MSuper Pro?

[EMA]

the torque of an electric motor is basically the force/ability to spin the motor (and it's flat/costant )

bigger motor (wider or thicker magnet) has more torque, more autority in our case, in real life = acceleration

top speed is related to kv not to the size of the motor

nikola,msx and monster has the same motor, the same torque, what you feel different dipends on wheel diameter, leverage, firmware and other parameters, but the torque is exactly the same

smaller wheel respond better at lower speed and loose autority at high speed.

 

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, EMA said:

the torque of an electric motor is basically the force/ability to spin the motor (and it's flat/costant )

bigger motor (wider or thicker magnet) has more torque, more autority in our case, in real life = acceleration

top speed is related to kv not to the size of the motor

As top speed is related to kv, torque is related to km. This second constant is just the reciprocal value (with some pi and 60 to come from rpm to radiant per second).

So both (speed and torque) have exactly the same relationship to the magnets (flux) - "size of the motor"

1 hour ago, EMA said:

nikola,msx and monster has the same motor, the same torque, what you feel different dipends on wheel diameter, leverage, firmware and other parameters, but the torque is exactly the same

The same motor can be made more "torquie" (less high speed) by putting more windings (with less diameter wires) around the coil.

Ps.: As the wheel diameter has a direct influence on speed and torque...

Edited January 28, 2020 by Chriull

[RagingGrandpa]

(nothing to see here)

Edited January 28, 2020 by RagingGrandpa
misunderstanding

[RagingGrandpa]

 

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I’m having trouble understanding the exact meaning of the word ”torque” used here at our forum

 

2 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I agree with you and I die a little inside when I read about the torque

Agreed, lol, but @mrelwood I thought you gave up trying to explain the mechanics of EUC

It makes me wonder if we could refer to and quote something, as a single-post explanation of "how acceleration works" the next 200 times this comes up...

[erk1024]

9 hours ago, Trevor Phillips said:

i don’t need 100v speed

@Marty Backe Reported that the 100V Nikola was a little zippier, and there have been reports that the 100V Monster is a little zippier than its 84V counterpart. So there may be other advantages to a Gotway 100V model other than just top speed. 

[Marty Backe]

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I apologise for off-topicing a bit, but I’m having trouble understanding the exact meaning of the word ”torque” used here at our forum, as the translated terms I was able to find are a bit vague.

From Wikipedia, amount of torque = force * distance (* angle).

When talking about torque of an EUC though, what does it mean?

1) The amount of force that can be applied at the front end of the pedals?

2) The maximum rotational force the wheel can provide?

Since the distance to the pedals and to the tire edge is still the same on the MSPro, the ratio of input and output torque is still the same. So accelerating and hill climbing requires and uses the same amount of physical force as before. The only variable that can be increased is the maximum amount of rotational force the wheel can provide at the tire.

But that wouldn’t affect hill climbing or acceleration at all. Unless you accelerate so fast that the previous MSX would have overleaned, which I think someone calculated earlier being practically impossible due to the short pedals. I’m of course not talking about a high speed over-lean, but hill climbing speeds.

So why is this increased torque such a favourable feature on the MSPro? Just like there is no point of increasing the top speed to 100km/h if you only ride at 40km/h, what is the point of increasing the MSX torque if it already has more than enough?

I use the word torque to describe the sense of power experienced when moving from 0-mph to X-mph. When I'm conversing with people, everyone seems to understand the meaning.

If the MSP has more "torque" than the MSX, it will climb steep hills effortlessly (not having to squeeze the side of the wheel to force the wheel up the hill. I imagine it will also accelerate faster with less effort (lean).

I feel that a larger wheel with a motor that offers more "torque" will compensate for the poor acceleration that usually comes with a bigger wheel vs the smaller/lighter wheels.

Maybe "torque" is the wrong word. Is there a better single-word that can express the same thought?

[RagingGrandpa]

6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

If the MSP has more "torque" than the MSX, it will climb steep hills effortlessly (not having to squeeze the side of the wheel to force the wheel up the hill. I imagine it will also accelerate faster with less effort (lean).

This is the fun and interesting part of the EUC torque fallacy... but I feel like this MSP thread is the wrong place to explore it. Didn't we have another thread on the mechanical physics of EUC, that we could jump to?

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said:

This is the fun and interesting part of the EUC torque fallacy... but I feel like this MSP thread is the wrong place to explore it. Didn't we have another thread on the mechanical physics of EUC, that we could jump to?

Probably. I tend to start tuning out. I just know how the different wheels feel based on geometry, motor sizes, etc. Sometimes it feels like the discussions turn too pedantic for my taste, but that's just me.

[Old Glider]

45 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

......... I just know how the different wheels feel based on geometry, motor sizes, etc. Sometimes it feels like the discussions turn too pedantic for my taste, but that's just me.

A little less talk, alot more....OVERHEAT HILL. LOL

Edited January 28, 2020 by Old Glider

[RagingGrandpa]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Probably. I tend to start tuning out. I just know how the different wheels feel based on geometry, motor sizes, etc. Sometimes it feels like the discussions turn too pedantic for my taste, but that's just me.

Heh, you're right. Those threads rush into theoretical sciences and are only interesting to the people who were interested in force diagrams beforehand. The posts have very little likelihood to hold the interest of 'normal people'
as much as any EUC rider can be considered normal

Assuming for a moment that the goal here is to:
"Identify which property or specification of an EUC most strongly corresponds to its maximum practical acceleration"
(assuming a standard rider and a standard road surface)...

... forum posts, science texts, and theoretical discussion are unlikely to be an effective teaching method for many interested EUC lovers.

We are in the YouTube age- prime time for someone to design and record a physical demonstration, Bill Nye style   Planks of wood, bathroom scales, good lighting, clickbait tape and fancy graphics. Hit us in the face with a real demo showing how foot position, pedal length, power pads, tire diameter, and motor ratings can change how much acceleration we feel - it's what Marty and most others care about!

^ calling all vloggers

Edited January 28, 2020 by RagingGrandpa

[FlyboyEUC]

Getting back to topic, I rode the MSX and the MSP up a steep short rode and recorded the data. However, I'm not sure what to look for in the data to determine if the MSP has more torque. SHould I just post the raw data and have people analyze and guess which one was the MSP and which was the MSX? That could be fun. @Seba or any other data crunching guys, can you help me out?

[mrelwood]

Thank you, @Chriull and @mike, I now understand where the misunderstanding is.

Quote

The posts have very little likelihood to hold the interest of 'normal people'

Which I guess is why the fallacy remains...

Quote

Hit us in the face with a real demo showing how foot position, pedal length, power pads, tire diameter, and motor ratings can change how much acceleration we feel - it's what Marty and most others care about!

This is a great idea! I just might try to cook up something.

8 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I use the word torque to describe the sense of power experienced when moving from 0-mph to X-mph.

So, this is where the misunderstanding is. Actual torque vs. the sense of torque. We don’t refer to the ”sense of speed” by just ”speed” though, as it would also cause misunderstandings.

Changing the motor shouldn’t affect the ”sense of power” very much at all. I guess people’s experiences on the 2200W motor on the 18XL is the best example thus far.

Quote

Maybe "torque" is the wrong word. Is there a better single-word that can express the same thought?

”Zippyness”?

1 hour ago, Flyboy10 said:

Getting back to topic, I rode the MSX and the MSP up a steep short rode and recorded the data.

Interesting! Please, do post the raw data! It’ll be interesting to guess. But I am very interested to hear wether it felt any different! Please don’t hold back!

The EUCO video still not up?

Edited January 29, 2020 by mrelwood

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Flyboy10 said:

Getting back to topic, I rode the MSX and the MSP up a steep short rode and recorded the data. However, I'm not sure what to look for in the data to determine if the MSP has more torque. SHould I just post the raw data and have people analyze

Yes please. Could lead (hopefully, maybe) to some nice info!

1 hour ago, Flyboy10 said:

and guess which one was the MSP and which was the MSX?

Pfff... If there are real differences in the motor this could show up - especially since i have some msx 84V overlean logs...

If yours is an 84V?

Great would be infos on the battery configurations!

...and much more lift cut of speed logs of both wheels  

But don't have any idea how easy/safe/dangerous it is to let these power wheels spin up while holding them in the hand?! ... with my easy peasy KS16S it's no problem ...

25 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Zippyness

I like this expression! Especially as it seems much of the easiness of acceleration (can) come(s) from firmware looking at latest KS wheels and the 2.0 FW...

And it takes away any correlation to real torque, wheel geometry and just expresses the sensation while riding!

[FlyboyEUC]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

If yours is an 84V?

They were all 100v wheels. I'll need to delete some data from the logs before I post them tonight. They have my phone info in the log  as well as GPS data.

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, Flyboy10 said:

Getting back to topic, I rode the MSX and the MSP up a steep short rode and recorded the data. However, I'm not sure what to look for in the data to determine if the MSP has more torque. SHould I just post the raw data and have people analyze and guess which one was the MSP and which was the MSX? That could be fun. @Seba or any other data crunching guys, can you help me out?

Forget the data. Use your senses and tell us if there's a perceived difference 

[FlyboyEUC]

Here you go. There were 2 riders and 2 wheels: MSX and the MSP, both 100v. Let me know if you can tell a difference from the data. 

31 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Use your senses and tell us if there's a perceived difference 

I was too busy thinking "ow ow ow my ankle and shins are killing me" and "don't fall".  Also, weight is a factor as the Pro weighs almost 6 lbs more. Both wheels felt like 19" wheels climbing a hill. They also had different tire treads. What test scenarios do you guys want to see and what wheels do you think we should compare the MSP against?

Analyze This.zip

[meepmeepmayer]

I'm really surprised you didn't feel an immediate oomph difference when you tried both wheels back-to-back. Like between a 16 and 18 incher. What is a higher torque/bigger magnets motor good for if not for that? Strange.

[Marty Backe]

46 minutes ago, Flyboy10 said:

Here you go. There were 2 riders and 2 wheels: MSX and the MSP, both 100v. Let me know if you can tell a difference from the data. 

I was too busy thinking "ow ow ow my ankle and shins are killing me" and "don't fall".  Also, weight is a factor as the Pro weighs almost 6 lbs more. Both wheels felt like 19" wheels climbing a hill. They also had different tire treads. What test scenarios do you guys want to see and what wheels do you think we should compare the MSP against?

Analyze This.zip 68.49 kB · 2 downloads

Yeah, that's disappointing if you couldn't really notice a difference. I think I'll have one next week so I'll know when I do my hill tests. And Jason doesn't care if I beat the hell out of it, so I never worry about falling 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Marty Backe

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

5 hours ago, Chriull said:

...and much more lift cut off speed logs of both wheels  

There was a mistake, I corrected it quickly 

Edited January 29, 2020 by buell47

[Seba]

8 hours ago, Flyboy10 said:

Getting back to topic, I rode the MSX and the MSP up a steep short rode and recorded the data. However, I'm not sure what to look for in the data to determine if the MSP has more torque. SHould I just post the raw data and have people analyze and guess which one was the MSP and which was the MSX? That could be fun. @Seba or any other data crunching guys, can you help me out?

As @Marty Backe said, data won't give any meaningful informations. I assume that both MSX and MSP had significant power/torque margin during tests. Even if wheel has more power or torque, if you can't use it because both wheels are tuned in similar way, there will be no difference. You'll still need to push it with the same effort to go up the same hill under same conditions. A good example is KS-18L/XL with 2.0 firmware. The same wheel, the same controler and motor. But King Song changed control algorithms, making the old wheel like new - more torque and power in terms of actual rider experience and feeling.

[EMA]

4 hours ago, Flyboy10 said:

Here you go. There were 2 riders and 2 wheels: MSX and the MSP, both 100v. Let me know if you can tell a difference from the data. 

I was too busy thinking "ow ow ow my ankle and shins are killing me" and "don't fall".  Also, weight is a factor as the Pro weighs almost 6 lbs more. Both wheels felt like 19" wheels climbing a hill. They also had different tire treads. What test scenarios do you guys want to see and what wheels do you think we should compare the MSP against?

Analyze This.zip 68.49 kB · 8 downloads

London, Moskov, nyc, seems msx maybe with a 1230wh machine

Rio, Sydney, Tokio seems MSP to me

i don't think there will'be a big difference between the 2 wheels, we just need to ride it

Edited January 29, 2020 by EMA

[mrelwood]

I think London and Moscow might be the 1230Wh battery one, due to the voltage drop. Rio and Sydney are the big battery MSXs. And while the GW current measurement is always pretty wild, reaching 200A, 18000W and 14% battery when accelerating to 35km/h in ”Paris” must be a different motor.

Those values are actually pretty alarming.

[Sebrios]

9 hours ago, Flyboy10 said:

What test scenarios do you guys want to see and what wheels do you think we should compare the MSP against?

@Flyboy10 against a MSX84V

I think many of the MSX84V havent upgraded to 100V, but were/are considering the MSP.

Will it be worth it?

(im included here)

[RagingGrandpa]

13 hours ago, Chriull said:

...and much more lift cut off speed logs of both wheels 

From earlier:

[Chriull]

12 hours ago, Flyboy10 said:

Here you go. There were 2 riders and 2 wheels: MSX and the MSP, both 100v. Let me know if you can tell a difference from the data. 

I was too busy thinking "ow ow ow my ankle and shins are killing me" and "don't fall".  Also, weight is a factor as the Pro weighs almost 6 lbs more. Both wheels felt like 19" wheels climbing a hill. They also had different tire treads. What test scenarios do you guys want to see and what wheels do you think we should compare the MSP against?

Analyze This.zip 68.49 kB · 14 downloads

Your phone/the bluetooth connection/the wheels/euc world or whatever has some problems - seems as there are duplicate values within some hundredth of a second.... Maybe this as an already known "problem"? 

Not really disturbing for drawing graphs, but it renders acceleration calculations useless... So my idea to look for some different correlations between acceleration and current for the two wheels is dead by now. Maybe i make sometimes some corrections to the locks or look at this "manually".

But anyhow as @Marty Backe and @Seba already wrote - as long as there is no noticable difference (range per Wh, zippyness or whatever) ....