INMOTION V12 (pre-release)

[mhpr262]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

This can't be right. 6kg for a steel tube?

But on the topic of weight: the new motors are the culprit. They're all so heavy. I wonder if this can be improved.

There recently was a thread on the r/unicycle subreddit where a guy showed his heavily used Sherman with the roll cage removed. Somebody asked about the roll cage and why it was missing and the owner answered that he did it in order to make the wheel lighter and that the difference was 6kg. 

 

And regarding the motor, I am very certain they can be improved. Motors can be built without an iron core, just the copper windings. They are much lighter and more efficient too. The German manufacturer of brushless high end R/C motors Kontronik offers a number of such motors. The downside is that the electronic speed/power controller must be a lot more sophisticated.

And manufacturers like Magnax offer brand new radial flux motors, which in theory ought to be pretty much perfect for our purposes due to their "natural" pancake shape. Unfortunately nobody has built such a motor in an outrunner configutation yet, which is what we would need for our wheels but it would be easily feasible.

Source: I asked that precise question in the comments under a youtube video from Magnax and a representative of the manufaturer answered me. He also told me there were no plans on their side to build such a motor with an outrunner topology for now  but he diid say it would possible (easily, I inferred).l

[UniVehje]

2 minutes ago, mhpr262 said:

There recently was a thread on the r/unicycle subreddit where a guy showed his heavily used Sherman with the roll cage removed. Somebody asked about the roll cage and why it was missing and the owner answered that he did it in order to make the wheel lighter and that the difference was 6kg. 

I'm not doubting the story. But could there be something lost in conversions? 6 lbs or 2.72 kg sounds perfectly believable. 6 kg (13.2 lbs) is a lot even for steel. 

2 hours ago, FullTilt said:

I wonder however if the 2200W V11 motor would be sufficient and Inmotion would just need to make the wheel 100V and tweak the software limits to achieve better performance. The 100V Nikola has just a 2000W motor (vs. 2500W Sherman or 2600W RS) and already gets up over 40mph. 

 

I wouldn't read too much into the watt number. It just means how much it can sustain longer periods without overheating. Peak power is always much more. You can increase the rated wattage just by taking an existing motor and improving ventilation on it. The performance is not really about wattage in modern wheels. The same motor with higher voltage can have higher RPM and is thus faster. The motors can be wound differently or have different size magnets but wattage number tells very little. I guess manufacturers compete on that number for spec sheets and because IC engines can be compared by it. Also, high speeds don't actually require a lot of power. Acceleration and climbing do. 

[mhpr262]

2 hours ago, UniVehje said:

I'm not doubting the story. But could there be something lost in conversions? 6 lbs or 2.72 kg sounds perfectly believable. 6 kg (13.2 lbs) is a lot even for steel. 

I have just found the thread. The guy says it weighed "10lbs/6kg". 10lbs is only 4.54kg though, so make of that what you will.

Sherman with the wider rim and Contiscoot 80/90-14 lookin might CRISP : ElectricUnicycle (reddit.com)

[null]

I suspect he eyeballed it, the number is very round. Hopefully someone changing their tire could weight them.

Edited March 8, 2021 by null

[AtlasP]

8 hours ago, FullTilt said:

If so, for the V12, I can see them keeping the same motor, the same wheel size, lose the suspension for weight savings, but tweak the software to fully utilize a bigger > 1845Wh 100V battery. A more powerful motor (and maybe addition battery capacity) might be needed if they wish to challenge current speed/torque/range records though.

We already know the tire size of the V12 will be 16x3--which means not the same wheel or motor. Also the weight of the V11's suspension is pretty negligible:

On 1/28/2021 at 12:48 PM, AtlasP said:

[T]he S18, V11, Nikola+, RS, and others are all within just a couple pounds of one another. Either you think all of these wheels are too heavy (which is a fair conclusion for some segment of lighter folks and/or those who need to carry their wheel around a lot), or else none of them are--the V11/suspension wheels in general are not uniquely heavy (nor is the S18 uniquely lighter by any significant margin). Pretty much all the higher-end-yet-mainstream wheels (i.e. excluding the Sherman and forthcoming ~$3500 Begode wheels) are all essentially between 55-60 lbs/quite a narrow band all things considered.

...[L]ook at the most direct comparison: the 18XL is basically the closest to the V11 without suspension, similarly tall & svelte form-factors, 84v speeds, within just ~50 Wh/essentially the same Wh, and the 18XL is 56lbs [compared to the V11's 60lbs]. So basically the V11 adds suspension, a wider 3" tire (instead of 2.5"), and a distinctly more powerful motor, all in just 4-5 total extra lbs.

That means minus the difference in motor/tire weight, the weight of the V11's suspension only adds a couple pounds/is quite negligible. All this "suspension adds so much complexity/weight" has been thoroughly debunked. It doesn't add more than a couple pounds, and the V11 has evidenced no major complications or problems due to its suspension--any issues have been with the hollow-bore motor which has nothing to do with its suspension (the same issues plaguing all the other [non-suspension] hollow-bore wheels like the RS). When they/if you eliminate the hollow-bore motor issues, the V11 looks essentially as reliable as any non-suspension wheel.

Edited March 8, 2021 by AtlasP

[meepmeepmayer]

15 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

We already know the tire size of the V12 will be 16x3

It is confirmed?

[Scottie888]

8 hours ago, FullTilt said:

If so, for the V12, I can see them keeping the same motor, the same wheel size, lose the suspension for weight savings, but tweak the software to fully utilize a bigger > 1845Wh 100V battery. A more powerful motor (and maybe addition battery capacity) might be needed if they wish to challenge current speed/torque/range records though.

It would certainly be great if IM can have a wheel to approach the Sherman, Mpro & EX.N, the current trifecta of speed & range, nevermind challenge or supersede them. Competition is always good news for us. However, for whatever the reason, a little voice in me says IM is too set in its risk averse roots to get into the race. I hope I'm wrong.

That said, I'm satisfied if GW (& whoever else) solves the hollow bore motor issues & emulates IM's fit & finish. There's room for differing objectives btwn mfgrs & its not necessarily a negative if there isn't one make to rule them all. 

[AtlasP]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

It is confirmed?

I thought that was part of what we've known as confirmed since the beginning--IM's first 100v wheel (hence 100v speeds), no suspension, largest battery in an IM wheel yet, 16x3 tire, a V11-style kickstand--before people started talking themselves in circles and losing track of what we do and don't know.

Also there was this official thread by InMotion discussing the V12's tire choice (and the V11-style kickstand on the V12) which explicitly cites a 3-12 moto tire size--isn't that the equivalent of 16x3? 

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by AtlasP

[UniVehje]

5 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

It is confirmed?

Somebody mentioned them worrying about Kingsong copying them if they announce too early. Maybe all the leaks are just to throw competitors off. Them “accidentally” leaking the tire size was maybe too obvious? And Liam used to agree that the next wheel should have suspension. Perhaps there’s a surprise brewing for us. For me it makes no sense to make a performance wheel after the V11 that is 16x3” and no suspension. 
 

Or maybe this is just wishful thinking 🤔 

[AtlasP]

1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

Perhaps there’s a surprise brewing for us. For me it makes no sense to make a performance wheel after the V11 that is 16x3” and no suspension. 

Again we forget what we already knew?

The V12 was not (at least originally) a pure 'successor' to the V11. Rather the V11 (IM's first suspension wheel) and the V12 (IM's first 100v wheel) were being developed in tandem/independent of one another, without IM knowing if either would become product viable. Ultimately it turned out the development of both were successful and both are coming to market.

Basically the V11 and V12 were two possible alternate futures from IM (either they focus on suspension sticking with 84v speeds, or they focus on 100v speeds instead of suspension), and we just happen to be getting both futures on top of one another (albeit in different models). In which case it could be the V-number-bigger-than-12 that might unite and provide both suspension and 100v speeds.

At least that was the narrative from about a year ago. Unless they decided to revise their original V12 plan/merge any part of it with their successes with the V11. Although I haven't seen anything from IM to indicate this (anything but the wishes of old men on internet forums).

Edit: At this point I think the safe bet is that it will be exactly what they told us it will be way back when, with the only wildcards being top speed, battery size, and aesthetics--and if it turns out to be anything else/more than that it will be a pleasant surprise. (Versus talking yourselves into a made-up/wishful narrative that explicitly contradicts what we were told way back when and then being disappointed.)

Edited March 8, 2021 by AtlasP

[FullTilt]

2 hours ago, AtlasP said:

Basically the V11 and V12 were two possible alternate futures from IM (either they focus on suspension sticking with 84v speeds, or they focus on 100v speeds instead of suspension), and we just happen to be getting both futures on top of one another (albeit in different models). In which case it could be the V-number-bigger-than-12 that might unite and provide both suspension and 100v speeds.

At least that was the narrative from about a year ago. Unless they decided to revise their original V12 plan/merge any part of it with their successes with the V11. Although I haven't seen anything from IM to indicate this (anything but the wishes of old men on internet forums).

As a potential customer I'm also rooting for the best of both worlds in their next wheel, but putting on a corporate hat, I'd be hard pressed not to sneak a page out of the Gotway model proliferation playbook here and milk parts from the V11 into an enhanced non-suspension model while working on the performance suspension model that is sure to come at some point. Unlike Gotway, they can fill out a category gap for themselves that is wide-open while avoiding/delaying cannibalization of sales of the V11.

I remember the first time I learned that when a new iPhone comes out, development for the next version(s) is at least well advanced (not to mention the evil practice of planned obsolecence). Following a brief period of outrage, indignation and online research of Samsung phones, I proceeded to order the new iPhone. The cognitive dissonance is real. 
 

Edited March 8, 2021 by FullTilt

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, AtlasP said:

3-12 moto tire size--isn't that the equivalent of 16x3? 

3.0 - 12 should actually translate into 16” x 3.3” or something along those lines. The direct replacement for the 18”x3” is after all a 2.75-14.

 But if this is indeed leaked to throw off the competition with false leaks, the V12 could end up turning out to be an extremely interesting wheel for me personally as well after all!

[Unventor]

On 3/8/2021 at 9:04 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

It is confirmed?

Depends how you look at it. Long time back like last year when V11 and it "brother" were to go live at jan2020 Las Vegas conference and then postponed we were told the delay was due to technical difficulties in production and mechanical and software. The result was to focus on V11 first and some things were given. But as time goes and more survey answered about customers wishes who know what IM decides to do. All that have access to some inside info is under nda. 

I anticipated we had seen launch event at this time, but so far nothing yet nor any date given except delivery is set at very late 1h2021 (so end of 2 quarter 2021, maybe a little earlier). 

All indications given so far I have only seen 16"x3+" given and a definite non-suspension model. Biggest battery yet from IM in any of their wheels. 

They said a Sherman contender then played doen the speed a little, but fastest IM wheel to date (at launch). Suggested AI fu ctiins (no clear info on purpose of the AI yet) and could have swappable battery is it was ready fir this model (very little info on how far they are on developing this yet). 

Headlight from V11 has been a "success" in terms of brightness so expect something similar to V11 maybe with a twist. 

I also think they will make it as weatherproof as they can, but nothing directly has been said in this. 

As for motor tech, this is the rubber band word I got: the V12 will use known/tested/"old school" design. I forgot the word used but it could be old axel design or hollowbore as V11 is first out on this from IM. 

So far I know the intention is to ship out V12 under nda to select testers/youtubers to collect feedback and then polish this to a 1st release. 

I am not one of the selected testers (atleast what I know of right now) despite I have helped Inmotion with beta testing V11 fw on 2 occasions now (one still ongoing). 

Sorry for a long answer, but confirmed I would only use this once we see 1st batch shipping out. Strong indication is what we have seen in Telegram and surveys so far. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Unventor
Spelling and typing fix (as usual)

[meepmeepmayer]

14 hours ago, AtlasP said:

before people started talking themselves in circles and losing track of what we do and don't know

You're so right there.

10 hours ago, mrelwood said:

3.0 - 12 should actually translate into 16” x 3.3” or something along those lines. The direct replacement for the 18”x3” is after all a 2.75-14.

That would be a nice new intermediate tire size! Maybe it's that!

[Matthieu Thegrey]

On 3/6/2021 at 1:10 AM, mrelwood said:

I understand why you don’t like the GW tilt-back. But none of things you mention make it unreliable in my books.

I don't agrre with that sentence. If a security feature is not obvious (you can't feel there is a tilt back) i think it's a dangerous, badly implemented safety feature. Safety is serious thing, i need to be aware. To make an image, it feels like tou have an indicator light green in a car, but the speed is limited because you have a problem. I prefer the red light (i'm not a child, i can decode that signal).

Edited March 9, 2021 by Matthieu Thegrey

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Matthieu Thegrey said:

I don't agrre with that sentence. If a security feature is not obvious (you can't feel there is a tilt back) i think it's a dangerous, badly implemented safety feature. Safety is serious thing, i need to be aware. To make an image, it feels like tou have an indicator light green in a car, but the speed is limited because you have a problem. I prefer the red light (i'm not a child, i can decode that signal).

And that’s cool, you don’t need to like it. I do.

I see the purpose of the tilt-back as preventing the rider to go faster. For me personally it was reliable in serving that purpose, reliably, every time.

[Seba]

On 3/7/2021 at 1:51 AM, gon2fast said:

InMotion - 

Pictures?

Actual Stats?

Size of wheel (16" or 18")?

Anything...

 

https://fccid.io/2ADUS-V12/User-Manual/15-V12-UserMan-US-5159274.pdf

[Silver]

2 minutes ago, Seba said:

https://fccid.io/2ADUS-V12/User-Manual/15-V12-UserMan-US-5159274.pdf

Wow that's quite the look, Not sure what I think of that design.

[Seba]

Just now, Silver said:

Wow that's quite the look, Not sure what I think of that design.

IMO looks ugly as hell, but specs are interesting

[Seba]

"Real" photos can be found here:

https://fccid.io/2ADUS-V12/External-Photos/08-V12-ExtPho-5159267.pdf

[Rich Sam]

6 minutes ago, Seba said:

IMO looks ugly as hell, but specs are interesting

Yes, maybe it's one of those looks that grows on you.  My initial reaction to it was not good.   to me, it draws lots of similarities to the Sherman in shape, except for the best parts like the roll cage.   Added lights, not a huge fan of accent lights.  drive train design looks solid though.

[Rich Sam]

5 minutes ago, Seba said:

"Real" photos can be found here:

https://fccid.io/2ADUS-V12/External-Photos/08-V12-ExtPho-5159267.pdf

Real photos I took to better than the manual pic.  I think mostly because the accent lights were off.  Tire looks extremely easy to access valve. 

[Scottie888]

I can live with the looks but I'm not sure there's anything new here. Its 29kg ie.~66lbs which is heavier than most for its ~1800wh. I'm assuming the topspeed of 70kph is no load spin which works out to 55kph real world, something that the V11 already does.

[Ádám Szitás]

Just now, Scottie888 said:

I can live with the looks but I'm not sure there's anything new here. Its 29kg ie.~66lbs which is heavier than most for its ~1800wh. I'm assuming the topspeed of 70kph is no load spin which works out to 55kph real world, something that the V11 already does.

it's "real" 70kph so in reality it will be 65, I knew it will be an improved inmotion nikola+, looks solid

[Rich Sam]

Anyone heard rumors of Pricing?