KingSong 16X 1554Wh 2200W 16*3in (Released July 2019)

[houseofjob]

6 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

* No extra speed edge, it seems... or maybe?

Gotway doesn't write true max speeds, always up to 80% power, so that 50kph is them being conservative IMHO, will probably be faster.

If I'm not mistaken, the Nikola is the first EUC ever to have bright LED's flash noticeably in your face when hitting that 80% power (00:25 below), which no one seems to be mentioning(?) for riding situations where it's hard to hear.

 

18 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

It's totally bogus that KingSong is easier. Maybe that was true in pre-2016 wheels, but not now.

??

You don't have to split the case, completely or partially, on a King Song, the tire/motor slips out, which I wish Gotway would do.

The slide-out method is easier IMHO, which all InMotions & King Songs can do.

Edited March 24, 2019 by houseofjob

[Marty Backe]

32 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Gotway doesn't write true max speeds, always up to 80% power, so that 50kph is them being conservative IMHO, will probably be faster.

If I'm not mistaken, the Nikola is the first EUC ever to have bright LED's flash noticeably in your face when hitting that 80% power (00:25 below), which no one seems to be mentioning(?) for riding situations where it's hard to hear.

 

??

You don't have to split the case, completely or partially, on a King Song, the tire/motor slips out, which I wish Gotway would do.

The slide-out method is easier IMHO, which all InMotions & King Songs can do.

You didn't read my bullet points, maybe? Yes, you don't have to split the KingSong case? What's the big deal about splitting the case? At least with Gotway I don't have to remove all the padding (4-pieces on the KS18XL), remove both pedals arms from the shell, and disconnect two cables and undo some of the wiring harness.

But yeah, I do have to split the shell 

[houseofjob]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

You didn't read my bullet points, maybe? Yes, you don't have to split the KingSong case? What's the big deal about splitting the case? At least with Gotway I don't have to remove all the padding (4-pieces on the KS18XL), remove both pedals arms from the shell, and disconnect two cables and undo some of the wiring harness.

But yeah, I do have to split the shell 

Splitting the case is painful IMHO, I guess agree to disagree then. I prefer tire changes with the case-less motor assembly.

.... and yeah, I hate removing the padding too, but usually convert them into velcro-stick-ons, so non-issue for me after (BTW, MTen3 needs pads removed too FWIW)

[Jon Stern]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I have too many wheels 

Yeah? And Imelda Marcos had too many shoes, but that never stopped her buying just one more pair! 😜

Edited March 24, 2019 by Jon Stern

[Rywokast]

33 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Splitting the case is painful IMHO, I guess agree to disagree then. I prefer tire changes with the case-less motor assembly.

.... and yeah, I hate removing the padding too, but usually convert them into velcro-stick-ons, so non-issue for me after (BTW, MTen3 needs pads removed too FWIW)

i vote for next years euc models manufactures look into making these more USER FRIENDLY.... as in not having to pull off pads, undo dozens of screws.. in kingsongs case at least from experience some of which i have to use my entire body weight and strip my screwdriver to get off, then jam something in between the spots where the shells meet and forcibly pry the case apart hoping that nothing breaks, unplug some stuff, in inmotions case remove the pedals, and then try your hardest not to damage the motor cable while attempting to remove the shell from the motor hub.. like there has got to be a more user friendly, easier/quicker way to do it.. and for christs sake dont use self tapping screws directly into thin plastic its beyond cheap and means theres only so many times you can take the thing apart before the screws no longer function and the little snap tabs holding the plastic shell on dont grip it tightly anymore.. like why not have some sort of rubber panel that you pull up to access a strap that holds together the shell, the shell could be hinged on one side or have tabs on both sides and use a rubber seal for a pinch fit when the snap is done back up.. as for disconnecting from the hub that will obviously have to remain the same but then make the pads detachable and not a sticker and have any leds use a single cable connector accessible as soon as you open the shell so you dont have to pull off their covers, unscrew and unplug them all.. just anything to make disassembly easier, more user friendly and something that wont damage the casing

for now we are at sort of a plateau where manufactures are starting to push out new models which yes look nice, but arent anything new or groundbreaking.. for the moment, until battery technology improves, they need to be looking at making these easier to maintain and of higher quality... sure it might cost 50 dollars more to the consumer, but in the long run no single person who is actually serious about euc's would complain rather than them just pumping out different iterations of the same thing

edit: yes, i realise some higher end, new model euc's use inserts for the screws which is a step in the right direction... a small one though because even those are cheap as hell and have been weak points a la ks-18l

Edited March 24, 2019 by Rywokast

[houseofjob]

5 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

i vote for next years euc models manufactures look into making these more USER FRIENDLY.... as in not having to pull off pads, undo dozens of screws.. in kingsongs case at least from experience some of which i have to use my entire body weight and strip my screwdriver to get off, then jam something in between the spots where the shells meet and forcibly pry the case apart hoping that nothing breaks, unplug some stuff, in inmotions case remove the pedals, and then try your hardest not to damage the motor cable while attempting to remove the shell from the motor hub.. like there has got to be a more user friendly, easier/quicker way to do it.. and for christs sake dont use self tapping screws directly into thin plastic its beyond cheap and means theres only so many times you can take the thing apart before the screws no longer function and the little snap tabs holding the plastic shell on dont grip it tightly anymore.. like why not have some sort of rubber panel that you pull up to access a strap that holds together the shell, the shell could be hinged on one side or have tabs on both sides and use a rubber seal for a pinch fit when the snap is done back up.. as for disconnecting from the hub that will obviously have to remain the same but then make the pads detachable and not a sticker and have any leds use a single cable connector accessible as soon as you open the shell so you dont have to pull off their covers, unscrew and unplug them all.. just anything to make disassembly easier, more user friendly and something that wont damage the casing

Agreed.

FWIW, King Song & Gotway have gotten better not being so drill-happy with the power drivers. Plus, if I'm remembering right, the KS-18L/XL switched to hex for the pedal arm -to- shell screws, always a plus.

Still, I'll take de-pedaling if things can be as easy as popping off the V8 twist-shell.

One day maybe we'll have significantly less steps to slide out the motor/tire

[Heyzeus]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

The KingSong disassembly feels slightly more controlled, but the Gotway actually requires less total disassembly. So it's kind of a wash from my experience. If pushed to pick, I would lean towards preferring the Gotway disassembly.

Is that based off your experience mainly with the ACM though.  The ACM was comparatively easy to disassemble for tire changes it seems from some of the videos I've seen online as opposed to their other wheels.  Though the tesla didn't look too bad either from the video on Jason's website.  Looked similar to the 16s method where you don't have to split the shells which is great.

When watching the nikola tear down that ecodrift did, it looks like a huge nightmare compared to say the 16s.  Even if the 16s required more screws I would prefer that over having to split the shells and expose the controller bits and other wiring parts.  Not necessarily because wiring = scary or something so much as it just seems like a more reliable way to do things while minimizing the chances of damaging parts that shouldn't need to be exposed in the first place for a simple tube/tire change. 

Maybe all that wasn't necessary though and ecodrift just did much more than required to expose the tire.  Maybe it's as easy as just taking off the translucent covers and undoing the pedal hanger screws and detaching the motor wire and lifting off.   Guess we will know soon enough.

[Marty Backe]

20 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Agreed.

FWIW, King Song & Gotway have gotten better not being so drill-happy with the power drivers. Plus, if I'm remembering right, the KS-18L/XL switched to hex for the pedal arm -to- shell screws, always a plus.

Still, I'll take de-pedaling if things can be as easy as popping off the V8 twist-shell.

One day maybe we'll have significantly less steps to slide out the motor/tire

Granted, I own the pre-production KS18XL, but on my version the pedal arm-to-shell screws are not hex screws, they are Phillips.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Marty Backe

[Marty Backe]

13 minutes ago, Heyzeus said:

Is that based off your experience mainly with the ACM though.  The ACM was comparatively easy to disassemble for tire changes it seems from some of the videos I've seen online as opposed to their other wheels.  Though the tesla didn't look too bad either from the video on Jason's website.  Looked similar to the 16s method where you don't have to split the shells which is great.

When watching the nikola tear down that ecodrift did, it looks like a huge nightmare compared to say the 16s.  Even if the 16s required more screws I would prefer that over having to split the shells and expose the controller bits and other wiring parts.  Not necessarily because wiring = scary or something so much as it just seems like a more reliable way to do things while minimizing the chances of damaging parts that shouldn't need to be exposed in the first place for a simple tube/tire change. 

Maybe all that wasn't necessary though and ecodrift just did much more than required to expose the tire.  Maybe it's as easy as just taking off the translucent covers and undoing the pedal hanger screws and detaching the motor wire and lifting off.   Guess we will know soon enough.

Based on my experience with the ACM, MSuper, Monster, and Mten3. I have not taken apart my Tesla or MCM5. Of course I can't speak to any wheels which have not been released yet.

It's just when I hear people comment that you just have to slide out the wheel from the KingSong shells, to the uninitiated, it sounds, "wow, so simple". But it's not  simple. You have to remove more screws and disconnect wires, and remove pads (yes, the Mten3 also requires pad removal).

Edited March 24, 2019 by Marty Backe

[Heyzeus]

16 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

It's just when I hear people comment that you just have to slide out the wheel from the KingSong shells, to the uninitiated, it sounds, "wow, so simple". But it's not  simple

I guess the video renders and such make it look much more simple than it is in reality sometimes

[Unventor]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I have too many wheels 

Well that depends don't it?

If you were to become the EUC history museum displaying all EUCs...you have too few wheels

If you add the option to try the wheel for a fee, then toy need 2 of each atleast, ne for display, one for spectator test ride.

So in short, you have way too few wheels @Marty Backe it is a tuff job being world famous

[Rywokast]

2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Agreed.

FWIW, King Song & Gotway have gotten better not being so drill-happy with the power drivers. Plus, if I'm remembering right, the KS-18L/XL switched to hex for the pedal arm -to- shell screws, always a plus.

Still, I'll take de-pedaling if things can be as easy as popping off the V8 twist-shell.

One day maybe we'll have significantly less steps to slide out the motor/tire

oh well thats good.. because my first 16s, the screws on the pedal arms i swear were put on by megatron or something, i didnt know it was humanly possible to have a screw so tight without loctite or it being rusted on.. and worse yet, fkn phillips screws.. i hate phillips they strip like theyre getting paid for it.. glad to hear they moved to hex like inmotion

[Unventor]

I know it is properly too late but it can't hurt to ask. What do you thnk of this @Jason McNeil and @US69?

Would it be possible to ask to get a 1/4" screw mount hole on the front and back of the wheel?

By having this you have minimum impact on the wheel design and you don't do permanent "damage" too the wheel trying to mount extra lamp or action cams on the wheel.

The tricky part is how to get this to come loose in case of baling the wheel and it go into a tumble. Ideally you want parts to easy "break" or rathe come off that breaking the wheel.

Once I get my KS16X, I will properly find an alternative idea though....yet it would be nice to have a utility mounting point....

Edited March 25, 2019 by Unventor

[Rywokast]

1 hour ago, Heyzeus said:

I guess the video renders and such make it look much more simple than it is in reality sometimes

understatement of the year xD two hours into it when your back is killing you and you have no skin on your palms from the rubber screwdriver grip and then thats just getting access to the tire.. changing it is a whole nother ball game its like trying to get a bicycle tire off thats three sizes too small.. im pretty sure the last one i changed my hand slipped about ten times, many of those ending up in me punching the razor sharp pedal arm and bleeding all over the place before i went out and got some non slip gloves.. yea, i would gladly pay someone 100 bucks to change an euc tire rather than doing it myself lol

[Smoother]

On 3/24/2019 at 4:41 AM, Marty Backe said:

I've changed tires multiple times on Gotway and just did so on the KS18XL.

KingSong

• More screws need to be removed compared to Gotway
• All the screws from both pedal hangers must be removed
• The motor wire connector must be disconnected and the wiring hardness must be partially disassembled on one side
• The hall sensor connector must be disconnected and the wiring hardness must be partially disassembled on the other side
• All the pads must be removed (double-sided tape)

Gotway

• Less screws required removal
• Only one of the pedal hangers requires all of the screws be removed. The other pedal hanger doesn't need to be touched
• Zero wires/connectors are disconnected.
• Zero pads are removed.

Bottom Line

The KingSong disassembly feels slightly more controlled, but the Gotway actually requires less total disassembly. So it's kind of a wash from my experience. If pushed to pick, I would lean towards preferring the Gotway disassembly.

It's totally bogus that KingSong is easier. Maybe that was true in pre-2016 wheels, but not now.

My KS14C requires a complete disassembly (I believe) as the motor wires are hard wired to the Control board, So there is no option to disconnect and slide the wheel out of the bottom.

My 16S CAN be slid out because both motor wiring and hall effect wiring has disconnects and go through the same side of the axle.  This is good for disassembly, but bad for axle strength.  Moving half the wires to the other side of the axle (as per newer wheels) is good for axle strength (smaller holes in the middle) but bad for disassembly.  "Swings and roundabouts"* as we say here in jolly ol' England.

But Marty's right.  There are a shit load of screws to find and remove.  And the more times I do it, more and more screws don't seem to screw into anything any more, or plastic snaps (that hold the outer shell to the inner).  At the rate I'm going, in three more disassembles, I'll be down to two screws on each side holding the whole thing together.  One bad tumble and it will explode into 20 pieces like a comic car from a Mister Bean episode.

 

*(The complete phrase; referring to playground equipment: "What you gain on the swings, you lose on the roundabout")

Edited March 25, 2019 by Smoother

[meepmeepmayer]

7 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Gotway doesn't write true max speeds, always up to 80% power, so that 50kph is them being conservative IMHO, will probably be faster.

I sure hope so.

7 hours ago, houseofjob said:

If I'm not mistaken, the Nikola is the first EUC ever to have bright LED's flash noticeably in your face when hitting that 80% power (00:25 below), which no one seems to be mentioning(?) for riding situations where it's hard to hear.

I missed that part. Great idea! Though it's still not exactly enough (together with the voltage display) to give it some kind of special edge.

With the shell size, they could have doubled the batteries (3200Wh!!) and it would have been no contest which wheel I would buy. Mainboard held in place with a random distancer screw on (not in) the plastic and a blob of silicone or not.

[Blueblade]

11 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I have too many wheels 

First world problems! 😋

[Hatchet]

The 16x looks like a perfect wheel to me. 16"x 3", 2k motor, 1554 wh, 50lbs, and I absolutely love the look of it I am in love! I wish I could get it in black matte rubber and gunmetal finish.

The only downside I have seen to the 16x is they still haven't fixed the annoying whine of the motor. My MSX has spoiled me for a quiet ride.

 

[mrelwood]

On 3/24/2019 at 12:57 AM, meepmeepmayer said:

Nikola advantages:

* Gotway Glide (presumably) for relentless power delivery, ride feeling, more power on mountains.

Kuji mentioned that the 16X feels slightly more powerful than Nikola.

On 3/24/2019 at 12:57 AM, meepmeepmayer said:

* More comfy 17'' tire.

There are no 17” or 19” tires. The Nikola and MSX specs just have the virtual Gotway inch in them.

To be more specific, the bicycle standard numbering used in EUCs tells the outer diameter of the tire, which is somewhat meaningless since the inner diameter is what must match the rim size exactly. Therefore the outer diameter is only an approximate, and all 16” tires fit on a 12” rim no matter if the actual outer diameter was 14” or 17.5”. Wider tires of course have a larger outer diameter.

Let me end by quoting the master EUC distributor of the US, our beloved friend Jason: 

On 3/23/2019 at 6:50 PM, Jason McNeil said:

 

On 3/23/2019 at 8:50 PM, Jason McNeil said:

the Nikola has the CST 16x3" tire, same as the 16X.  

 

Lesson to be learned? Never mind the announced specs.

[meepmeepmayer]

Those are just announced (second party) specs too

If the 3 inch wide tires automatically have a bigger outer diameter, so be it, both wheel have a 17 inch tire then. And the outer diameter matters because that's what influences torque, for a EUC the inner diameter actually is the useless information (other than fitting the rim).

Kujia said more torque, not necessarily power, right? For now, I'm going by his 18XL vs MSX hill test where the 18XL seemed to limit its power while the MSX did not.

It's all speculation for now anyways.

[mrelwood]

1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said:

so be it, both wheel have a 17 inch tire then.

You can call them that, but they both have ”16x3.0” stamped on them.

 

[meepmeepmayer]

EVERYBODY LIES!

Or maybe they somehow really made a 16x3 tire whereas the MSX "18x3" tire was more like 19.somethingx3. I don't know.

Going to assume both tires are the exactly same size for now (whatever that size is).

[Jason McNeil]

Thanks @tinawong for providing the 3D mock-up of the CF finish. I quite like this when contrasted with the grey side-panel overtones. It's a toss-up between the rubberized matte black finish & this. 

We'll definitely need to get a real-life texture sample to see how it looks in reality.   

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Thanks @tinawong for providing the 3D mock-up of the CF finish. I quite like this when contrasted with the grey side-panel overtones. It's a toss-up between the rubberized matte black finish & this. 

We'll definitely need to get a real-life texture sample to see how it looks in reality.   

Sure looks nice to me - I'd buy one 

[meepmeepmayer]

Better than just a boring black. Looks might fine.

10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Sure looks nice to me - I'd buy one 

Me too.