MSuper Pro?

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, Mrd777 said:

Kind of disagree, as I feel the difference isn’t worth the upgrade. It’s really not that much a difference, I was surprised..

I'm really looking forward to the MSP for my mountains. I guess it may not have universal appeal though.

[EMA]

15 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm really looking forward to the MSP for my mountains. I guess it may not have universal appeal though.

your hills will show the best of the wheel, the great benefit of the increased motor size should be less amp draw, in one one word range imho

[fujio001]

I wonder what would happen  if the 21700 cells in the MSP were replaced with high quality Samsung 21700 cells that can easily put out 30 amps without too much heat?

[FrankFilmer]

16 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I get mine on Saturday. Will soon find out 

Great to hear NY finally got around to shipping it to you...🙈🕣🙊🕣🙉

[FreeRide]

On 2/11/2020 at 11:50 PM, Mrd777 said:

Kind of disagree, as I feel the difference isn’t worth the upgrade. It’s really not that much a difference, I was surprised..

I think it looks like a good product upgrade, that is if you were looking at an 84V MSX wheel. but it is not a good upgrade for someone that already owns the MSX.  

Still have to wait for Marty's test, because maybe in certain circumstances it might be worth it for someone to upgrade their existing wheel.  Still I think this is more of a case of updating an existing product to position it better in the line up, and maybe, as one reviewer speculated, this is really a new base for yet another new wheel announcement in the future.

[Planemo]

On 2/12/2020 at 9:57 AM, fujio001 said:

I wonder what would happen  if the 21700 cells in the MSP were replaced with high quality Samsung 21700 cells that can easily put out 30 amps without too much heat?

I wonder that too. The recent testing which has now been completed by a buddy in the UK saw rather disappointing range results. Virtually identical to his 100v 1230wh MSX. Very surprising. Whether that can be attributed in part or in full to the 21700 cells or not I cannot confirm. But data is data. Same rider, same route, same temps (around 7 deg C) and averaged out both ways to account for headwind. It could just be that 21700's are more susceptible to cold temperatures than 18650's, I don't know.

As has been said, you would have to really want an MSP if you already have an MSX of any variant. As it stands, unless you ride the streets of San Fran or do a lot of off-roading (for which the MSP does have a better tyre) there doesn't seem much point to the MSP. For urban riding, even the benefit of the extra torque doesn't really add up when it's braking isn't matched by the same increase. Certainly reported as worse by the same rider when compared to his 1230wh. This could be simply due to the weight difference, but the MSP apparently didn't inspire confidence and braking distances had to be increased as a result.

The upshot is, I will be sticking with my 84v 1859wh and he will be keeping his 100v 1230wh.

Due to the potential MSP range issue which I would still like to see more data on, I am not convinced that any non MSX owner looking to buy an MSX/MSP should go straight for the MSP. Whilst it would at first seem to be an ideal 84v MSX replacement, I'm not sure it is (for most people).

No doubt the MSP is still a 'good' wheel, that's for sure. But buyers need to choose carefully what they want out of a wheel rather than just thinking the latest one must be the best option, even if just looking in the the 84v class.

[Marty Backe]

22 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I wonder that too. The recent testing which has now been completed by a buddy in the UK saw rather disappointing range results. Virtually identical to his 100v 1230wh MSX. Very surprising. Whether that can be attributed in part or in full to the 21700 cells or not I cannot confirm. But data is data. Same rider, same route, same temps (around 7 deg C) and averaged out both ways to account for headwind. It could just be that 21700's are more susceptible to cold temperatures than 18650's, I don't know.

As has been said, you would have to really want an MSP if you already have an MSX of any variant. As it stands, unless you ride the streets of San Fran or do a lot of off-roading (for which the MSP does have a better tyre) there doesn't seem much point to the MSP. For urban riding, even the benefit of the extra torque doesn't really add up when it's braking isn't matched by the same increase. Certainly reported as worse by the same rider when compared to his 1230wh. This could be simply due to the weight difference, but the MSP apparently didn't inspire confidence and braking distances had to be increased as a result.

The upshot is, I will be sticking with my 84v 1859wh and he will be keeping his 100v 1230wh.

Due to the potential MSP range issue which I would still like to see more data on, I am not convinced that any non MSX owner looking to buy an MSX/MSP should go straight for the MSP. Whilst it would at first seem to be an ideal 84v MSX replacement, I'm not sure it is (for most people).

No doubt the MSP is still a 'good' wheel, that's for sure. But buyers need to choose carefully what they want out of a wheel rather than just thinking the latest one must be the best option, even if just looking in the the 84v class.

Very interesting, particularly the range. Very shortly I will be doing a side-by-side range test with a 1845wh MSX and the MSP. Two riders at about the same weight. I hope your buddy was wrong, otherwise I'll be Ubering home as the MSX rider continues on his way 

[Planemo]

50 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Very interesting, particularly the range. Very shortly I will be doing a side-by-side range test with a 1845wh MSX and the MSP. Two riders at about the same weight. I hope your buddy was wrong, otherwise I'll be Ubering home as the MSX rider continues on his way 

Yeah it's such a large discrepancy that I have to keep a very open mind about it at this point. Obviously there could be a multitude of reasons why - duff cells etc. It will be interesting to see what results you get. I would have expected it to be pretty similar to the range of the 84v 1859wh msx, but it was miles out. The journey ended with 55% on the 100v MSX and 58% on the MSP. And that's with peaks of 40mph on the MSX and only 34mph on the MSP.

The same journey for me on the 84v 1859wh (and I am heavier) leaves me about 70% at similar peak speeds to the MSP.

[Marty Backe]

55 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Yeah it's such a large discrepancy that I have to keep a very open mind about it at this point. Obviously there could be a multitude of reasons why - duff cells etc. It will be interesting to see what results you get. I would have expected it to be pretty similar to the range of the 84v 1859wh msx, but it was miles out. The journey ended with 55% on the 100v MSX and 58% on the MSP. And that's with peaks of 40mph on the MSX and only 34mph on the MSP.

The same journey for me on the 84v 1859wh (and I am heavier) leaves me about 70% at similar peak speeds to the MSP.

Wait. You do realize that 55% of a 1230wh wheel corresponds to ~675wh of remaining capacity and 58% of 1800wh is ~1045wh of remaining capacity.

The MSP indeed has a lot more range than that MSX.

I don't think it's as bad as you are thinking it is.

A proper range test involves running the wheel until tilt-back kicks you off.

EDIT: The 1230wh MSX has 68% capacity of the 1800wh MSP. Based on the percentages that you gave me, the MSP is actually very close to that MSX (within 200wh of consumed energy). That difference could be attributed to how the wheel was ridden.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Marty Backe

[Planemo]

27 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Wait. You do realized that 58% of a 1230wh wheel corresponds to ~675wh of remaining capacity and 58% of 1800wh is ~1045wh of remaining capacity.

I think your math is skewed somewhere. You need to focus on what has been used rather than what is remaining.

A 1230wh wheel that shows as 55% remaining means it has used 45%. 1230 - 45% is a 553wh drop (used).
A 1800wh wheel that shows as 58% remaining means it has used 42%. 1800 - 42% is a 756wh drop (used).
A 1859wh wheel that shows as 70% remaining means it has used 30%. 1859 - 30% is a 557wh drop (used).

The point being that the MSP was hitting far lower speeds than the MSX yet used quite bit more power. It also used a lot more than an 84v MSX which was travelling at about the same speed (with a lighter rider on the MSP to boot).

To further clarify it, the figures between the 100v MSX and my 84v MSX look about right, given the weight difference between my buddy and me. We are using about the same Wh, despite his higher top speeds on occasion.

[Marty Backe]

39 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I think your math is skewed somewhere. You need to focus on what has been used rather than what is remaining.

A 1230wh wheel that shows as 55% remaining means it has used 45%. 1230 - 45% is a 553wh drop (used).
A 1800wh wheel that shows as 58% remaining means it has used 42%. 1800 - 42% is a 756wh drop (used).
A 1859wh wheel that shows as 70% remaining means it has used 30%. 1859 - 30% is a 557wh drop (used).

The point being that the MSP was hitting far lower speeds than the MSX yet used quite bit more power. It also used a lot more than an 84v MSX which was travelling at about the same speed (with a lighter rider on the MSP to boot).

To further clarify it, the figures between the 100v MSX and my 84v MSX look about right, given the weight difference between my buddy and me. We are using about the same Wh, despite his higher top speeds on occasion.

Yeah, those are the numbers I was working with. I figured a ~200wh difference in performance wasn't the same as saying the 1800wh MSP got the same range as the 1230wh MSX.

Too many variables. I do have a very repeatable range test route that I use so I hope to have an apples to apples comparison.

I'm expecting/hoping that the 1800wh MSP will achieve ~60-miles vs my ~50-miles on the 1600wh MSX.

Edited February 14, 2020 by Marty Backe

[Planemo]

38 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I figured a ~200wh difference in performance wasn't the same as saying the 1800wh MSP got the same range as the 1230wh MSX.

But it does in our example. That's what I am saying. Whichever way you try to cut it, even the total range between the two wheels tested is close. So yes, I am saying one thing, you are saying the other but the end result is the same.

The test above was the 1st leg (15 miles) of a return journey. 30 miles round trip. The MSX would use around 1100wh so 200Wh left. The MSP around 1500Wh so 300wh left. That ain't much difference.

The additional 200Wh used by the MSP over the MSX per 15 miles is not to be sniffed at IMO. Unless there is a major problem with the MSP tested over here, good luck on your 60 mile optimism because my buddy rinsed it in about 30 miles

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

But it does in our example. That's what I am saying. Whichever way you try to cut it, even the total range between the two wheels tested is close. So yes, I am saying one thing, you are saying the other but the end result is the same.

The test above was the 1st leg (15 miles) of a return journey. 30 miles round trip. The MSX would use around 1100wh so 200Wh left. The MSP around 1500Wh so 300wh left. That ain't much difference.

The additional 200Wh used by the MSP over the MSX per 15 miles is not to be sniffed at IMO. Unless there is a major problem with the MSP tested over here, good luck on your 60 mile optimism because my buddy rinsed it in about 30 miles

30-miles would be horrendous (at my 18 to 21 mph average range test). If my testing shows anything like that, than this wheel is guaranteed to be a dud - I won't buy one.

[RagingGrandpa]

 

23 hours ago, Alexutlang said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdDla3dcXrc

Oh wow... first time I've seen a heatsink exposed to the wheel cavity. Did any previous wheel have a hidden heatsink like this?

Concerns me about fouling the heatsink with mud, super difficult to clean in there.

[Arbolest]

37 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

 

Oh wow... first time I've seen a heatsink exposed to the wheel cavity. Did any previous wheel have a hidden heatsink like this?

Concerns me about fouling the heatsink with mud, super difficult to clean in there.

Basically all of them do this (at least the Gotways do). If they didn't they would start to overheat in a matter of minutes. Nothing to worry about.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Arbolest

[RagingGrandpa]

Oh wow, ok, my 84V MSX must have it too... damn I better get in there and clean!

 

[Tazarinho]

16 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Nice camouflage!

[FlyboyEUC]

KS wheels have the heatsink on top right above the wheel. That way the wind and or water can help cool it down.

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, Arbolest said:

Basically all of them do this (at least the Gotways do). If they didn't they would start to overheat in a matter of minutes. Nothing to worry about.

FYI, unfortunately not all Gotway wheels expose the heatsink to the outside. A notable exception is the Nikola. And the Mten3 doesn't. I think there's another one but it's not coming to mind at this moment. 

[RagingGrandpa]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

FYI, unfortunately not all Gotway wheels expose the heatsink to the outside. A notable exception is the Nikola. And the Mten3 doesn't. I think there's another one but it's not coming to mind at this moment. 

MCM5 appears to have no external heatsink as well...

[Arbolest]

9 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

FYI, unfortunately not all Gotway wheels expose the heatsink to the outside. A notable exception is the Nikola. And the Mten3 doesn't. I think there's another one but it's not coming to mind at this moment. 

 

9 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

MCM5 appears to have no external heatsink as well...

Wow, I didn't know that. How strange...

[RagingGrandpa]

 

10 hours ago, Meserias said:

https://eucservice.com/en/gotway-msuper/73-gotway-msuper-pro-speed-msps-1800wh-100v-lg-inr21700m50t-96kmh-unloaded.html

"MSPS"

Woah, MSP chassis with MSX motor? (Higher Kv lower Kt)

[xorbe]

"This is getting out of hand!  Now there are two of them!"

[FullTilt]

I’ve been wondering about this option as well as I’m not looking for more torque. But if indeed the MSPS is just a matter of swapping in MSX motor and keeping the 1800wh 21700 cells, wouldn’t you rather get the 2200wh 100v MSX (assuming you don’t have a preference for the new shell and possible differences in 21700 cell quality - LG vs used Tesla if that?)?

[RagingGrandpa]

13 hours ago, FullTilt said:

I’ve been wondering about this option as well as I’m not looking for more torque. But if indeed the MSPS is just a matter of swapping in MSX motor and keeping the 1800wh 21700 cells, wouldn’t you rather get the 2200wh 100v MSX (assuming you don’t have a preference for the new shell and possible differences in 21700 cell quality - LG vs used Tesla if that?)?

Well, for $100 more you get:

• Better headlamp
• Speakers
• Higher current USB port
• Arguably useful lift switch
• Arguably better tire
• Arguably better electronics & firmware
• Same top speed