Flying W Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 If this wheel handles water well it's a big step in the right direction. I'm trying to move closer to work so I can commute again (great excuse for yet another wheel haha) and being able to do it in all weather would really help. I love my RS HT, it's a beast off road. I'm always worried about the bearings though. I'd keep it for off roading in the dry. So far the things I haven't made it up were do to losing traction, no soft pedals from over powering like I get on the mcm5, which also climbs very well. The RS also deals with heat very well on long sustained climbs, I guess that's what happens when the shell is made of swiss cheese haha. If I can move and this wheel does well in the wild I think a V12 could very well be an awesome yr round commuter and wheel in general. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tasku Posted March 16, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 16, 2021 (edited) There was someone who pointed out being worried earlier, that how well the cooling is done and fearing how much it could limit the wheel. He was refering to the batteries being encased. The specs in manual said 35 degree hill climb ability. I was wondering about this, because I would assume 2500W motor should be able to handle 45 degree. This made me think of the saying "one step forward, 2 step backward". I would not be too surprised if it can actually handle the 45 degree briefly. Already imagining Marty taking the wheel to overheathill.. But I am very curious to hear what kind of solutions are used to maintain temperature. So far I figured temperature could be by design considered limiting factor, not something to alter in general by design. 1 hour ago, Planemo said: A water cooled system similar to PC's would be a start Water based cooling need to be replaced every 1-2years or bacteria what not will clutter it up. Non corrosive and non conducting water could be used.. I would rather see the leap taken into something better, by that I mean less maintenance needs. 1 hour ago, Flying W said: If this wheel handles water I watched some of the electronics involving speakers, bluetooth and such being atop of the wheel. The mainboard might be safer located but.. gotta wait and see. To seal the wheel entirely, would need to be something like encased cooling. @houseofjobMentioned the liquid coolant goo. The parts that need cooling in tesla are combined same area by design. Performance of these wheels come down to the heat management. If it would be easy or cheapest way around, we would see it more. If product cannot handle the cooling or maintaining heat, it will become limiting factor. Air as cooling solution also brings oxidizing and water, giving the product likely faster end date. That is what most products in this line has now - Air cooling. Encasing circuit boards and batteries in own compartments would give the better water protection rating. It can be hard to maintain optimal operation temperatures. Current battery tech (as example what is used in the wheels now li-on batteries) would need +10-45C operating range for ideal use case. Anyway I am getting side tracked, but would like to thank anyone throwing ideas about. When temperature solutions become better and more available, this line of tech should benefit of it. I do hope this product pushes boundaries and innovates and can't wait what 2021 brings. Edited March 16, 2021 by Tasku 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Sam Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 It's a shame the wheel had to get outed this way, InMotion obviously put some time into the design and I be they had big plans. Though I love findings secerets! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Planemo Posted March 16, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 16, 2021 42 minutes ago, Tasku said: Water based cooling need to be replaced every 1-2years Please. Regular car coolant systems last for many years these days, under far more arduous conditions than an euc. Probably longer than the life of said euc. When we say 'water' we dont mean it literally. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 I hope the fun doesn't end at 50% under load. With a 4p pack the voltage drop is s lot on my RS. This V12 may not have the same torque though either since the stated speed is quite high for a 16in class wheel. Either way I'd like the speed to stay down to 30% under load of possible. Inmotion is normally conservative with this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_bike_kite Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Tasku said: Water based cooling need to be replaced every 1-2years or bacteria what not will clutter it up. I'm trying to think when I added water cooling to my PC. I think it must be about 7 years ago. It's still going fine so I don't think that would be an issue. Real issues might be weight - you have an additional pump and all the liquid plus you still need the fan to move the heat away. There's the extra complexity. There's also the risk of having liquid around delicate electronics and huge batteries. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conecones Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) Thermoelectric cooling might be a worthwhile investment for this application. Small, no moving parts, super long service life. Cools when current flows one direction and heats when current is reversed. Anyone own a Koolatron cooler? I have one of these bad boys for over 10 years still works like the day I got it. USB coffee warmers use same tech. Hell it can even use temperature differential to generate electricity : https://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2009/ip_4.html Integrate this into the heat sink and battery enclosure? Run it as cooler when temps go above 40, run as heater when it dips below 10, and generate additional electricity when temps are in between? Edited March 17, 2021 by conecones 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ..... Posted March 17, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Planemo said: Please. Regular car coolant systems last for many years these days, under far more arduous conditions than an euc. Probably longer than the life of said euc. When we say 'water' we dont mean it literally. Liquid cooling in eucs is a terrible idea. Maybe in the VERY distant future. Cooling systems in automobiles helped pay my rent and afford me a LOT of tools and meals. Adding complexity to a device that is already made to large tolerances? We cant keep rain from getting in, but we're going to assume they can design a cooler to keep water in and near electronics? I think we have enough problems. Properly air cooled and an owner with a basic grasp of limitations, seems a much more realistic idea. Temperature warning lights and gauges arent standard, just to waste money. If liquid cooled was something that worked w/o fail, those indicators wouldnt be neccessary. I would like to see some REAL temprature warning and safety measures in place on the euc, however. Its also NOT uncommon for a car to cook itself into oblivion. Leave one idling in the hot sun with air conditioning on long enough.. I've seen more than one destroyed as such. Same wih air cooled engines. So expensive to try to make ANY device bulletproof. You give a moron a rubber mallet and he/she eventually destroy the Golden Gate bridge and somehow blame the architect.... I've learned to not get excited about new wheels much. Even more so, when a wheel isnt out yet. Such negativity I KNOW, but im so damn tired of having my realistic expectations crushed, then realizing the euc world is askew in its ratings of quality. My well of hope DID spring eternal, THEN I began buying euc's I'll wait until the v12 is out for a while, before I speculate ANYTHING about it. Edited March 17, 2021 by ShanesPlanet 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Kekafuch Posted March 17, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Rich Sam said: It's a shame the wheel had to get outed this way, InMotion obviously put some time into the design and I be they had big plans. Though I love findings secerets! Outed? Look at the discussion and free publicity! This is the EUC world’s equivalent of “leaking” a sex tape! 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Stern Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, conecones said: Thermoelectric cooling might be a worthwhile investment for this application. Small, no moving parts, super long service life. Cools when current flows one direction and heats when current is reversed. Anyone own a Koolatron cooler? I have one of these bad boys for over 10 years still works like the day I got it. USB coffee warmers use same tech. Hell it can even use temperature differential to generate electricity : https://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2009/ip_4.html Integrate this into the heat sink and battery enclosure? Run it as cooler when temps go above 40, run as heater when it dips below 10, and generate additional electricity when temps are in between? TE (Pellier) coolers have very low efficiency. Typical modules are only around 5% efficient. That's okay for a desktop application plugged in to the grid, but not so good for battery powered systems. Edited March 17, 2021 by Jon Stern 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gon2fast Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said: an owner with a basic grasp of limitations I almost fell out of my seat laughing... well stated my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 7 hours ago, Planemo said: A bit like every other vehicle in production. Maybe I'm wrong but, I don't think I could drive my car for 400miles straight while going over 120miles per hour without something breaking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Flying W Posted March 17, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 17, 2021 I'm sure the basic design is complete for the V12 so I'm just hoping that they put in line connectors for the hall sensor wires and motor cables so we don't need to unplug anything from the board to change the tire. I've never owned am inmotion wheel so maybe this is already common for them...I really wish gotway would do this too. My 16s has in line connectors. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Stern Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Silver said: Maybe I'm wrong but, I don't think I could drive my car for 400miles straight while going over 120miles per hour without something breaking. Ah! A Cadillac driver then? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mike_bike_kite Posted March 17, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 17, 2021 Is cooling really that much of an issue? The KS18XL has everything encased within the wheel and no venting but can happily cruise along at just under 30mph. The Nikola 100v also doesn't have venting either but can reach 40mph. We don't hear about overheating issues there. I appreciate Marty manages to overheat many wheels but he rides up mountains, in the desert, in the summer - I think it's fair to expect a wheel to want to cut out (not break but just tilt back and cut out). Why not stay with the setup where the heat sink is properly connected to the mosfets and then have the fins of the sink on the inside of the wheel where it's cooled by the rotating wheel. It works, it's cheap and it's fairly reliable. Otherwise you end up with designs like the hollow motor bearing which fixes issues we didn't actually have, adds to the weight, adds to the cost and breaks down continually. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 The problem with cooling is extreme loads causing the mosfets to heat up extremely fast, so they fry before a temperature alarm can kick in. Would liquid cooling help there? Could it convect away such extreme short-term heat faster? Anyways, the V12 has no liquid cooling which for now I see as a plus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eucVibes Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiiijojjo Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 8 hours ago, Kekafuch said: Outed? Look at the discussion and free publicity! This is the EUC world’s equivalent of “leaking” a sex tape! I haven't noticed any notable activity in other brands' discussions on this forum so if nothing else they are getting exposure while the competition is not being talked about. Not only that i notable release like this is sure to start all kinds of processes in the other euc brands. I suspect a wheel from Kingsong could be leaked/announced soon as a response. I'd honestly be surprised if we saw any leak/announcement from Gotway in the near future and if we did i'm sure it'd just be them frantically reshuffling old parts in a new plastic body to try to compete over market share of the (in my opinion) mid tier euc market. And know when i call this wheel a mid tier wheel it would of course be the king of the mid tier market with those stats (if they turn out to be true) or you can argue that it's the lowest end top tier wheel... It's al subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjam.nyc Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, Rich Sam said: It's a shame the wheel had to get outed this way, InMotion obviously put some time into the design and I be they had big plans. Though I love findings secerets! If this wheel is looking to release for summer, now is probably the time to start talking about it. I am not entirely sure things getting found out like this is entirely by accident. Especially in technology type sectors. Most of these "leaks" are expected, if not kind of pushed along to get talks going. Evx had that video ready to post pretty quickly. Which means they were pretty much ready to go. Edited March 17, 2021 by jimjam.nyc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asphalt Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 Driving Mode and Pedal Sensitivity If Pedal Sensitivity is the same as Hard mode and Soft Mode, then I welcome the gradient selection. Looking forward to feeling how soft the extreme “Soft” can get. Driving Mode - I can’t make out what the second and third options are, but if previous versions of the UI suggest anything, then it’s Commute and Off-road, although it’d be hilarious if it said Feather and Whale. 😂 I’m impressed that InMotion is allowing for user-adjustable riding characteristics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtlasP Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) Lots of errors here. Here are a couple just from the last page. On 3/16/2021 at 7:05 PM, Flying W said: I hope the fun doesn't end at 50% under load. With a 4p pack the voltage drop is s lot on my RS. This V12 may not have the same torque though either since the stated speed is quite high for a 16in class wheel. Either way I'd like the speed to stay down to 30% under load of possible. Inmotion is normally conservative with this. InMotion already changed their ways on this with the V11 which guarantees top speed down to 30% battery. (Meanwhile King Song has gone the opposite direction, and while older versions of their wheels used to be able to go down to 30% battery, now all their wheels start throttling at 50%.) Couple that with InMotion releasing a 40+ mph wheel, and the "conservative InMotion" trope is seeming outdated fast. Now I don't necessarily expect them to sustain 40+ mph down to 30% (probably not a good idea), but I imagine you'll see 40+ mph down to 50% and at least 30-something mph down to 30%--whether in pre-programmed chunks, or on a smooth curve similar to Begode's 80% limits. On 3/17/2021 at 8:10 AM, Asphalt said: Driving Mode and Pedal Sensitivity If Pedal Sensitivity is the same as Hard mode and Soft Mode, then I welcome the gradient selection. Looking forward to feeling how soft the extreme “Soft” can get. Driving Mode - I can’t make out what the second and third options are, but if previous versions of the UI suggest anything, then it’s Commute and Off-road, although it’d be hilarious if it said Feather and Whale. 😂 I’m impressed that InMotion is allowing for user-adjustable riding characteristics. Such user-adjustable riding characteristics, including the gradient selection for pedal hardness, have been in newer InMo wheels through the InMo app for years (at least V10[F] and V11, although not all options are in the older V8 or V5[F]--not sure about the V8F). There's nothing new there. (The joys of having so many people here who don't actually own/ride contemporary InMo wheels commenting on new InMo releases like they know what they're talking about....) Edited March 21, 2021 by AtlasP 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiiijojjo Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, AtlasP said: Now I don't necessarily expect them to sustain 40+ mph down to 30% (probably not a good idea), but I imagine you'll see 40+ mph down to 50% and at least 30-something mph down to 30%. My opinion about top speed in eucs in general and more specifically in regards to the V12 Sorry i still have not learned how to quote posts from other threads or rather post links to other threads To add to that, top speed is constantly throttling. You won't go as fast at 90% battery as you will on 100% and that trend is exponential. I don't even want to ride my RS at lower than 50% battery because i value top speed so much. Now i know i can still get a lot of range out of it but i'm simply not interested in riding at those low speeds or long ranges. My Msuper v3 and Tesla v1 did not throttle to the same extreme degree the RS does and sure it may be for safety purposes but as a result i already think about getting a 3200-3600Wh battery in my next wheel not for max range as i rarely ride more than 20km in a row but for prolonged max-ish speed. The single thing holding me back from 20km+ trips is the fact that those 20km cannot all be travelled at max-ish speed as max speed rapidly throttles. So in a 20km trip i end up having fun the first 5-10km and just wanting to get home for the last 10km. Edited March 17, 2021 by xiiijojjo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post AtlasP Posted March 17, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) Speaking of shape and impact on aesthetics, we have a pretty clear evolution with some clear principles emerging over the past couple generations: Round EUC bodies on larger, higher-end wheels are clearly a thing of the past as both battery sizes and speeds (therefore corresponding lighting demands) increase. Larger battery packs necessitate larger, squarer battery compartments. (Unless you comically oversize the rest of the housing like on the Nikola which is full of empty space and far larger than it should be.) Higher speeds necessitate better lighting, which requires lights to be as high as possible/near the top 'corner' of the wheel (instead of the 'front of the circle' like on older wheels such as the V8/V10/16S/18XL/Nikola/etc which is just too low to the ground for higher speeds). Nobody has achieved anything 'shapely/sporty' like the S18 on a remotely acceptable higher-end battery size (which the S18 simply is not at only 1100 Wh). This would likely require much more complicated physical battery configurations that I just don't anticipate seeing from current EUC manufacturers anytime soon. The question then merely becomes, "where do you put the square?" (+relative to the circle of the tire.) On wheels such as the Sherman and EX.N, the large square housing is quite low relative to the tire such that the lower corners negatively impact ground clearance particularly on inclines including curbs/stairs. This might be acceptable on very large-battery, heavy, mostly straight-line & street-only cruisers, but is obviously lacking regarding more demanding riding scenarios. Conversely the V11 and V12 raise the square housing such that its bottom starts roughly around the height of the pedal hangers, with a round semicircle below that just covering the spokes & hub of the tire. This was a radical departure when first seen on the V11, but now seeing it again on the V12 and also considering the reasons for this as well as experiencing the V11's superior lights & ground clearance/turning radius first-hand, I think it is clearly the way forward and will become increasingly common the next several generations. One could argue the MSX line was the first to utilize this basic shape, although really it was/is somewhere between the Sherman/EX.N on one hand and V11/V12 on the other in terms of the position/height of its housing. But certainly the same general idea/direction if not as pronounced. Ultimately I think InMotion is on the right side of history in the overall direction they're going here, with the biggest negatives being much more minor stylistic details that are secondary to this broader form/shape. So if you, like me, have some quibbles over some of those small aesthetic details/quirks, I can sympathize with that. But if you don't like the fundamental "round on bottom, relatively-square on top" design of both the V11 & especially the V12, then I think you'll likely need to get over it for the reasons outlined above. All hail "round on bottom, relatively-square on top". ;-) Edited March 18, 2021 by AtlasP 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 12 minutes ago, AtlasP said: Nobody has achieved anything 'shapely/sporty' like the S18 on a remotely acceptable higher-end battery size (which the S18 simply is not at only 1100 Wh). This would likely require much more complicated physical battery configurations that I just don't anticipate seeing from current EUC manufacturers anytime soon. The V11 has a single layer of cells on each side (unless I'm very mistaken). So for <2 cm/< 1 inch extra thickness on each side you could build a 3000Wh V11-shaped wheel. So it can be done. You just need to be a little creative with how you use your space. I don't think the square standardized packs as too bad as well, EUCs can still be more efficient with their interior volume with these (just look at all the empty space in the Gotways). Agree very much with the rest of your post. As the required components (non-tiny battery packs, lights, ...) demand more space, naturally the wheel gets higher and fills in the space that's right there, so it gets rectangular there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asphalt Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 5 hours ago, AtlasP said: Such user-adjustable riding characteristics, including the gradient selection for pedal hardness, have been in newer InMo wheels through the InMo app for years (at least V10[F] and V11, although not all options are in the older V8 or V5[F]--not sure about the V8F). There's nothing new there. (The joys of having so many people here who don't actually own/ride contemporary InMo wheels commenting on new InMo releases like they know what they're talking about....) InMotion hasn’t created a compelling alternative for me since the V8, so yeah, I guess I’ve missed out on being part of such a welcoming InMotion community. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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