King Song S18 Discussion

[stephen]

So what do you guys think, speedyfeet s18 review

 

[Jpd]

2 hours ago, stephen said:

So what do you guys think, speedyfeet s18 review

 

Makes me glad I ordered the v11 instead! The v11 seems much more refined, I’ll buy the 2nd gen s18.

[AtlasP]

On 6/14/2020 at 6:18 PM, stephen said:

So what do you guys think, speedyfeet s18 review

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Refreshingly honest as usual. Yikes, seems like a repeat of the 16X all over again--a rush job with a host of problems. And this is the third video to show panels popping off, which we now see are just glued on!

This is the EUC equiv of a poser's "looks super off-roady but only ridden in cities for looks" motorcycles.

Edited June 16, 2020 by AtlasP

[.....]

Seems that my supply of various glues, surpasses that of KS manufacturing facilities. I'd have to say that the review does NOT instill much confidence in me. He made some very valid points, and that tire rubbing is unacceptable. Kingsong still cant make a reliable app either?!! Angles of the shock valves are such that they cant be accessible very easily?! I see upper and lower body panels moving independently of each other during normal ride vibrations. Range seems LESS than my 18L. Excess wobble during rear lean stopping. Weighs a LOT for its range now. Having to unlock the trolley to lift with it? Single charge port.  That aluminum battery box being so low...  Hmm, this review has me second guessing my preorder, as its not too late to shift those $$ somewhere else. The v11 holds no interest for me, but these heavy, long range new offerings sure do.. I guess we'll be seeing 3d printed shock boots emerging to keep those forks cleaner. Of course, those forks aint holding valves or assisting in dampening, so its not THAT big a deal.   I'm still waiting for a reviewer to beat the holy shit out of the wheel, just as a normal day on rock mountain trails will do for me. I would like to applaud speedyfeet for conducting a mature and rather fair review... muchas grassyes!

Edited June 15, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[AtlasP]

Maybe if Gotway ever fires their MOSFET glue-gun guy he could go to work for KS gluing on their chintzy cosmetic panels. ;-)

Edited June 15, 2020 by AtlasP

[EUChristian]

Well that was surprisingly depressing. Sincerely hope this product isn’t rushed In order to protect the sales margin lost if the V11 made it out first. Will patiently wait for more info but two grand is a lot of money to gamble with. If it was my business I personally wouldn’t be shipping wheels to reviewers unless my product was somewhat ready to go (minor issues I would ensure the reviewers knew about). Doesn’t need to be rock solid but has to inspire confidence. Perhaps this was a lemon. I’ll hold my judgement for now but if this release goes badly awry I would argue that it will prove somewhat disastrous for their brand and I enjoy Kingsong products and do not want to see that happen. More brands, more completion, more innovation - that’s the beauty of the free market. Knowing that they are watching these early reviews I hope they tweak some things...

Edited June 15, 2020 by EUChristian

[.....]

6 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

Well that was surprisingly depressing. Sincerely hope this product isn’t rushed In order to protect the sales margin lost if the V11 made it out first. Will patiently wait for more info but two grand is a lot of money to gamble with. If it was my business I personally wouldn’t be shipping wheels to reviewers unless my product was somewhat ready to go (minor issues I would ensure the reviewers knew about). Doesn’t need to be rock solid but has to inspire confidence. Perhaps this was a lemon. I’ll hold my judgement for now but if this release goes badly awry it’s going to prove somewhat disaster out. for their brand and I enjoy Kingsong products. Knowing that they are watching these early reviews I hope they tweak some things...

I agree completely. In a rush to get info out, they are shooting themselves in the foot. I WOULD NOT release any products to testers, knowing full well they will share the results, if I KNEW there was still issues to iron out. Surely these wheel companies know how to discretely send out units for testing but NOT info release? Puts a bad taste in my mouth, to even be aware of any slight issues. I should be kept in the dark until they have a finished product. Testing an idea should not be public. Testing the actual product should. What we are seeing is testing of pre-production models, with the promise that issues will be fixed. Umm... promises are just words, its the reality of what it is TODAY, that we will believe.

Edited June 15, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[AtlasP]

You guys act like this is a first-time phenomenon, when in fact they did this exact same thing with the 16X which was rushed to compete with the Nikola and plagued by problems at launch.

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by AtlasP

[mrelwood]

Wow, Speedyfeet’s review was very detailed and honest in both it’s criticism and in showcasing the virtues of the S18. Great job, Ian! Can’t wait for his V11 review!

[fbhb]

2 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Wow, Speedyfeet’s review was very detailed and honest in both it’s criticism and in showcasing the virtues of the S18. Great job, Ian! Can’t wait for his V11 review!

Over 30 minutes long too!  But the time passed really quickly as to not feel anywhere near that long, due to how interesting Ian made his review.

[FinRider]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I agree completely. In a rush to get info out, they are shooting themselves in the foot. I WOULD NOT release any products to testers, knowing full well they will share the results, if I KNEW there was still issues to iron out. Surely these wheel companies know how to discretely send out units for testing but NOT info release? Puts a bad taste in my mouth, to even be aware of any slight issues. I should be kept in the dark until they have a finished product. Testing an idea should not be public. Testing the actual product should. What we are seeing is testing of pre-production models, with the promise that issues will be fixed. Umm... promises are just words, its the reality of what it is TODAY, that we will believe.

I on the other hand strongly disagree! These ”issues” have nothing to do with a ”rush-job”. 

Keep in mind that this is a ”pre-production” version or ”demo” version (this was mentioned several times in the review). A manufacturer does this always, they run a batch that is called the 0-series, meaning they want to check that the end result of the assembly is acceptable, so the ”problems” encountered can be recognized and addressed prior to the start of mass production.

2 assembly related issues were caught in this review. The tire rubbing and the loose panel where the glue failed. KS is aware of this (at least after watching this review) and can thus adress it. The app-battery glitch was embarrassing, but also to be expected in an early pre-production release.

The only ”negative” from this review is the wobbles under breaking. The cause was identified and I bet that adding padding for support higher up on the leg will resolve this as mentioned by Ian.

Excellent and honest review of the New Kingsong. In my opinion it works as promised, can’t wait for the 250km and 1000km reviews.

[meepmeepmayer]

The rubbing noise is disappointing. It is no big problem, and it can easily be fixed. But it just shows they still don't get the basics right. You would think "enough" clearance between tire and shell isn't something they still struggle with. You would think 1-2cm is a no-brainer, allowing for all kinds of alternative tires, dirt not making the tire rub, etc. Why do they insist on these stupid tiny clearances?!

[jimjam.nyc]

Honestly I am happy I moved away from buying either of the suspension wheels for now.

I will say I support and applaud both KS and IM for  moving things fwd, but neither of these wheels for me were worth beta testing for 2k. The reviews of both have made me feel good about my decision.

Don't take this wrong if you want one of these. Both look really good and are worth it if it fits your needs and budget. 

For me it just makes me more excited to see the second iteration of suspension wheels and how things improve.

[fbhb]

@Jack King Song has posted the following on Ian's YouTube video, in response to the concern's raised in the video and also by myself via Facebook:

King Song International  57 minutes ago

 

Thank you for your video Ian!

 

1. We've done tests to ensure that the wheel does not break if you do end up crashing it, it is by no means fragile. There's videos of China's EUC champion doing stunts and dropping his wheel without issue.

2. We understand the padding glue issues, and this issue will be focused on final production.

3. Rubbing issue: The tire isn't the tire we are using for preproduction isn't the same as final production, we are well aware of this issue and this issue will be fully addressed.

4. We'll get in touch with the Darknessbot team to support the S18.

 

Thanks! Jack-KS

Edited June 15, 2020 by fbhb

[EUChristian]

51 minutes ago, fbhb said:

@Jack King Song has posted the following on Ian's YouTube video, in response to the concern's raised in the video and also by myself via Facebook:

King Song International  57 minutes ago

 

Thank you for your video Ian!

 

1. We've done tests to ensure that the wheel does not break if you do end up crashing it, it is by no means fragile. There's videos of China's EUC champion doing stunts and dropping his wheel without issue.

2. We understand the padding glue issues, and this issue will be focused on final production.

3. Rubbing issue: The tire isn't the tire we are using for preproduction isn't the same as final production, we are well aware of this issue and this issue will be fully addressed.

4. We'll get in touch with the Darknessbot team to support the S18.

 

Thanks! Jack-KS

Appreciate the update Jack. 

[EUChristian]

4 hours ago, FinRider said:

I on the other hand strongly disagree! These ”issues” have nothing to do with a ”rush-job”. 

Keep in mind that this is a ”pre-production” version or ”demo” version (this was mentioned several times in the review). A manufacturer does this always, they run a batch that is called the 0-series, meaning they want to check that the end result of the assembly is acceptable, so the ”problems” encountered can be recognized and addressed prior to the start of mass production.

2 assembly related issues were caught in this review. The tire rubbing and the loose panel where the glue failed. KS is aware of this (at least after watching this review) and can thus adress it. The app-battery glitch was embarrassing, but also to be expected in an early pre-production release.

The only ”negative” from this review is the wobbles under breaking. The cause was identified and I bet that adding padding for support higher up on the leg will resolve this as mentioned by Ian.

Excellent and honest review of the New Kingsong. In my opinion it works as promised, can’t wait for the 250km and 1000km reviews.

I absolutely see your point, but I stand by my comment that if it turns out to be a rush job it hurts their business model.  Do you agree? Would you agree with me the 16x was rushed?  I’m guessing you would not but I could be wrong. I accept some things minor things will always be wrong on early models but since we both have an opinion on what is acceptable I doubt we would ever agree on that point, which helps drive healthy debate.  I frankly agree with Atlas P that the 16x was rushed and I enjoy Kingsong products so not at all trying to pick at them. Quite simply if I spend 2 grand on a device I want it to work well, not necessarily perfect, out of the box and I personally believe that is a fair requirement. Several arguments in this thread based around the subjectivity of this point in this thread so I will not rehash this again. 
 

My post was more a projection of worry than judgement. We will have to wait and see. I would not send a model in this condition regardless of whether it was labeled pre-production or not, for a real review.  If I was I would also send a list of noted items being worked on. It’s been how long since Kuji had one...a month now?  Wouldn’t you fix the panel issue with duct tape or super glue if nothing else so you eased peoples minds?  Just conjecture here but I think that’s pretty fair. 
 

To be honest I will wait to see how the first batch looks before ordering now - so they have not lost a customer. However I’ve personally lost some confidence around the preorder and perhaps on any company releasing a new model. 
 

Joshua

Edited June 15, 2020 by EUChristian

[tim716]

I honestly don't understand all the scepticism. We all know that KingSong is no Mercedes Benz and they don't have the attention to details as of Maybach premium models. I expected such MINOR issues like pads falling off and the tire rubbing. (By the way, 18" Stridas rub their forward tires on some screw and are still very popular anyways). I can bet issues like that will be still present in early production wheels. But we also know that Kingsong also avoided MAJOR (that is rendering the wheel unusable and/or dangerous for riders) issues in their new wheels so far. This is the most important thing. If, for example, we saw a high speed cut off, a broken suspension or the shock shot into the riders' anus - that've been a completely different story. I hope (and am rather sure) Kingsong is focusing on THAT. And these small issues will be eventually sorted out via the warranty and recalls. 

So, nothing awful so far.

[onizukagto]

to be honest, how they announced the rakes of the S18, seems to be a rushed job to steal the thunder from inmotion. 

Not that I think that's not a valid thing,  but if its just done to damper the competition and not genuinely planned out properly, it can do more harm then good.

At least we know inmotion seemed to have better organisation and polish (not hard compared to other EUC companies).

Hopefully we will know later down the road when the batches ship in and prove whether kingsong can walk the walk and not just talk.

Edited June 15, 2020 by onizukagto

[tim716]

Actually by the way things are going, it looks more like Inmotion has rushed their presentation to match Kingsong.  (Changing the V11 pedal height is certainly no small change!) Inmotion has better "polish" but more history of major issues, which they are much more slow and reluctant to fix. I'd rather get panels falling off a sturdy and reliable wheel than a polished piece of s..t that'd kill me without warning.

[EUChristian]

2 hours ago, tim716 said:

I honestly don't understand all the scepticism. We all know that KingSong is no Mercedes Benz and they don't have the attention to details as of Maybach premium models. I expected such MINOR issues like pads falling off and the tire rubbing. (By the way, 18" Stridas rub their forward tires on some screw and are still very popular anyways). I can bet issues like that will be still present in early production wheels. But we also know that Kingsong also avoided MAJOR (that is rendering the wheel unusable and/or dangerous for riders) issues in their new wheels so far. This is the most important thing. If, for example, we saw a high speed cut off, a broken suspension or the shock shot into the riders' anus - that've been a completely different story. I hope (and am rather sure) Kingsong is focusing on THAT. And these small issues will be eventually sorted out via the warranty and recalls. 

So, nothing awful so far.

I agree - nothing awful so far. All personal opinions so far and that’s what you get when you release videos so far out to generate buzz. What’s best for the consumer is best for the company and I look forward to the actual production model shoring this up. I would have tested the tire before I sent it, the panels before I sent it and if I knew I had issues with this early model I would have sent a sheet detailing that so the reviewers took that into consideration. Wouldn’t you?
 

Panels falling off doesn’t strike me as minor, but that’s my point...each of us has our own scale in our heads of what is acceptable at this stage. I hardly think this is a Mercedes. But frankly I need a Honda. 
 

I will continue waiting and watching. 
 

Cheers folks!

Edited June 15, 2020 by EUChristian

[EUChristian]

1 hour ago, tim716 said:

Actually by the way things are going, it looks more like Inmotion has rushed their presentation to match Kingsong.  (Changing the V11 pedal height is certainly no small change!) Inmotion has better "polish" but more history of major issues, which they are much more slow and reluctant to fix. I'd rather get panels falling off a sturdy and reliable wheel than a polished piece of s..t that'd kill me without warning.

I didn’t see it that way but this is a good point. Probably they were both rushing. Suspension is the game changer for me and many others. 

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, tim716 said:

Actually by the way things are going, it looks more like Inmotion has rushed their presentation to match Kingsong.  (Changing the V11 pedal height is certainly no small change!) Inmotion has better "polish" but more history of major issues, which they are much more slow and reluctant to fix. I'd rather get panels falling off a sturdy and reliable wheel than a polished piece of s..t that'd kill me without warning.

I doubt this is the case. They postponed it from 7th January to their later set date. 

I think the pedal height has been discussed within Inmotion and looking at completion (despite I don't view the S18 direct competition to V11) IM decided to listen to feedback. 

The production delay is due to new parts needed for the pedal hight change. 

On the other hand some might view the review from Speedyfeet as minor issues. But shipping out pre-production wheels to reviewers that has shell rubbing and hard to access shock absorber adjustments isn't ideal as I view it. 

Now I rather wait for a wheel to get ready than rushed. Today IM said production is like to start on the V11 end of this month or early next month. So basically within 2-4 weeks from now. 

I don't know how far KS is on their run. But a few weeks later really wouldn't matter as I see it. The total package in the V11 is so much more appealing to me. Also my 1st batch track record with KS (KS18L and KS16X) is not impressive. So I wouldn't buy a 1st batch KS anymore. My personal opinion after experience owning 2 1st batch KS wheels. I have more trust in IM getting it right, no matter what others say about this. As long I can cruise at 30-35 kmh safely I am happy. I don't need 50+kmh at all. 

 

[FinRider]

3 minutes ago, Unventor said:

 Also my 1st batch track record with KS (KS18L and KS16X) is not impressive. So I wouldn't buy a 1st batch KS anymore. My personal opinion after experience owning 2 1st batch KS wheels. I have more trust in IM getting it right, no matter what others say about this. As long I can cruise at 30-35 kmh safely I am happy. I don't need 50+kmh at all. 

 

Getting a 1st batch anything generally is not a wise decission. I have done it with a couple of cars in the past and all of them ended up having several early recalls.

imho the suspension wheels are for early adopters who ”need” it for their off-road riding. Everyone else should take a chill pill and play the waiting game. Unless you are ready to live with the possible headaches these wheels might induce. 

i need a new wheel, but I will let someone else be the guinea pig (and possibly blow their 2k €£$)... so many guys want the suspension wheels so it will be a buyers market to pick up some used 18” wheels soon

[Unventor]

35 minutes ago, FinRider said:

i need a new wheel, but I will let someone else be the guinea pig (and possibly blow their 2k €£$)... so many guys want the suspension wheels so it will be a buyers market to pick up some used 18” wheels soon

I had plans to sell my KS18L but since my KS16X broke down again, I decided it was more worth to me to keep a backup wheel for rain/winter that the few € it could bring me. But not all will make same decision. 

I also 100% agree that none forced me to buy 1st batch wheels. And I didn't plan for it to happen. But my interaction with IM persuaded me to go for it. I am pretty stoked to get V11.

I just hope from a community standpoint that buyers of S18 will be happy with their choice too. 

In the end it is all about enjoying the EUCride that we all share. 

[chrisdab]

4 hours ago, tim716 said:

or the shock shot into the riders' anus - that've been a completely different story. 

So, nothing awful so far.

That would be something awful