INMOTION V12 (pre-release)

[Rawnei]

6 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

Put this in perspective--in 2021 InMotion is making a 100v wheel that is speed competitive w/ the 100v MSX/MSP/RS/Nik+ etc. That's fast enough not just for the 90% or the 95%, but for the 99.[SomeOtherDigitsHere]%. And they're innovating on waterproofing at a time when Begode's reputation regarding waterproofing and safety is at an all-time low.

With the V8F/V10F series alone InMotion already owned over 60% of the market. Then with the introduction of the V11 that number had to be even higher. And now they target the only market segment of any notable size still remaining to them while the only player in that space is already in a death spiral.

Between Veteran capturing the highest-end minority, and InMotion encroaching on the mainstream 100v side, Begode continues to be squeezed out of existence/I just don't see how they will continue to compete.

Well I think it might be wise to wait with a verdict of the wheel until it's actually out and tested by the masses, I think people riding Begode/GW wheels will continue to do so and this wheel is not going to sway them.

But it is nice to see Inmotion moving into 100v territory.

[AtlasP]

On 3/16/2021 at 3:03 PM, jimjam.nyc said:

I know its a small segment of people.. but what about those who want 20, 22 and 24 inch wheels.. there are some out there who swear by the monsters and exn type wheels?

Is there a market for those things?--Sure/absolutely. But is it big enough to sustain them if they continue losing market share for their highest-selling products (which undoubtedly were the MSP/Nik+, and sure-as-hell not the Monster nor $3700 wheels)? I believe the most apt analogy is "Weekend at Burnie's"...

Edited March 21, 2021 by AtlasP

[Planemo]

32 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

For the board MOSFET cooling.

Agreed.

A water cooled system similar to PC's would be a start (a small radiator too wouldnt be difficult), let alone Tesla levels of coolant engineering.

A wheel should have sufficient heat managment so that it can be run flat out until the batts die or cant give enough current (overheat hill). A bit like every other vehicle in production.

If something burns out from something a rider can do in a single full charge then it aint been engineered properly.

I would wager even something extreme like a Bugatti Veyron could be held flat out for a full tank without breaking or overheating anything.

[Flying W]

If this wheel handles water well it's a big step in the right direction. I'm trying to move closer to work so I can commute again (great excuse for yet another wheel haha) and being able to do it in all weather would really help. 

I love my RS HT, it's a beast off road. I'm always worried about the bearings though. I'd keep it for off roading in the dry. So far the things I haven't made it up were do to losing traction, no soft pedals from over powering like I get on the mcm5, which also climbs very well. 

The RS also deals with heat very well on long sustained climbs, I guess that's what happens when the shell is made of swiss cheese haha.

If I can move and this wheel does well in the wild I think a V12 could very well be an awesome yr round commuter and wheel in general. 

[Tasku]

There was someone who pointed out being worried earlier, that how well the cooling is done and fearing how much it could limit the wheel. He was refering to the batteries being encased. 

The specs in manual said 35 degree hill climb ability. I was wondering about this, because I would assume 2500W motor should be able to handle 45 degree. This made me think of the saying "one step forward, 2 step backward". 

I would not be too surprised if it can actually handle the 45 degree briefly. Already imagining Marty taking the wheel to overheathill.. But I am very curious to hear what kind of solutions are used to maintain temperature. So far I figured temperature could be by design considered limiting factor, not something to alter in general by design.

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

A water cooled system similar to PC's would be a start

Water based cooling need to be replaced every 1-2years or bacteria what not will clutter it up. Non corrosive and non conducting water could be used.. I would rather see the leap taken into something better, by that I mean less maintenance needs.

1 hour ago, Flying W said:

If this wheel handles water

I watched some of the electronics involving speakers, bluetooth and such being atop of the wheel. The mainboard might be safer located but.. gotta wait and see. To seal the wheel entirely, would need to be something like encased cooling.

@houseofjobMentioned the liquid coolant goo. The parts that need cooling in tesla are combined same area by design. Performance of these wheels come down to the heat management. If it would be easy or cheapest way around, we would see it more. If product cannot handle the cooling or maintaining heat, it will become limiting factor.

Air as cooling solution also brings oxidizing and water, giving the product likely faster end date. That is what most products in this line has now - Air cooling. Encasing circuit boards and batteries in own compartments would give the better water protection rating.

It can be hard to maintain optimal operation temperatures.

Current battery tech (as example what is used in the wheels now li-on batteries) would need +10-45C operating range for ideal use case. 

Anyway I am getting side tracked, but would like to thank anyone throwing ideas about. When temperature solutions become better and more available, this line of tech should benefit of it.

I do hope this product pushes boundaries and innovates and can't wait what 2021 brings. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Tasku

[Rich Sam]

It's a shame the wheel had to get outed this way, InMotion obviously put some time into the design and I be they had big plans.  Though I love findings secerets!

[Planemo]

42 minutes ago, Tasku said:

Water based cooling need to be replaced every 1-2years

Please. Regular car coolant systems last for many years these days, under far more arduous conditions than an euc. Probably longer than the life of said euc. When we say 'water' we dont mean it literally.

[Flying W]

I hope the fun doesn't end at 50% under load. With a 4p pack the voltage drop is s lot on my RS. This V12 may not have the same torque though either since the stated speed is quite high for a 16in class wheel. 

Either way I'd like the speed to stay down to 30% under load of possible. Inmotion is normally conservative with this. 

[mike_bike_kite]

2 hours ago, Tasku said:

Water based cooling need to be replaced every 1-2years or bacteria what not will clutter it up.

I'm trying to think when I added water cooling to my PC. I think it must be about 7 years ago. It's still going fine so I don't think that would be an issue. Real issues might be weight - you have an additional pump and all the liquid plus you still need the fan to move the heat away. There's the extra complexity. There's also the risk of having liquid around delicate electronics and huge batteries. 

 

[conecones]

Thermoelectric cooling might be a worthwhile investment for this application. Small, no moving parts, super long service life. Cools when current flows one direction and heats when current is reversed. 

Anyone own a Koolatron cooler? I have one of these bad boys for over 10 years still works like the day I got it. USB coffee warmers use same tech.

Hell it can even use temperature differential to generate electricity :

https://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2009/ip_4.html
 

Integrate this into the heat sink and battery enclosure? Run it as cooler when temps go above 40, run as heater when it dips below 10, and generate additional electricity when temps are in between? 

Edited March 17, 2021 by conecones

[.....]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

Please. Regular car coolant systems last for many years these days, under far more arduous conditions than an euc. Probably longer than the life of said euc. When we say 'water' we dont mean it literally.

Liquid cooling in eucs is a terrible idea. Maybe in the VERY distant future. Cooling systems in automobiles helped pay my rent and afford me a LOT of tools and meals. Adding complexity to a device that is already made to large tolerances? We cant keep rain from getting in, but we're going to assume they can design a cooler to keep water in and near electronics?  I think we have enough problems. Properly air cooled and an owner with a basic grasp of limitations, seems a much more realistic idea. Temperature warning lights and gauges arent standard, just to waste money. If liquid cooled was something that worked w/o fail, those indicators wouldnt be neccessary. I would like to see some REAL temprature warning and safety measures in place on the euc, however.

Its also NOT uncommon for a car to cook itself into oblivion. Leave one idling in the hot sun with air conditioning on long enough.. I've seen more than one destroyed as such. Same wih air cooled engines. So expensive to try to make ANY device bulletproof. You give a moron a rubber mallet and he/she eventually destroy the Golden Gate bridge and somehow blame the architect....

I've learned to not get excited about new wheels much. Even more so, when a wheel isnt out yet. Such negativity I KNOW, but im so damn tired of having my realistic expectations crushed, then realizing the euc world is askew in its ratings of quality. My well of hope DID spring eternal, THEN I began buying euc's I'll wait until the v12 is out for a while, before I speculate ANYTHING about it.

Edited March 17, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Kekafuch]

3 hours ago, Rich Sam said:

It's a shame the wheel had to get outed this way, InMotion obviously put some time into the design and I be they had big plans.  Though I love findings secerets!

Outed? Look at the discussion and free publicity! This is the EUC world’s equivalent of “leaking” a sex tape! 

[Jon Stern]

16 hours ago, conecones said:

Thermoelectric cooling might be a worthwhile investment for this application. Small, no moving parts, super long service life. Cools when current flows one direction and heats when current is reversed. 

Anyone own a Koolatron cooler? I have one of these bad boys for over 10 years still works like the day I got it. USB coffee warmers use same tech.

Hell it can even use temperature differential to generate electricity :

https://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2009/ip_4.html
 

Integrate this into the heat sink and battery enclosure? Run it as cooler when temps go above 40, run as heater when it dips below 10, and generate additional electricity when temps are in between? 

TE (Pellier) coolers have very low efficiency. Typical modules are only around 5% efficient. That's okay for a desktop application plugged in to the grid, but not so good for battery powered systems.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Jon Stern

[gon2fast]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

an owner with a basic grasp of limitations

I almost fell out of my seat laughing... well stated my friend.

[Silver]

7 hours ago, Planemo said:

A bit like every other vehicle in production.

Maybe I'm wrong but, I don't think I could drive my car for 400miles straight while going over 120miles per hour without something breaking. 

[Flying W]

I'm sure the basic design is complete for the V12 so I'm just hoping that they put in line connectors for the hall sensor wires and motor cables so we don't need to unplug anything from the board to change the tire. 

I've never owned am inmotion wheel so maybe this is already common for them...I really wish gotway would do this too. My 16s has in line connectors. 

[Jon Stern]

1 hour ago, Silver said:

Maybe I'm wrong but, I don't think I could drive my car for 400miles straight while going over 120miles per hour without something breaking. 

Ah! A Cadillac driver then?

[mike_bike_kite]

Is cooling really that much of an issue? The KS18XL has everything encased within the wheel and no venting but can happily cruise along at just under 30mph. The Nikola 100v also doesn't have venting either but can reach 40mph. We don't hear about overheating issues there. I appreciate Marty manages to overheat many wheels but he rides up mountains, in the desert, in the summer - I think it's fair to expect a wheel to want to cut out (not break but just tilt back and cut out). Why not stay with the setup where the heat sink is properly connected to the mosfets and then have the fins of the sink on the inside of the wheel where it's cooled by the rotating wheel. It works, it's cheap and it's fairly reliable. Otherwise you end up with designs like the hollow motor bearing which fixes issues we didn't actually have, adds to the weight, adds to the cost and breaks down continually.

[meepmeepmayer]

The problem with cooling is extreme loads causing the mosfets to heat up extremely fast, so they fry before a temperature alarm can kick in. Would liquid cooling help there? Could it convect away such extreme short-term heat faster?

Anyways, the V12 has no liquid cooling which for now I see as a plus

[eucVibes]

 

[xiiijojjo]

8 hours ago, Kekafuch said:

Outed? Look at the discussion and free publicity! This is the EUC world’s equivalent of “leaking” a sex tape! 

I haven't noticed any notable activity in other brands' discussions on this forum so if nothing else they are getting exposure while the competition is not being talked about. Not only that i notable release like this is sure to start all kinds of processes in the other euc brands. 

I suspect a wheel from Kingsong could be leaked/announced soon as a response. I'd honestly be surprised if we saw any leak/announcement from Gotway in the near future and if we did i'm sure it'd just be them frantically reshuffling old parts in a new plastic body to try to compete over market share of the (in my opinion) mid tier euc market.

And know when i call this wheel a mid tier wheel it would of course be the king of the mid tier market with those stats (if they turn out to be true) or you can argue that it's the lowest end top tier wheel... It's al subjective.

[jimjam.nyc]

12 hours ago, Rich Sam said:

It's a shame the wheel had to get outed this way, InMotion obviously put some time into the design and I be they had big plans.  Though I love findings secerets!

If this wheel is looking to release for summer, now is probably the time to start talking about it. I am not entirely sure things getting found out like this is entirely by accident. Especially in technology type sectors. 

Most of these "leaks" are expected, if not kind of pushed along to get talks going.

Evx had that video ready to post pretty quickly. Which means they were pretty much ready to go.

Edited March 17, 2021 by jimjam.nyc

[Asphalt]

Driving Mode and Pedal Sensitivity

If Pedal Sensitivity is the same as Hard mode and Soft Mode, then I welcome the gradient selection. Looking forward to feeling how soft the extreme “Soft” can get.

Driving Mode - I can’t make out what the second and third options are, but if previous versions of the UI suggest anything, then it’s Commute and Off-road, although it’d be hilarious if it said   Feather and Whale. 😂

I’m impressed that InMotion is allowing for user-adjustable riding characteristics.

[AtlasP]

Lots of errors here. Here are a couple just from the last page.

On 3/16/2021 at 7:05 PM, Flying W said:

I hope the fun doesn't end at 50% under load. With a 4p pack the voltage drop is s lot on my RS. This V12 may not have the same torque though either since the stated speed is quite high for a 16in class wheel. 

Either way I'd like the speed to stay down to 30% under load of possible. Inmotion is normally conservative with this. 

InMotion already changed their ways on this with the V11 which guarantees top speed down to 30% battery. (Meanwhile King Song has gone the opposite direction, and while older versions of their wheels used to be able to go down to 30% battery, now all their wheels start throttling at 50%.) Couple that with InMotion releasing a 40+ mph wheel, and the "conservative InMotion" trope is seeming outdated fast.

Now I don't necessarily expect them to sustain 40+ mph down to 30% (probably not a good idea), but I imagine you'll see 40+ mph down to 50% and at least 30-something mph down to 30%--whether in pre-programmed chunks, or on a smooth curve similar to Begode's 80% limits.

On 3/17/2021 at 8:10 AM, Asphalt said:

Driving Mode and Pedal Sensitivity

If Pedal Sensitivity is the same as Hard mode and Soft Mode, then I welcome the gradient selection. Looking forward to feeling how soft the extreme “Soft” can get.

Driving Mode - I can’t make out what the second and third options are, but if previous versions of the UI suggest anything, then it’s Commute and Off-road, although it’d be hilarious if it said   Feather and Whale. 😂

I’m impressed that InMotion is allowing for user-adjustable riding characteristics.

Such user-adjustable riding characteristics, including the gradient selection for pedal hardness, have been in newer InMo wheels through the InMo app for years (at least V10[F] and V11, although not all options are in the older V8 or V5[F]--not sure about the V8F). There's nothing new there. (The joys of having so many people here who don't actually own/ride contemporary InMo wheels commenting on new InMo releases like they know what they're talking about....)

Edited March 21, 2021 by AtlasP

[xiiijojjo]

1 hour ago, AtlasP said:

Now I don't necessarily expect them to sustain 40+ mph down to 30% (probably not a good idea), but I imagine you'll see 40+ mph down to 50% and at least 30-something mph down to 30%.

My opinion about top speed in eucs in general and more specifically in regards to the V12

Sorry i still have not learned how to quote posts from other threads or rather post links to other threads 

To add to that, top speed is constantly throttling. You won't go as fast at 90% battery as you will on 100% and that trend is exponential. I don't even want to ride my RS at lower than 50% battery because i value top speed so much. Now i know i can still get a lot of range out of it but i'm simply not interested in riding at those low speeds or long ranges. 

My Msuper v3 and Tesla v1 did not throttle to the same extreme degree the RS does and sure it may be for safety purposes but as a result i already think about getting a 3200-3600Wh battery in my next wheel not for max range as i rarely ride more than 20km in a row but for prolonged max-ish speed.

The single thing holding me back from 20km+ trips is the fact that those 20km cannot all be travelled at max-ish speed as max speed rapidly throttles. So in a 20km trip i end up having fun the first 5-10km and just wanting to get home for the last 10km.

Edited March 17, 2021 by xiiijojjo