars) who have registered, licensed, and insured cars while also holding a valid driver's license are responsible for the majority of traffic deaths in the US. 

Bicycles, e bikes and e scooters, EUC's, and other PEV are not responsible for most traffic deaths.

Yet one group is allowed while the other is banned. One advertises breaking laws while have safety features that protect its users while the other does not and cannot.

NYC doesn't have a "rampaging PEV problem". It has an automobile problem. To me, it's ludicrous that you might have two PEV related deaths per year while ignoring the hundreds of automobile related deaths.

That's incorrect, we register vehicles and get licenses for humans to test their competency and drive them. If a car doesn't have a registration, they can get impounded. If the human doesn't have a license, they can get cited, or even arrested. Don't argue just to argue.

The rest of your points about comparing cars to pev's make no sense for this discussion. There's nothing in the car industry that resembles the PEV industry except they both make transportation devices. When PEV's have been around for 100 years, have an entire lobbying industry dedicated to it, have an entire highways system build around it, and everyone who makes laws drives one, then we can compare. 

I'm not getting distracted by these false comparisons and sham arguments.

It's one issue ONLY:  Consideration for others vs. self entitlement.

 

 

 

[GoGeorgeGo]

Honestly i dont think this incident with the actress will do anything for euc. We will skirt away under the same technicalities we have to this point. Every law is written to specify 2 or more wheels. 

No one should be freaking out about legislation though, thats pretty selfish. Like i said earlier in this thread, we all need to look after our own communities. I wouldn't host an open circuit race in my community because i have neices and nephews and grandparents and a mother who live here. I couldn't put them in that situation, and so i won't put your relatives in that situation. It has nothing to do with laws, its all about humanity.

But again, im not from your neighborhood, and your not from mine. You need to look after your own and do what you think is right by your community. Im not worried about what happens to the laws in New York, and im not worried about what happens to the participants. I only worry about the pedestrians caught in the action. But even then, its not my community, so its not really my problem. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by GoGeorgeGo

[shellac]

Manhattan has a lot of cameras everywhere. Hopefully they catch the cowardly piece of shit who hit her and ran away. 

[Mark13i]

16 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Honestly i dont think this incident with the actress will do anything for euc.

You're right, this accident will not affect the EUC.

If the perpetrator of the accident was a rider on the EUC, the media would emphasize even more that something exotic kills on the streets - "... a small and fast vehicle, seemingly beyond control, on which madmen drive."

Is this media enough to affect your neighborhood?

[.....]

21 minutes ago, Mark13i said:

You're right, this accident will not affect the EUC.

If the perpetrator of the accident was a rider on the EUC, the media would emphasize even more that something exotic kills on the streets - "... a small and fast vehicle, seemingly beyond control, on which madmen drive."

Is this media enough to affect your neighborhood?

My neighborhood and local/county laws are sometimes irrational and you can TELL, lobbied for by a small interest group. There are so few riders here, I have little worry. However, it doesnt take very much effort to ammend and write laws in some counties. I really am not concerned about euc's around here yet, but if I run into some old lady (they are ALL related), it wouldnt be jack sh*t for them to change the law based on me alone. I hope people realize that sometimes a small town judge visits a big city and forms an opinion, based on where he is from, not where he is at. Even if a visitor doesnt understand the 'acceptable' dynamic of a larger town, they still understand that "law is law". Hopefully a bad taste doesnt form and come back home with them.

Yes, I think the media is enough to effect a county and the neighborhoods within. Laws are changed with little information and research sometimes. Adding euc's to laws in place on a whim is plausible. If the old rednecks in charge don't have a clue what something is, OF COURSE they check the media and youtbe. Information is information, and fact checking isnt required. The internet isnt local and when no information locally can be found, reliance on OTHER locational information holds more weight. If an officer or judge just HAPPENED to come across the wrong video or news story archive at home, I could see them easily lumping me in with what little they've seen. Prejudice is common and a human trait. A persons FIRST encounter of something new, MAY prejudice them for/against it until they are proven otherwise. Because of this, I REALLY hope that nothing I present publicly, is damaging enough to mean negative changes for anyone. Even the smallest countries are watching the same things the big ones are...

Edited June 15, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[GoGeorgeGo]

6 minutes ago, Mark13i said:

You're right, this accident will not affect the EUC.

If the perpetrator of the accident was a rider on the EUC, the media would emphasize even more that something exotic kills on the streets - "... a small and fast vehicle, seemingly beyond control, on which madmen drive."

Is this media enough to affect your neighborhood?

It doesnt matter what anyone does, legislation is coming for these machines eventually. They are not going to just let us ride unregistered 50 mph vehicles in the roadways forever. American politicians are great at 2 things. Passing laws that generate revenue, and passing laws that keep them in office. 

Even if no major event ever happens we WILL get regulated. (major forest fire, apartment complex burns down with people i side, euc burst in flames in the middle of a walmart, honestly a road accident is low on the list of high profile incidents) 

I would be shocked if we are not required to have registration and to pay for a PEV class liscensing course at some point in the future. 

The only thing an ally cat race does as far as law making is concerned is potentially set a bad precedent in NYC if they are forced to pass a law by special interest groups outraged in order to keep their political office. Its not going to be a federal mandate. Every town and city in america will have their own ordinances and will all need to deal with the pev revolution in their own way

[Mark13i]

@ ShanesPlanet @ GoGeorgGo -  I worry less about the law and more about the opinion of the community. What the people I pass think.
I like to see people's good attitude towards what I'm going on.
It would be a pity for the local community to have a bad opinion based on what the media say when they comment on an event that happened on the other side of the earth.
That's all.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Mark13i

[.....]

12 minutes ago, Mark13i said:

@ShanesPlanet - I worry less about the law and more about the opinion of the community. What the people I pass think.
I like to see people's good attitude towards what I'm going on.
It would be a pity for the local community to have a bad opinion based on what the media say when they comment on an event that happened on the other side of the earth.
That's all.

I can agree with that. Local opinion can definitely trump local law. Law and enforcement arent the same. Enforcement is the REAL focus imho. I'm already known locally as that guy on the wheel thingy. I tend to chat people up/fit in pretty well. I ride up to the boys in the squad cars, hang out around the firehouse, chat with the old farmers. I think Im considered somewhat askew and amusing. Redneck hat, cigarettes and a t-shirt, complete the enitre 'not to worry' ensemble sometimes.  I DO try to smile and be polite and definitely give way to people on foot. The locals around here do view those Yankees as an oddity. Luckily (I hope), most of my locals already equate the euc with just another guy having fun. I agree with George tho.. we ARE on a timeline. My entire issue in this thread, isnt about WHAT the guys in NYC are doing. I'm not overly concerned that an euc is statistically going to cause squat for deaths in compare to so many other NYC events. My issue is simply that something illegal is being promoted and published. Hearing 'everyone else is doing... blah blah blah', reminds me that age is merely a number.

Edited June 15, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[GPW]

3 hours ago, LanghamP said:

 personally think EUC will be mostly safe from laws, because the people who ride them are somewhat affluent and so don't make an easy target.

 

 

I think this assertion about euc user affluence may apply in other regions, or at least this forum. I think it does not hold as a characterization of NYC EUC riders.

It is probably also worth pointing out that the legalization of ebikes and escooters in NYC (and for now the implicit acceptance of EUCs within this umbrella) is actually due to advocates for the people using PEVs to make a living, largely in delivering food. When the pandemic drove more dependence on deliveries, this ultimately proved a catalyst in legalizing ebikes and escooters as delivery people enabled people to hide in their homes.

Not pointing this out to call anyone out. But I think the awareness of this reality might be helpful to those trying to understand some NYC dynamics.

[OldFartRides]

I’ll  chime in one more time on this.

Its not really complicated.

Ride like an outlaw, get an outlaw reputation.

Ride like a law abiding citizen, get a law abiding citizen reputation.

A few people doing stupid shit affects us all…

R.I.P. Lisa Banes

 

[yoos]

This has been an interesting discussion. I hope it won't drive anyone from the forums despite arguments getting personal.

To address the original topic: 1) The driving looks utterly reckless and selfish, literally painful (though entertaining) to watch. Even if these racers are superstars and deem to be in control, the video conveys danger and risk. If it looks dangerous even to fellow EUC riders, it is guaranteed to terrify the general public. 2) I agree that such races and videos may play a negative role in future regulation (and not only in NYC). And indeed this is a major reason people are angry. Comparison to bicycle races etc is invalid here, because (as already mentioned) bicycles are already universally accepted and regulated, they are part of human culture. EUC (and even e-scooters) are brand new, and will be regulated soon. They are a very vulnerable new thing: they are already an annoyance to many, still used by few, and they have no lobbying force. Any bad press caused by an unlucky accident can potentially lead to a ban. I live in the city center and they are the best commute option for me (fastest, even at 20kph, most fun and free). If they get banned I will suffer very much.

Anyway, thankfully noone was hurt in the race and the video is down so its impact should now be limited. I would also like to note that evx's videos are some of the best EUC content in terms of product quality. His contribution to the EUC movement is huge and I really hope the NYC scene shenanigans will not end up hurting people or the EUC community. At the same time as the number of EUCs grows accidents and deaths are inevitable. I just hope agreeable regulation will be put in place before EUCs get really bad press.

Regulation of PEVs is happening in many places now and it very much depends on almost random things. What happens first -- the mayors daughter gets into PEVs and the city invests into a scooter sharing-service or the mayor hits a rogue scooter on the street? The president opens a scooter megafactory and gives it a try or a famous actor is run over by a PEV? The head of the committee googles "EUC" and sees a viral alleycat race or he gets his food delivered unexpectedly fast by a nice person on a beautiful wheel? At this stage accidents can really turn the direction regulation is going. Once regulation is passed it will hardly be changed. If the EUC movement gets stifled in a country it might never get big enough to induce a change of already established laws (or at least it will lose a decade. iirc Germany has this type of problem now due to some old segway-targeted laws).

Example: Russia has finally decided to regulate scooters due to some scooter-related deadly accidents. Surely the regulation will affect all known PEVs. It is unclear whether EUCs will get any special treatment. Anyone who only saw videos of Turbo racing his Sherman in NYC would immediately decide that those things are half-motorcycles and should stay on the road. On the other hand I saw an urban planner say that EUCs belong on the sidewalk. His view is also understandable since this guy drove an EUC some 6 years ago and apparently did not notice the progress since. Ecodrift on the other hand tries to convince the city council (or whomever -- not sure) that EUCs should have the same rights as bicycles (which are allowed on bicycle lanes, streets and sidewalks, depending on circumstances). To me this would be the best outcome. However, in the end legislators will probably focus their short attention on e-scooters and EUCs might suffer under some universal PEV rules due to being an outlandish PEV minority. Currently two-wheeled entities with over 250W or top speed over 25kph are classified by our dated law as mopeds. If these criteria were applied to EUCs this would push all of them onto the road.

 

[LanghamP]

3 hours ago, Treatz said:

That's incorrect, we register vehicles and get licenses for humans to test their competency and drive them. If a car doesn't have a registration, they can get impounded. If the human doesn't have a license, they can get cited, or even arrested. Don't argue just to argue.

You didn't read my sentence carefully, did you? You say it was incorrect, then you repeated the sentence back to me with no logical changes. You should stop disagreeing with content you agree with. Maybe you could point to each word on my sentence, saying it aloud until you understand it. You have bad habit of skimming what other people write.

Anyway, the reason why I stressed licensed and insured drivers and cars (regardless of what you were trying to say) is that having licensed and insured EUC riders (and eBikers) won't do much to improving safety when the PEV isn't particularly dangerous (recent death not withstanding).

My strong opinion is that urban streets (not roads...a road isn't a street, by the way, which people here seem to confuse) are the primary cause of traffic deaths, and specifically pedestrian deaths, and NYC is especially egregious with its one-way street design (before 1940's, NYC had normal two-way streets). You'd only put on one way streets to make cars go faster.

Finally, NYC streets were widened sometime in the 1950's by removing the wide sidewalks to make room for car storage. 

[Treatz]

32 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

You didn't read my sentence carefully, did you? You say it was incorrect, then you repeated the sentence back to me with no logical changes. You should stop disagreeing with content you agree with. Maybe you could point to each word on my sentence, saying it aloud until you understand it. You have bad habit of skimming what other people write.

 

You are correct. I misread and then popped off. So, I apologize and eat crow.

[hal2000]

Let’s just remember that guns (cars, motorbikes, bikes, EUCs, etc.) don’t kill people.

[GoGeorgeGo]

2 hours ago, LanghamP said:

You didn't read my sentence carefully, did you? You say it was incorrect, then you repeated the sentence back to me with no logical changes. You should stop disagreeing with content you agree with. Maybe you could point to each word on my sentence, saying it aloud until you understand it. You have bad habit of skimming what other people write.

Anyway, the reason why I stressed licensed and insured drivers and cars (regardless of what you were trying to say) is that having licensed and insured EUC riders (and eBikers) won't do much to improving safety when the PEV isn't particularly dangerous (recent death not withstanding).

My strong opinion is that urban streets (not roads...a road isn't a street, by the way, which people here seem to confuse) are the primary cause of traffic deaths, and specifically pedestrian deaths, and NYC is especially egregious with its one-way street design (before 1940's, NYC had normal two-way streets). You'd only put on one way streets to make cars go faster.

Finally, NYC streets were widened sometime in the 1950's by removing the wide sidewalks to make room for car storage. 

Just want to point out, legislators dont care if a liscense makes it safer to operate or not. They care about getting their cut from the accreditation agency. A small fee per liscense issued, a bi annual renewal. Registration fees, excise taxes. Thats why they would regulate, not because they want us to be safe. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by GoGeorgeGo

[Sumako]

49 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Just want to point out, legislators dont care if a liscense makes it safer to operate or not. They care about getting their cut from the accreditation agency. A small fee per liscense issued, a bi annual renewal. Registration fees, excise taxes. Thats why they would regulate, not because they want us to be safe. 

Wow. Would that explain why after a month and change we have heard “Fuck All” about this highly dangerous race from any news paper or online news source? 

Maybe by getting over @evX_Mick’s video we could really insure that there will be no temptation to legislate fuckery over our wheels?

[GoGeorgeGo]

38 minutes ago, Sumako said:

Wow. Would that explain why after a month and change we have heard “Fuck All” about this highly dangerous race from any news paper or online news source? 

Maybe by getting over @evX_Mick’s video we could really insure that there will be no temptation to legislate fuckery over our wheels?

I mean lets be real, it was a youtube video with 2200 views. All of which are EUC riders and are not about to taddle on themselves. Its not like it was some viral video. Kujis sherman review has 4+ million views. 

The fear of legislation over injury is honestly misplaced imo. A major fire incident is far more likely to cause issue. Even with the death of a famous actor, we will skirt under the radar due to having 1 wheel. No one cares about an allycat race, they care about their position in politics and the state/city budget.  De Blasio will be forced to clamp down because of the public outrage at the death of a famous actor. 200 people died in motorway incidents last year in New York and no one gave a fuck.

Money and power is all that matters to these politicians. Im glad we as a commumity recognize dangerous riding and chastise that behavior, but it has nothing to do with laws and everything to do with being a member of a society. Being a good human being and watching out for the safety of others

Edit to add: if the ally cat videos had millions of views thats a completely different discussion, as it would lend to more people engaging in those activities and highlight something that is clearly an issue for high population areas. But the reality is it was not a trending video, its not starting some.new nationwide craze. Its just a bunch of guys in our small community being a bit reckless. Every community has extremists

Edited June 15, 2021 by GoGeorgeGo

[Sumako]

5 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

I mean lets be real, it was a youtube video with 2200 views. All of which are EUC riders and are not about to taddle on themselves. Its not like it was some viral video. Kujis sherman review has 4+ million views. 

The fear of legislation over injury is honestly misplaced imo. A major fire incident is far more likely to cause issue. Even with the death of a famous actor, we will skirt under the radar due to having 1 wheel. No one cares about an allycat race, they care about their position in politics and the state/city budget.  De Blasio will be forced to clamp down because of the public outrage at the death of a famous actor. 200 people died in motorway incidents last year in New York and no one gave a fuck.

Money and power is all that matters to these politicians. Im glad we as a commumity recognize dangerous riding and chastise that behavior, but it has nothing to do with laws and everything to do with being a member of a society. Being a good human being and watching out for the safety of others

True Story

[Camenbert]

2 hours ago, hal2000 said:

Let’s just remember that guns (cars, motorbikes, bikes, EUCs, etc.) don’t kill people.

Sorry I dont get it. What you try to demonstrate, mixing guns & EUCs ?

A EUC is a 30KG plastic thing that goes 40 kph at 40 cm from the ground. In case of a collision, it is mostly far from vital organs (head, upper body), it will break legs (already horrible I agree).

We should be more worry of a dramatic event due to a EUC in mountainous regions, where a "lost" wheel can easily bounce down hundred yards.
If someone is on the way, it can be nasty - and the emergency are not near like in a city.

There are thousand beautiful video of such "dangerous" and "tempting" practices.
Should we discuss about these ?

Are you more afraid of city ban, or path ban?

[Sumako]

Looks like @GoGeorgeGois the only source expert in the room. Can’t be. There has to be other youtubers here.

Anyhow in NYC when the news is talking about eScooters, they are talking about these things: 

These escooters are on the threat of being heavily regulated and out right banned. There are a bunch of law suits as well. The news over there are expecting that either an ebike/emoped or kick escooter or this ugly ass thing to be the source of the actors death. Guess what’s not on the news radar? 

 

[Lex Smith]

9 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Here's a list of famous people killed in car crashes. I wonder if that will result in banning cars.

https://www.thefamouspeople.com/car-accident.php

Some key differences invalidate this comparison 

1.  Actors also drive cars - as well as the majority of tax payers.

2. Cars have been around and a part of most countries culture for over a hundred years

3.  It is a multi billion dollar industry 

4.  There is no currently widely available replacement for much of the functionality of a car.

The majority of people out there have never seen an EUC in the flesh.  The majority of people that have seen them think they'd never be able to ride one or are inherently dangerous. 

The political cost of banning EUC'S would be virtually zero.  Can't even imagine the cost of trying an outright ban on cars.

Having said that our current socialist leaning leader is approaching that very goal but via a death of a thousand cuts method (additional taxes on fuel, taxes on cars, replacing car space with bus lanes etc.)

Edited June 15, 2021 by Lex Smith

[Sumako]

12 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

I keep missing something. The whole premise of this thread and related news stories should center around protecting pedestrians. One does not need a highly integrated cortex to understand that principle. 

Actually, this thread was created as a cancel culture style hit job against a prominent youtube content creator who did a lot for the EUC community. This is happening because said creator posted !!!ONE!!! video that appears to show reckless actions by pro euc riders.  

[Roadpower]

4 minutes ago, Sumako said:

Actually, this thread was created as a cancel culture style hit job against a prominent youtube content creator who did a lot for the EUC community. This is happening because said creator posted !!!ONE!!! video that appears to show reckless actions by pro euc riders.  

Somehow I don't think "doing a lot for the community" means showcasing threats to the public. Getting canceled is exactly what I would like to avoid which is why this thread exists.