INMOTION V12 (pre-release)

[conecones]

2 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I do know what I want - a wheel that's capable of 30mph even though I'll normally ride slower, a wheel that's easy to trolley around when I'm out shopping and one that I can actually pick up without pulling my back. It also has to be rugged with decent lighting front and back. Sadly no manufacturer seems to produce it which is a shame as it seems a fairly "standard" need.

I think what you’re asking for is actually not that common. I use a V8 for shopping and with 30lbs of groceries on my back, its unsafe and unnecessary to go on the road for such a short trip so it’s mostly on sidewalks where it’s best to stay under 25km/h or so or everyone’s safety.
Also you want light but also extra speed overhead so that’s limited by technology right now, not because manufacturers aren’t trying. 
FYI, the V8 size is perfect, fits inside a standard shopping cart along with a 16”x16” ubereats insulated bag. The Nikola is manageable if I go to Costco only because their carts are comically big. 

[Silver]

3 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I do know what I want - a wheel that's capable of 30mph even though I'll normally ride slower, a wheel that's easy to trolley around when I'm out shopping and one that I can actually pick up without pulling my back. It also has to be rugged with decent lighting front and back. Sadly no manufacturer seems to produce it which is a shame as it seems a fairly "standard" need.

It sounds like you need to just get the KS 16X then and just to be willing to ride slower (ironically since you have such a problem with the top speed of the v12)

[AtlasP]

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

There's really no point in building a slow wheel. See the V12's top speed as a welcome side effect of its 100V design. Higher voltages have pretty much no real downside (regarding performance), so 100V isn't necessarily just for speed. It's simply better and a natural next step, and you happen to get a higher top speed, too (or you could have better low-end torque with no top speed loss compared to 84V).

The V12's high top speed is there with no downside/tradeoff. It's fast, how nice - so what?

It's been said that the 100v wheels are less power efficient at lower speeds and more power efficient at higher speeds. No idea if true.

[MR BRAD]

2 hours ago, conecones said:
FYI, the V8 size is perfect, fits inside a standard shopping cart along with a 16”x16” ubereats insulated bag. The Nikola is manageable if I go to Costco only because their carts are comically big. 

Or move to the States... our shopping carts are all large (maybe not “Costco” large), but ‘nuff for your Nik methinks. Perhaps it’s because we eat too much

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

This is a straightforward, categorical jump in power going from 84v to 100v, with a correspondingly straightforward, expected jump in performance characteristics.

You missed the tire diameter though. The V11 is an 18” wheel, V12 is a 16”. Making a V11 into a 100V 16” wheel, the directly calculated top speed would be 58km/h. Making a V10F into a 100V wheel makes 47km/h. To have the V12 go 70km/h requires several other changes as well.

 

19 hours ago, Halig said:

I am curious about how they are going to solve the problem of the new mandatory CE marking in the European Union.

Theoretically, this year it has to be implemented in all EU countries and no EUC (no PLEV in general) can be manufactured, sold or used on public roads that does not comply with that EN17128:2020 standard. That standard lines the speed to 25 km / h, acceleration (not power) and many other construction and safety specifications.

The current mandatory CE marking is the same as that of an iron or a vacuum cleaner (basic electrical issue). In the new CE, the speed limitation will have to be "fixed" constructive by design; an app or buttons that the user can change is not worth it.

I haven’t checked, but I’d be very surprised if the CE marking is connected to the new PLEV standards or laws. Electrical safety and complying to local laws have so far been completely separate aspects. I need to check what’s up though, as I haven’t been following it that closely.

 

Quote

there are objective reasons all the 84v wheels top out around 31mph/~maybe a bit more

The age old 84V MSX has the 80% beeps programmed in at 36mph (100% battery), and has no problem reaching 40mph.

 

7 hours ago, Waulnut said:

This is the reason why I went with the RS from a ks18xl. I wanted to safely cruise high 20s knowing I got a decent buffer speed zone. 

It's not all about the top end riding the beeps, but the safe buffer zone. 

Comparing the top speeds this way paint an understandable but a rather misleading picture. You are comparing the top speed of a EUC limited by software to an EUC with no top speed limit.

 EUCs that have a top speed limited by software, do so in order to force enough speed buffer, and as such varies between each wheel model. The 16X for example doesn't even have enough buffer at it's top speed, while the 18XL definitely seems to. “Top speed of a GW” is an irrelevant number without also determining the amount of buffer one is taking into account.

 While the no load speed is not at all a straightforward comparison either, it might be closer to reality in this case. The V11 is a 50/55 km/h wheel. 84V MSX is clearly faster, as it is not limited by software. If you think that the MSX is much safer for riding at 45km/h, I think you may be mistaken. The no-load speeds are pretty identical.

 To achieve a software limited top speed of 70km/h requires a no-load speed of at least 90km/h, and being Inmotion, my guess is somewhere between 100 and 110 km/h.

Edited March 22, 2021 by mrelwood

[Silver]

26 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

while the 18XL definitely seems to. “Top speed of a GW” is an irrelevant number without also determining the amount of buffer one is taking into account.

 While the no load speed is not at all a straightforward comparison either, it might be closer to reality in this case. The V11 is a 50/55 km/h wheel. 84V MSX is clearly faster, as it is not limited by software. If you think that the MSX is much safer for riding at 45km/h, I think you may be mistaken. The no-load speeds are pretty identical.

Gotway might not list a top speed with a buffer or program one in but Ewheels list the 84v MSX top speed at 35mph (58km/h) the same (more or less) as the the V11 so I think most people understand they have to add buffer for gotway wheels if they want to compare them. I don't know what the no-load speed of the KS18XL is but I'm going to wager it's probably lower then the 97km/h no-load speed of the RS so I would say his reasoning still stands even though you can't compare the top speed of a EUC limited by software to an EUC with no top speed limit like you say.

46 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 To achieve a software limited top speed of 70km/h requires a no-load speed of at least 90km/h, and being Inmotion, my guess is somewhere between 100 and 110 km/h.

110km/h would mean that it would be a faster no-load speed then the Veteran Sherman. That would be quite impressive. 

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Silver said:

Ewheels list the 84v MSX top speed at 35mph (58km/h)

Makes sense, as it’s the top no-beep speed.

2 hours ago, Silver said:

I don't know what the no-load speed of the KS18XL is but I'm going to wager it's probably lower then the 97km/h no-load speed of the RS so I would say his reasoning still stands

I’d say that the reasoning is faulty, but the end result (in this exact comparison) serves the purpose. Because the mentioned reasoning would also pick a Msuper V3S+T over the 18XL because of the “safety buffer”, which would’ve simply been a wrong choice.

2 hours ago, Silver said:

110km/h would mean that it would be a faster no-load speed then the Veteran Sherman. That would be quite impressive. 

Good point. I’ll have to deflate my guess a bit, down to 94-102km/h.

[WI_Hedgehog]

Being able to set your own safeties (like Gotway allowed) is important. The max speed limit for a thin guy living in a mostly flat area is far different than for a roundie living in a hilly area like San Francisco. One size does not fit all, and EUC manufacturers would do well to realize that.

Of course that would imply adding some actual documentation to the box or on a website so people had an idea of what limits to set, something most EUC manufacturers have so far left to the unsuspecting owner....eh, no need to do that, just add a menu option to the firmware, set the default to something for tubbies in hilly country and let the more adventurous people figure it out....

Edited March 22, 2021 by WI_Hedgehog

[jimjam.nyc]

1 hour ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

Being able to set your own safeties (like Gotway allowed) is important. The max speed limit for a thin guy living in a mostly flat area is far different than for a roundie living in a hilly area like San Francisco. One size does not fit all, and EUC manufacturers would do well to realize that.

Of course that would imply adding some actual documentation to the box or a website so people had an idea of what limits to set, something most EUC manufacturers have left to the unsuspecting owner. Eh, no need to do that, just add a menu option to the firmware, set the default to something for tubbies in hilly country and let people figure it out....

I actually think this may be a good idea. At least have a user profile or riding profile option that has a spot for riding weight. If the software is good enough it should be able to at least recommend a suggested safety limit. with a little "change at own risk don't sue us" disclaimer.  

[meepmeepmayer]

9 hours ago, AtlasP said:

It's been said that the 100v wheels are less power efficient at lower speeds and more power efficient at higher speeds. No idea if true.

There were reports (from the NYC guys) that they are definitely more efficient at high speeds. While in theory they may be less efficient at (really) low speeds, I haven't heard anything there. But of course, who would even notice

100V is better and I'm glad Inmotion is going that way. There's no real reason not to do it.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

Being able to set your own safeties (like Gotway allowed) is important. The max speed limit for a thin guy living in a mostly flat area is far different than for a roundie living in a hilly area like San Francisco.

Rider weight is one thing, but the riding style is another, maybe even a more important one.

What GW still hasn’t truly realized is that the speed limit for a full battery should be vastly different than for 30% battery. That’s why setting a top speed on a GW is a far cry from an actual safety feature.

 If they would allow to set a percentage for the allowed speed (for example 80%) out of the max no-load speed, which would automatically decrease as the battery depletes, then I would call it an actual safety feature. And if it wouldn’t allow values higher than 90%, it would even be a pretty good safety feature.

Edited March 22, 2021 by mrelwood

[Kai Drange]

15 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The V12's high top speed is there with no downside/tradeoff.

Losing my driver's licence or going to jail(?) because of a max speed I will never want or use is a pretty big downside to me! I don't know how it is in the rest of the world, but where I live, if pulled over, the listed max speed is what matters, not what speed I was actually riding it at.

I'll gladly pay for a powerful wheel for safety reasons, but I will never buy one with a listed max speed anywhere close to what the V12 has.

[PLEASE_DELETE]

6 minutes ago, Kai Drange said:

Losing my driver's licence or going to jail(?) because of a max speed I will never want or use is a pretty big downside to me! I don't know how it is in the rest of the world, but where I live, if pulled over, the listed max speed is what matters, not what speed I was actually riding it at.

I'll gladly pay for a powerful wheel for safety reasons, but I will never buy one with a listed max speed anywhere close to what the V12 has.

Is it ths same for cars?

The fastest legal speed in my state is 70mph = 112km/h but my car (stock) can do 240km/h.  You aren't in violation unless the you are actually exceeing 70mph.  Likewise my motorcle hits about 100km/h in 1st gear.  I often drive around the highways in Chicago where the max limit is 88km/h

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by /Dev/Null

[null]

5 minutes ago, /Dev/Null said:

Is it ths same for cars?

No, PEVs are singled out because.
In Norway the max device limit is 20Km/h, which is downright dangerous in any traffic setting IMO.

As for @Kai Drange: AFAIK there is no nuances above 20Km/h +10% margin, 25Km/h is as illegal as 200.. (correct me if I'm wrong..)

[PLEASE_DELETE]

4 minutes ago, null said:

No, PEVs are singled out because.
In Norway the max device limit is 20Km/h, which is downright dangerous in any traffic setting IMO.

As for @Kai Drange: AFAIK there is no nuances above 20Km/h +10% margin, 25Km/h is as illegal as 200.. (correct me if I'm wrong..)

So I guess the real reason - why is it different?  Considering is 20km/h is slower than a bicycle.  I can do 25-30km/h on a bicycle on flat ground and I'm out of shape.

[null]

16 minutes ago, /Dev/Null said:

So I guess the real reason - why is it different?  Considering is 20km/h is slower than a bicycle.  I can do 25-30km/h on a bicycle on flat ground and I'm out of shape.

I could go on an endless rant, but to try and get to the main points:

- Nobody in charge want to be held responsible for "some accident that could possibly happen" (never mind the benefits of the vehicle and other damage that could be avoided elsewhere) Basically they are dodging their job of doing what is best for society, preferring to cover their arses. (classic I guess)

- Its new so people react with primary fear, discovering all sorts of problems which existed on previous vehicles but apparently weren't a problem then.

I could go on but basically the response is to restrict the shit out of it.
We're lucky they are legal at all 🙄 (though probably the only truly legal EUC is some suicidal KS14M or old solowheel)

Edited March 22, 2021 by null

[Rawnei]

32 minutes ago, Kai Drange said:

Losing my driver's licence or going to jail(?) because of a max speed I will never want or use is a pretty big downside to me! I don't know how it is in the rest of the world, but where I live, if pulled over, the listed max speed is what matters, not what speed I was actually riding it at.

I'll gladly pay for a powerful wheel for safety reasons, but I will never buy one with a listed max speed anywhere close to what the V12 has.

You can always set a preferred lower speed in the app though.

[null]

14 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

You can always set a preferred lower speed in the app though.

But that doesn't count. To be legal max speed can't be adjustable by the user. It has to be a locked.
Same for most of Europe, and I suspect it might be the same in Sweden..

The additional layer of difficulties for EUCs is that the legal text generally goes "shall not be able to go faster than so" which applied to EUCs would mean it would let you fall after max speed is reached. A TB speed limit doesn't let you fall because it continues accelerating.

Edited March 22, 2021 by null

[Rawnei]

28 minutes ago, null said:

But that doesn't count. To be legal max speed can't be adjustable by the user. It has to be a locked.
Same for most of Europe, and I suspect it might be the same in Sweden..

The additional layer of difficulties for EUCs is that the legal text generally goes "shall not be able to go faster than so" which applied to EUCs would mean it would let you fall after max speed is reached. A TB speed limit doesn't let you fall because it continues accelerating.

Police officers don't know how to ride or even less how to check the speed on the wheel so that doesn't really matter, even if that was the case they might confiscate the wheel if it's above spec not pull your license for owning it.

[null]

7 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Police officers don't know how to ride or even less how to check the speed on the wheel so that doesn't really matter, even if that was the case they might confiscate the wheel if it's above spec not pull your license for owning it.

Luckily thats more likely to happen.

However having an accident with a third party is totally excluded because thats when the verifications would start.

Edited March 22, 2021 by null

[AtlasP]

Thread has gone off the deep end again. Mods: maybe time to tighten the reigns before this becomes a repeat of the V11/S18 mega-threads.

1. Discussion of one user's desire for a wheel with very different specs/attributes than the V12 should be split out to its own thread.
2. Discussion of legal speed limits imposed on PEVs should be split out to its own thread.
3. Discussion of feature requests like user-settable safety margins/limits should be split out to its own thread.
4. Probably a few other tangents I've missed due to being forced to skim versus reading due to thread being derailed.

Edited March 22, 2021 by AtlasP

[meepmeepmayer]

19 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

Thread has gone off the deep end again. Mods: maybe time to tighten the reigns before this becomes a repeat of the V11/S18 mega-threads.

Yes. Everyone stay on topic (the V12) please.

[shellac]

bringing the thread back to its roots

 

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, shellac said:

bringing the thread back to its roots

Will there isn't much to talk about if all we have are the "facts" we know 

I suppose that screen demo shows us that the screen isn't very responsive and that it sounds like a seal.

 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by mike_bike_kite

[AtlasP]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I suppose that screen demo shows us that the screen isn't very responsive

The touchscreen looks more than adequate. The device has a physical power button, and otherwise how often do you actually change your wheel settings?--it'll be used 99% of the time as a battery & speed indicator display/output (which is a nice little QOL feature) and very rarely for input.

I'm on the side of viewing such screens as superfluous compared to better smartphone & smartwatch and eventually/ideally helmet HUD options, but if they're going to become 'a thing', then the demonstrated implementation looks fine. (No worse than the touchscreen stereo in my modern car, which I use without issue far more regularly than one will ever physically interact with the touchscreen on an EUC.)

Also while I would usually agree with those who prefer the usability of physical buttons coupled with a screen over a touchscreen for something like this, there's no doubt it is much easier to achieve better waterproofing with a completely sealed touchscreen versus with physical buttons poking through holes in the shell. So taking that into account I think I'd prefer this kind of touchscreen approach for this application.

Edited March 22, 2021 by AtlasP