INMOTION V12 (pre-release)

[GoGeorgeGo]

3 minutes ago, /Dev/Null said:

Yeah but we comparing new to new.  A car has way more maintenance items and can't be parked in a small space..  It's not comparable.  

Besides the comparison earlier in the discussion was a euc to a "one wheeled motorcycle" hence I"m comparing it to an actual motorcycle.   As it gets bigger, heavier, and less portable there will be less & less people interested in it.

At the same price, it's going to:

- take longer to charge

- have less range

- have less stability

- cost the same or more.

It's a losing battle and you know it.

I disagree, if you where only buying the device based on specs why wouldnt you buy a scooter or an ebike right now? 

The heavy wheels are incredibly stable, the batteries are the same tech and will charge at the same rate. And why would the price for two tires a larger frame and stronger motors be cheaper than an EUC? The firmware cost is going to be offset by the extra material costs the bike requires. 

Plus a motorcycle needs to be registered and insured while a EUC does not , now i do expect that to change so i have left that put of the discussion but its still a valid reason to buy one currently 

[.....]

37 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

I disagree, if you where only buying the device based on specs why wouldnt you buy a scooter or an ebike right now? 

The heavy wheels are incredibly stable, the batteries are the same tech and will charge at the same rate. And why would the price for two tires a larger frame and stronger motors be cheaper than an EUC? The firmware cost is going to be offset by the extra material costs the bike requires. 

Plus a motorcycle needs to be registered and insured while a EUC does not , now i do expect that to change so i have left that put of the discussion but its still a valid reason to buy one currently 

Boom goes the dynamite. Get em now, enjoy while you can, inevitable is coming. Impending legislation IS the reason to buy em now. I think we are all forgetting to mention the stat of FUN PER MILE. Even in a work situation, doesnt this add into the equation? If we add FPM, the euc wins by a long shot

[MR BRAD]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

If we add FPM, the euc wins by a long shot

Ok. Don’t hate me, but as someone who gets paid to ride a motorcycle, I don’t think there is anything that beats the FPM of a motor. I’ll give you a “close second” on the wheel though. 
 

And @Stumpy... yes! That was the picture!!!!! I would love to see IM make a better mousetrap, er, Sherman and build it to look akin to this eye candy. Just add hex pedals and lose the suspension and I’ll be waiting in line! (And I know the suspension dis is heresy to some of you... sorry but I also like motorcycles better so you can hate me for that too!)

[gon2fast]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Get em now, enjoy while you can,

Yes Sir, that is why I got a Sherman as fast as I could!

Now if someone did custom control boards/firmware then the authorities/vendors can eat it.

Hell, I want a complete after market build EUC to my liking (roll bar; big ole axle; hardened shell, HT motor, weatherproofing on all components, easy swap case, accessible tube valve, adjustable pedals; etc.) 

I guess I am starting to come to the realization that we are only going to get what we want at a reasonable price if we build it ourselves. The markup on the EUCs is criminal.

 

POST OFFICIALLY DERAILED LOL

[Silver]

2 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Plus a motorcycle needs to be registered and insured while a EUC does not , now i do expect that to change so i have left that put of the discussion but its still a valid reason to buy one currently 

I feel like this is the real reason you want this theoretical wheel, but by the time this wheel you are asking for comes out there is no way that you won't need to register it. Currently an EUC is in the same league as a moped and is pretty easy to be overlook by the law, there are laws about mopeds but people ride them around my college town without registration and the cops don't stop most of them. That will not be the case if you are going 70 down the highway (I wish it could be though.)

[Silver]

5 minutes ago, gon2fast said:

POST OFFICIALLY DERAILED LOL

Of course it was, when you have something like "What would you like to see in an upcoming wheel?" it always turns into "I want it to be 5lbs, go 100mph, and make all my dreams come true"

[GoGeorgeGo]

11 minutes ago, Silver said:

I feel like this is the real reason you want this theoretical wheel, but by the time this wheel you are asking for comes out there is no way that you won't need to register it. Currently an EUC is in the same league as a moped and is pretty easy to be overlook by the law, there are laws about mopeds but people ride them around my college town without registration and the cops don't stop most of them. That will not be the case if you are going 70 down the highway (I wish it could be though.)

I would much rather pay a small insurance and registration fee to freely ride around without fear of confiscation or harrassment. 

I actually believe we as a community need to get ahead of the law and push for legalization before they are just outright banned. It will be a much harder fight to reverse a ban than it will be to instate proper legislation.

Is it really that hard to believe that i want unicycle with the performance of a motorcycle? Watching people rip shermans through the city makes me think im not the only one interested in higher quality beefier wheels. 

Keep in mind we are also heading fast and furious towards a future without gasoline engines. California is set to be completely off gasoline cars by 2030. 

Again i do not expect this future wheel to suddenly appear tommorow. But i do think that is the path we are heading towards.  Im suprised how much pushback the notion gets, to me its the obvious progression of the device. Last mile commuters and sidewalk cruisers are a niche industry compared with personal transportation devices. And if the main limitations are weight and price? We live in the technological age, everything gets smaller and cheaper exponentially with time. Its not like we are 50 years into the development cycles either, wheels are literally rendered obsolete by new releases every 6 months it seems.  The first 30 mph wheel was released in 2018. I just cant imagine we are even touching the edges of a maximized device 

[gon2fast]

Just now, GoGeorgeGo said:

I would much rather pay a small insurance and registration fee to freely ride around without fear of confiscation or harrassment. 

Liability insurance would help our cause, but also could cause damage if non riders focus on the extremes. 

In reality though, striking a pedestrian or causing a fire could turn into a financial nightmare in my parts.

 

[.....]

Its not so easy as paying a simple registration and insurance fee. For a vehicle to become insurable and treated as a motor vehicle, it has to pass standards. Standards for lighting, signaling, braking, power, emissions etc... None of these things comes cheap or easily. Hell, if we uphold these euc companies to even BS standards, they fail. Could you imagine the cost and amount of companies dropping like flies, if they had to meet road standards? Embracing legislation is not going to 'head it off at the pass', it will merely end our reign of freedom and fun much more quickly. You give an inch, they take a mile. I will try to avoid the inevitable and enjoy the grey areas until I am stopped from doing so. I will not embrace the end of my current freedoms, even tho I know its merely granted because of being overlooked. Are we going to limt the euc to 18 year olds and have a licensing strategy? Everything comes with compromises, and the current state of euc affairs in MY AREA are just fine. Im selfish and I really dont care much past what directly effects me.  I would much rather spend my effort hoping the next euc is an awesome wheel, than attempt to mitigate the damages that legislation will inevitably cause. So far, Im not seeing much favorable law making happening in other parts of the world. Given the choice, I'll take the niche' and grey area of my local area, everytime. Tbh, i could care less about law and more about enforcement anyhow. catch me if you can and when you let me go, we do it all again...

derail train still rolling.... I think its gna take inmotion giving us some more cookie crumbs to get us back to the station...

Edited February 28, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Silver]

10 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Is it really that hard to believe that i want unicycle with the performance of a motorcycle?

I find it hard to believe you think Inmotion would pioneer such a thing. If this was a thread about Veterans next wheel I might understand but Inmotion has shown they aren't going to be the ones pushing the boundary when it comes to speed they provide improvements in other areas and just tag along just close enough in speed not to be left behind. Maybe if Gotway or Veteran make a big break through in speed Inmostion will follow after but they arn't going to unless it's proven first.

[Silver]

7 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

derail train still rolling.... I think its gna take inmotion giving us some more cookie crumbs to get us back to the station...

Ha, yeah from every youtuber they have under NDA it sounds like they have more information they could give us.

[GoGeorgeGo]

36 minutes ago, Silver said:

I find it hard to believe you think Inmotion would pioneer such a thing. If this was a thread about Veterans next wheel I might understand but Inmotion has shown they aren't going to be the ones pushing the boundary when it comes to speed they provide improvements in other areas and just tag along just close enough in speed not to be left behind. Maybe if Gotway or Veteran make a big break through in speed Inmostion will follow after but they arn't going to unless it's proven first.

All i expected from the v12 is a large battery. The conversation turned into the future of wheels not current expectations of wheels. 

I thought it was an interesting conversation though, glad to hear others viewpoints! 

[Tasku]

1 hour ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

I actually believe we as a community need to get ahead of the law and push for legalization before they are just outright banned. It will be a much harder fight to reverse a ban than it will be to instate proper legislation.

If there is anything to pick up from this conversation it is this: We need unified voice before we get banned. Disagree all you want (in the details) but do part take on the legality actions for EUCs. In europe German and Netherlands  already jumped in ban wagon. The lobbying force and public image of danger won. The average user had no voice in the conversation. Nor did the safety and statistic matter. The legal action we took to change the EU law barely got enough names on it.

Our brothers In RC and drones are all watching as their hobby is being crushed. In Finland the lobbying are so crazy that ONLY one brand meets the standard they want to push in as legal. DJI would be the only brand that you can fly legally.

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Its not so easy as paying a simple registration and insurance fee. For a vehicle to become insurable and treated as a motor vehicle, it has to pass standards. Standards for lighting, signaling, braking, power, emissions etc... None of these things comes cheap or easily. Hell, if we uphold these euc companies to even BS standards, they fail.

Or divided we just might all fall. Drivers licence of any caliber could be requirement to prove the person is aware of road rules. Pretty much the only thing I would agree to at this time. Also having if we could get insurance and our vehicles are road legal that sounds great. 

Would suck to get hit by car. But imagine he running you over on purpose and you having to pay for his damage. Only because he argues in court your vehicle is not road legal nor insured for road use. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Tasku

[Unventor]

11 hours ago, Scottie888 said:

I could be wrong but based on my interpretation of posts here, most complaints are for want of a better finished product. The rest seems to be just idle chatter. Am I far fetched in my thinking?

I don't think you are wrong. But on the other hard I don't think this is easy to solve.

Early EUCs didn't need massive shells that could handle that big an impact, they were lighter and couldn't go as fast, then better wheels came. One of the better ones of its time yet a "tiny" wheel is the V8. it could take a fair beating yet still light. 

People asked for more speed and range, and it is fairy simple to slap on a bigger battery and make motor more powerful (at least to some extend).

And that has been GW (or what they call them self these days) trademark. So people bought these for that purpose range and speed, as long thy were cheep enough. What we are starting to see now is we reached the practical limit (I call it that and some will properly not agree, but anyway). By thing I mean speed for most people is as high as they would go most case (30-50kmh is city speed limits in most EU cities). The range is not so much a limit anymore (again for most people I am thinking 1500-2000Wh). 

To increase range further right now, means more weight, same for speed. But having a rouge wheel doing EUC ballet doing the street at 40-60 kmh because someone got a cutout or someone didn't plan ahead and foreseen traffic situation (goes for all, rider, pedestrians, cars and so on) means a huge force is on the loose. So not only is it battery and motor that needs attention now. It is also shell design. 

So to keep up with business the now is where we start to see how innovation and strong each brand has become. It takes something special to be the one customer buy this year. Last year suspension was introduced. You could see brands fighting for the attention. For some thing had been developed over long time others maybe not so much. Yet despite long time development unforeseen technical problems has occurred. But despite 6+ months further delay from IM it didn't solve what have now become know as the bearing problem. Work is ongoing to mitigate this (I know of some way they are doing this, that is as I understand it in last part of long term testing, no date yet when this is done or if it finally works). 

So the V12? Those that only keep asking for speed and battery ? They are likely to be disappointed as the Sherman is right not top dog in this regard. So who will buy the V12? Looking at IM they have one of the best selling wheels of all time, the V8. But it is hopeless outdated now. They helped grow the community , but their eco system (next gen wheel) did't have what people were missing (range and speed and by that better safety margin for cut-outs). So part of that was the job of the v11.

But people asked for more battery still and speed, because that is what they knew, suspension not so much. So that is the job of the V12. But here comes the problem. If you re not top dog you need to do something else. Innovation takes time, so to develop a stronger structure, have "enough" range and speed to be considered and at a competitive price range is not easy. Especially if you are competing with a company that do not consider quality priority. 

IMO problems with a wheel can come from 3 things, quality, wrong design.or innovative boldness. 

The V11 suffer mostly from the last, innovative boldness. Yes there have been issues with assembly too but mostly it is the bearing problem we seen most impact of. 

I know IM have taken new steps to make sure the V12 will not have these problems. One thing I do know is the V12 has no suspension. So due to that I am not really that interested in the V12 as to buy it. I am very interested to see what other directions IM are taking with the V12. I do also know that suspension is not given up on from IM side. So I am very keen on what their next-next wheel will bring. 

Now I am what some call a fanboy of IM. But I think of it more like I got lucky, that a brand decided to listen to their market and the direction they have taken  and how they are going on about it is what I think is the best move. So due to that I think IM are the best brand to deliver something better and interesting now and down the road where we are talking a good balance between price vs speed that is useful vs range that is practical.  

 

 

[jimjam.nyc]

I am not sure what the point of a "highway" ready euc is. If you have need for that kind of riding, an euc I feel like just wouldn't be anywhere near as practical as a car or motorbike, etc.

You want street legal, that is a different story.. but it just doesn't seem fun at all to me to go much faster than mid 40mph for extended period of times... take into account shifting winds from other cars and trucks traveling at speed, and road conditions. It just doesn't make much sense to me. 

I do hope manufacturers start thinking of making eucs a bit more street legal, but I believe there is alot involved.. including but not limited to accurate instrumentation, lights etc..

Back on topic.. whatever v12 is I hope there is an info dump soon. I'm looking for a new wheel and am kind of holding out to see what this is!

[UniVehje]

The discussion seems to range from Americans riding on roads together with cars and wanting faster wheels to Europeans riding in bike lanes wanting more reliability and quality. This is a very broad generalisation of course. 

As a European rider I don't understand the need for ever higher top speeds. These devices are in the e-bike category (max 25 km/h officially) in legislation and in our use and even the moped category (needs to be registered and insured and not allowed in every bike path) is limited EU wide to 45 km/h (28 mph). Faster than that and we are talking about motorcycle category, which is allowed only on roads with cars and there is no way one wheeled devices without mechanical brakes would ever be allowed there at those speeds. 

I totally understand the need to keep up with traffic for Americans. But over here we mainly ride on bike paths that are narrow and shared with pedestrians and cyclists. More speed is just not needed. Comparing the V12 to the Sherman is missing the point for me. There must be other ways to compare wheels than just range and speed. I want a bigger battery for sure, but 1850-2200 Wh is the sweet spot for me and I  do a lot of long distance riding. 3200-3800 Wh batteries are probably needed for some people but that should not be the bench mark to compare. Those wheels are just too heavy for most riders. 

For these reasons I was really hoping for just a V11 with a bigger battery (1850 or 2200 Wh). The leaked specs of the V12 do not yet make me want to give up suspension. The battery is bigger but that's it. I will have to see if there are anything else interesting. 

Interesting discussion about quality parts and warranty times. I'm one of those who is definitely looking for better quality and nice features in the future. I would like these wheels to be serious vehicles that can be ridden in rain and are reliable. Easy tire change and maintenance, good lights, comfortable ride, optional seat etc. I feel like we have already have enough speed, power and range. Let's ask for something else next. These things WILL be regulated at some point. 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

53 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

As a European rider I don't understand the need for ever higher top speeds.

What?
All my chases with the police on my 16X were not so funny with just 45-48 km/h (close to a faceplant due to cut-off) on a road where cars can also drive and the next narrow escape route is still several kilometers away, even if I have been successful except for once.
Police on e-bikes can also reach up to 45km/h and then even an escape through the forest is almost impossible on a Kingsong or Inmotion Wheel.

My desire for more speed is based predominantly for this application!
(regardless of the fact that 50 km/h is not always enough for me to have lot of fun )

 

[PLEASE_DELETE]

10 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

I disagree, if you where only buying the device based on specs why wouldnt you buy a scooter or an ebike right now? 

The heavy wheels are incredibly stable, the batteries are the same tech and will charge at the same rate. And why would the price for two tires a larger frame and stronger motors be cheaper than an EUC? The firmware cost is going to be offset by the extra material costs the bike requires. 

Plus a motorcycle needs to be registered and insured while a EUC does not , now i do expect that to change so i have left that put of the discussion but its still a valid reason to buy one currently 

I give up on you bro.  Stll moving the goal posts.  The dicussion was about treating an EUC like motorcycle. It can park in small spots like a motorcycle and that is about it.  $ for $ it is the losing solution compared to a motorcyle AS YOU TRY TO MAKE IT AS BIG AS A MOTORCYCLE.  As long as it's smaller & more nimble & you can carry it on a train or s bus, or stick it under your seat, it has more uses.

Now you brought in bicycles after bringing in casrs  & I'm sure you'll move onto drones carrying us next.  I'm out.  I"m not repeating myself because you'll move the goalposts agian.  Thanks for playing.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

On 2/23/2021 at 4:57 AM, Chronic said:

The battery capacity is 24S4P 20Ah(1750Wh). This is a pack of LG M50T or SAMSUNG 50E cells.

okay, then I'm out 

 

On 2/24/2021 at 2:44 PM, Jonny727272 said:

I know he is just a YouTuber, but he is one of the bigger EUC ones who does get wheels to test and review before they release. And from the comments, he states that he has it and is testing it, he just can't make any videos yet or give out any details. He said he would put out a video when he could.

One of the biggest youtubers?

More like one of the biggest bullshitters with zero clue who would sell his grandmother for a discount at the Wheel and tells all YouTube followers what brings him the most money.

Oh man, am I the only one here who can't hear all this crap anymore?

He probably bugged Inmotion just as long until they sent him a V12 for self-promotion, just like he did with KS with the 16X. First everything was great and when he didn't get more perks, suddenly the 16X was just as crappy as the Kingsong company itself.

[Jonny727272]

21 minutes ago, EUC Custom Power-Pads said:

One of the biggest youtubers?

More like one of the biggest bullshitters with zero clue who would sell his grandmother for a discount at the Wheel and tells all YouTube followers what brings him the most money

Definitely not biggest, I said bigger. He has a couple thousand subs and good production value, relative to other channels. 

But I do agree he sells his soul for discount codes and kickbacks. Super annoying to be watching his videos and have a pop up every 2 min talking about 5% off somewhere. 

 

[GoGeorgeGo]

2 hours ago, /Dev/Null said:

I give up on you bro.  Stll moving the goal posts.  The dicussion was about treating an EUC like motorcycle. It can park in small spots like a motorcycle and that is about it.  $ for $ it is the losing solution compared to a motorcyle AS YOU TRY TO MAKE IT AS BIG AS A MOTORCYCLE.  As long as it's smaller & more nimble & you can carry it on a train or s bus, or stick it under your seat, it has more uses.

Now you brought in bicycles after bringing in casrs  & I'm sure you'll move onto drones carrying us next.  I'm out.  I"m not repeating myself because you'll move the goalposts agian.  Thanks for playing.

Just having a conversation mate. It's clear you disagree with my thoughts , thats perfectly fine. Not really sure what goalposts you are talking about. We do not have to come to an agreement, neither of us can see the future, and a little discourse is healthy. No reason to "give up on you bro".  We can simply agree to disagree lol. No one wants an EUC the size of a motorcycle, we clearly have a disconnect in what we are talking about. I simply believe we are not close to the peak of these machines, if you think they are nearly maximized, then maybe they are. Only time will tell.

I enjoyed the conversation, sorry if it left you frustrated. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by GoGeorgeGo

[mhpr262]

I see a lot of potential for further development still, even with current technology. The new Tesla 4680 batteries with their tabless design ought to be able to sustain much higher burst discharges and for longer than even 6p 21700 or 18650 cells, even if they "only" deliver continuous power comparable to that.

There is a lot of potential in new electric motors too - just look at what is possible with the new axial flux type motors. There doesnt even exist an outrunner variant of that type of motor yet, although it could built! 

In the R/C flight community brushless motors that have copper coils without an iron core and that are much lighter and more efficient than standard motors have been a thing for years (the Kontronik Tango motors for instance).

Combine those technologies (and there is no reason why that wouldnt be possible) and we could have electric motors that are twice as powerful and only two thirds as heavy as the ones we have now.

The whole possibility of true parallel wired, optional external backpack batteries has remained totally unexplored so far, too.

I also want a power sink like an external resistor wire into which power can be dumped for when I need to go downhill on a 100% charged battery.

Edited February 28, 2021 by mhpr262

[Tasku]

12 minutes ago, mhpr262 said:

axial flux type motors

Yes! Maintenance free. Iron is gone so.. it is light weight. Best efficiency money can get for electric motor? You get further with less loss.  Thanks for reminding

[mike_bike_kite]

3 hours ago, EUC Custom Power-Pads said:

One of the biggest youtubers?

More like one of the biggest bullshitters with zero clue who would sell his grandmother for a discount at the Wheel and tells all YouTube followers what brings him the most money.

Oh man, am I the only one here who can't hear all this crap anymore?

This was a little bit like a Sun afternoon quiz trying to guess who you guys were talking about. I could only think of one person like that ... and I was bang on the money!

[Stumpy]

15 hours ago, /Dev/Null said:

Yeah but we comparing new to new.  A car has way more maintenance items and can't be parked in a small space..  It's not comparable.  

Besides the comparison earlier in the discussion was a euc to a "one wheeled motorcycle" hence I"m comparing it to an actual motorcycle.   As it gets bigger, heavier, and less portable there will be less & less people interested in it.

At the same price, it's going to:

- take longer to charge

- have less range

- have less stability

- cost the same or more.

It's a losing battle and you know it. 

Let's imagine a sherman 2 with 150 mile range, weighs 150 pounds & can max go 70mph, and costs $5k.  At 70mph say the range falls to 100 miles.  Why would I buy this over a ninja 400 at $4,599 (MSRP and street is going to be less)?  Where is it going to practically go that a motorcycle can't?  Can you lift it up stairs?  Maybe if you are super strong.  Maybe you can trolley it to an elevator & your desk?  MAYBE.  How do I get it up the front stairs to my house or apartment?  How do I quick fill it like a motorcycle so I can take off again?  Can I take it on the highway?  Nope, still gotta use the slow roads where I don't have to use that with my motorcycle.  It's simply a losing propostion in most cases compared to an actual motorcycle.

 

 I completely agree with you