Inmotion V13 Speculation

[chanman]

I get that they need a lot of fets to handle the current and that the higher voltage ones can't handle as much current individually as the lower voltage ones.

But 42? In a design where if a single one fails it stops working? Seems counterproductive to the reliability goal to have so many, odds of getting a bad one go up dramatically. Maybe mitigated if there's some proper stress testing of the boards before they get shipped out, but I wouldn't count on it. And the cost of all of those chips, wow.

Edited August 2, 2022 by chanman

[Funky]

24 minutes ago, chanman said:

I get that they need a lot of fets to handle the current and that the higher voltage ones can't handle as much current individually as the lower voltage ones.

But 42? In a design where if a single one fails it stops working? Seems counterproductive to the reliability goal to have so many, odds of getting a bad one go up dramatically. Maybe mitigated if there's some proper stress testing of the boards before they get shipped out, but I wouldn't count on it. And the cost of all of those chips, wow.

42 times something can go wrong. 

[Robse]

What's the matter with all you whitered and dusty old guys (and girls.. ?) can't you remember anything?

 

[Wraith Rider]

15 minutes ago, Funky said:

42 times something can go wrong. 

Not necessarily, The more mosfets, the more it will be distributed which actually means less likely to burn one.  The only caveat would be that hopefully they changed who they are getting their mosfets from so it doesn't end up an issue like the v12.  

[That Guy]

I can imagine what is happening in other HQ's meanwhile:

Veteran are chatting with their former mates from GW about how to steal an electrical engineer who could teach them 134V,

Kingsong are working on a new cartoon,

Begode are riding those famous clay hills on a couple of 24" 160kph 3200wh prototypes quickly glued together last week...

...and all of them are hoping that at least the V13 will be $5k or the traditional First Batch Syndrome...

But if those hopes are broken by InMotion, then the alternative name for V13 may be "The Penetrator"? :-)

[techyiam]

I am really glad that Inmotion is in pursuit of building euc's that don't cutout. The V13 will be their first euc in their lineup engineered to be this type of euc. Even if they are not totally successful in their first attempt, based on announced spec's, it would be hard to say that the V13 is a superficial attempt.

Additionally, based on announced spec's so far, they also seemed to have taken battery fire seriously, and raised the bar in battery safety in the euc sphere. 

They also have taken water proofing to a new level.

Together, these efforts will really help to take the fear out of euc ownership, and perhaps attract a larger audience.

Moreover, for those riders who are in pursuit of shortening their travel time further, this got to be good news. 🙂

 

 

[onizukagto]

13 hours ago, techyiam said:

 Cooling won't be easy either.

Isn't that why it has Two active cooling fans? If we go by that cgi illustration. 

10 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Nice approach, though, waterproof (is it? Raw metal connectors on the top?) and all.

Raw metal? Looks like they only have two XT connectors on top of the sealed waterproof case? XT are pretty solid water resistant connectors, just short of full pressured immersion. 

With two XT connectors, one to the battery, the other to the motor. 

You can unplug it from the top without having to crash open the case. 

Edit:

oh, the exposed "metal" you are taking about the blue and green wires? 

Does look like it's only held there with ring terminals... Looks like the wires to the motor? Guess the two XT connectors are for the side batteries. 

If those are motor cables, at least they are easy to remove?

But I can see your point about them being "exposed", seems interesting that everything else is shielded but not these. 

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by onizukagto
Screen shot added

[gon2fast]

55 minutes ago, onizukagto said:

But I can see your point about them being "exposed", seems interesting that everything else is shielded but not these. 

This seems to be a 3D rendering. The actual boards will be splattered in some kind of Silicone... or maybe they will keep things clean with conformal coating.  

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, onizukagto said:

Isn't that why it has Two active cooling fans? If we go by that cgi illustration. 

Commander, EX.N also have cooling fans. That doesn't mean they won't run hot. 

But the CTO at Inmotion is claiming 1000 A continuous.  That"s  I^2 x R watt of heat. And the internal resistance of those mosfets are not exactly low.

We will have to wait for more details to really know.

Edited August 3, 2022 by techyiam

[daniel1234]

I am allergic to sales videos :

Motorcycle grade connector / package  - yellow xt** connectors are not motorcycle / automotive grade. 
6 times more capacitor - I dont get why. More capacitor is not better, since it is about overall capacitance and internal resistance. Capacitors should not produce much heat - can someone explain what they mean ?
42 mosfets - pff again bigger quantity of bad part will not make final product better.  Quality before quantity !

 

 

[techyiam]

12 minutes ago, daniel1234 said:

42 mosfets - pff again bigger quantity of bad part will not make final product better.  Quality before quantity !

But you don't have any proof that the mosfets used in the V13 are bad. No details have been released yet, nevermind tested.

And if the mosfets are not bad, is the use of 42 mosfet bad or not bad, and why?

Basically, what you have asserted is that bad is bad. And bad plus bad is also bad.

Analogously, it is like saying 100 x zero = 100000000 x zero. Therefore, large quantities is not better than lower quantities. 

And then you draw the conclusion that quality before quantities. But your premise does not support your conclusion.

Your argument is based on very serious flawed logic, and no technical knowledge. 

[techyiam]

34 minutes ago, daniel1234 said:

Motorcycle grade connector / package  - yellow xt** connectors are not motorcycle / automotive grade. 

I can give you a counter examples: CBR125R, Ninja 300, GSXR-750, have poorer grade connectors than the XTxx ones.

[daniel1234]

37 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Your argument is based on very serious flawed logic, and no technical knowledge. 

Dear Immotion fan guy, I am sorry you got offended. There is thread named "V12 Cutout tracking" disproving your theory . Take a look ...

[Chriull]

19 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Let the "which chip??" guessing game begin! 
https://www.mouser.com/c/semiconductors/discrete-semiconductors/transistors/mosfet/?mounting style=SMD%2FSMT&number of channels=1 Channel&package %2F case=D2PAK-3|~TO-263~~TO-268-3&pd - power dissipation=200 W~~890 W&transistor polarity=N-Channel&vds - drain-source breakdown voltage=200 V&sort=pricing&rp=semiconductors%2Fdiscrete-semiconductors%2Ftransistors%2Fmosfet|~Package %2F Case|~Pd - Power Dissipation 

The mentioned 1000A continous just leaves 3 mosfets from mouser:

https://www.mouser.at/ProductDetail/Vishay-Siliconix/SUM90100E-GE3?qs=TuK3vfAjtkUs%2B2OfO0bqyg%3D%3D

https://www.mouser.at/ProductDetail/IXYS/IXTT220N20X4HV?qs=IS%2B4QmGtzzolLLv7Nw%2FWsw%3D%3D and

https://www.mouser.at/ProductDetail/IXYS/IXFT220N20X3HV?qs=%2B6g0mu59x7IwBYQ5e%2FkzlA%3D%3D

 

18 hours ago, techyiam said:

For low end torque protection, they have 18 capacitors, and a driver board that can handle 1000 A continuous. Don't forget, the rider has to torque against a 22" wheel.

18 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Perhaps I missed something- what's that based on?

I could see 350A through 7x TO-263 FETs in parallel... 1000A output seems quite a stretch. 

The first has a R DS on of 12.9mOhm - roughly doubling this for high temperatures to 20 mOhm with 1000/7~140 gives a dissipated power of 140*140*0.02=392W ... which rules this choice out for continous operation...

The second has 5.5 mOhm and 160A package limit. Still some 200W per mosfet to dissipate... This times 7 times 2 gives 2kW on a 20x9 cm heatsink....

So there could be some new meaning/definition fot "continous". I'd assume the marketing deparment just took the maximum possible current - which would be 7*160A (package limit) = 1120. But no idea why the rounded the figure down...

Besides - 1000A at 126V leads to 0.126Ohm max total resistance for the li ions internal resistance and the motor coils resistance...

 

1 hour ago, daniel1234 said:

6 times more capacitor - I dont get why. More capacitor is not better, since it is about overall capacitance and internal resistance. Capacitors should not produce much heat - can someone explain what they mean ?

If capacitors are (over)burdened with high ripple currents as in EUCs they produce masses of heat - some fried motherboards could presumably died in because of overheated (spraying and then burning) capacitors.

Dividing the current on many capacitors is a great idea. Also to provide localy and timely these high currents such distribution directly to all the mosfets is a good design choice.

1 hour ago, daniel1234 said:

42 mosfets - pff again bigger quantity of bad part will not make final product better.  Quality before quantity !

I assume it's a similar reasoning like the designers of the master pcb followed - change to smd mosfets and by this avoid hand soldering and bend mosfet legs! Should lead to a great quality improvement.

Increasing the amount of mosfets also simplifies (or makes at all possible) to distribute the currents on the pcb and heat on the heatsink.

[techyiam]

6 minutes ago, Chriull said:

So there could be some new meaning/definition fot "continous". I'd assume the marketing deparment just took the maximum possible current - which would be 7*160A (package limit) = 1120. But no idea why the rounded the figure down...

Yup, excited to hear the details on how they implemented the 1000 A continuous capability, and their cooling system. You have to admit though, if they manage to pull this off, they will be sitting pretty when it is time to counter Begode response. 

[meepmeepmayer]

5 hours ago, onizukagto said:

oh, the exposed "metal" you are taking about the blue and green wires? 

Does look like it's only held there with ring terminals... Looks like the wires to the motor?

Yes, I meant the ring terminals (thanks, now I know what they are called!). These are clearly the three motor phases (blue, green, yellow). Can these truly be called waterproof connectors?

Sometimes I wonder if manufacturers understand that some things are determined by the weakest link instead of the average. This seems like an oversight in "waterproofing" the wheel to me. Not that I expect that to ever be a problem (unless the wheel gets submerged), and it's way better than any other wheel. But still...

[RagingGrandpa]

3 hours ago, Chriull said:

1000A continuous just leaves 3 mosfets from mouser:

https://www.mouser.at/ProductDetail/Vishay-Siliconix/SUM90100E-GE3?qs=TuK3vfAjtkUs%2B2OfO0bqyg%3D%3D

I realize it's 150A per chip @ room temperature; but look closely- it's derated to about 50A at 125°C die temperature. 
And I think we need faster-switching FETs for our motor current modulation, so more likely one like SUM90220E.

(And Inmo has access to China-brand semiconductors not sold by Mouser, such as Huntek, JMJ, and Hooyi... so it's a wild goose chase to guess which specific part it is before there's official info.)

I took the "1000A" verbal comment as a simplification of the FET specsheet (times 7 parallels), and not an indication of how much motor current the V13 will actually deliver. Because 250A is the previous highest-current EUC controller, and at working temperature, single-leg TO-263 packages don't even get close to 150A per chip.
1000A is a theoretical maximum; but won't be achieved in a real V13. 
350A, plausible. 1000A, no way.
 

3 hours ago, Chriull said:

I'd assume the marketing department just took the maximum possible current - which would be 7*160A (package limit) = 1120

Exactly.
 

3 hours ago, Chriull said:

1000A at 126V

No way  
That would be 126kW input power, a 50C discharge that no cell could achieve. 
Better to leave voltage out of this  

Instead, we're talking about motor current on its own. In a stall condition, perhaps only ~50A battery current @ 120V could muster >300A motor output, at an average output voltage < 20V. 
 

3 hours ago, Chriull said:

Dividing the current on many capacitors

change to smd mosfets and by this avoid hand soldering and bent mosfet legs

Good things, yes!
 

8 hours ago, techyiam said:

And the internal resistance of those mosfets are not exactly low.

Exactly.
Because of the 200V-rated FETs, even considering a more realistic (but still groundbreaking) 300A motor output, we're talking >400W dissipated at the controller. 
For comparison, the Begod RS controller dissipates about 200W at its maximum.
 

13 hours ago, techyiam said:

pursuit of building euc's that don't cutout
V13 will be their first

What!? 
All EUC's are designed to self-balance without interruption. All of them. It was always the pursuit.

This V13 controller is more powerful... but nothing about 'having many small FETs and caps' automatically makes it more reliable. Hundreds of additional details must be executed properly, to achieve a reliable product.

It's still a one-wheeled self-balancing machine. If one thing breaks, you'll crash, same as always. ATGATT.
 

I took the "never cut out" comments from the presentation as meaning 'so powerful that you won't be able to overlean it.'
A daredevil challenge that many of my big american brethren will accept.

[Freestyler]

No matter how much the hardware is overbuild, It only takes for one line of code to make a wheel cutoff or be unsafe.

As the wheels get more complicated, the chance of screwing something in software increases.

Split pedal modes, hill assist, motor calibrations, current limiting in low speeds, hall sensor error handling, actions based on smart-BMS etc.

See the v12 ghost accelerations, Abrams hall sensor issues, s22 fire, 18xl endless freespin etc...

All of the above are mostly software issues.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Freestyler

[Unventor]

On 8/2/2022 at 5:12 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

There is no 200V battery; it's 126V.
We're just discussing the peak voltage rating of the chips...

That might be the case.

However what they are doing is to make clear statement this is not just a last year model with a added battery pack development. 

For several years forum members had asked for overenginered design and construction. 

Now the question here is of course very valid if they went over the top. 

I think we will see this very fast once reviews of actual production model start to surface. 

One thing is very clear to me. Inmotion has listed to the different critical feedbacks and gone back to deal with it. People might thing they were too quiet in that process, but this is how Asian culture differ to EU and US in my experience. I am not saying what is right or wrong here. 

[Scoo]

3024wh battery att 240 cells should mean same battery as Sherman. I have seen Sherman peak 10900 watts att 12A per cell.

Inmotion motor stated at 10 000W peak and 4500w continous would work with sherman like battery.

The mosfets can handle 200V but might see in worst case with fully charged battery a 10-20% voltage peak over 126 volt. During load and lower charge that will go down.

Motor currents of begode wheels can go arround 240A if i remember correctly. This is during low speed high torque on the wheel you can achive that. Maybe on V13 they manage to go upp to 300A and have the mosfets beeing able to handle 1000A. What ever max motor ampere they picked it wont be near 1000A, then you would need even bigger motor cables and magnets will saturate.

I think what they are saying is that the components will have really big margins. 

[RagingGrandpa]

17 minutes ago, Scoo said:

I think what they are saying is that the components will have really big margins. 

Yes, it's what they're saying.

But really, it seems the only "big margin" is in breakdown voltage (200V).

The rest is typical, or worse than typical, compared to today's EUC's. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XKzPubuNuMMc1zLEN3nZ-oEYB8dSkfv-/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=103589734469719588261&rtpof=true&sd=true

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said:

But really, it seems the only "big margin" is in breakdown voltage (200V).

The rest is typical, or worse than typical, compared to today's EUC's. 

I'd say that the announced power and speed figures are larger by a pretty big margin.

[Scoo]

46 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I'd say that the announced power and speed figures are larger by a pretty big margin.

I agree that they will have great margins on power and speed if they put tiltback at 70 Km/h like the warning in the motor video. 

10 kw peak motorpower is not much margin at lets say 100 km/h. 

Here is one tour with a Sherman att 10,9kw and top Speed of 66,2 km/h:

https://euc.world/tour/600919900804307

[Unventor]

On 8/2/2022 at 9:02 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm starting to think the V13 price might not count as budget friendly...

Nice approach, though, waterproof (is it? Raw metal connectors on the top?) and all

Might be a good chance you don't (need) to more than one EUC for some time.

So bigger investment but less cost over time as you don't keep buying new wheels all the time. 

[Wraith Rider]

17 hours ago, daniel1234 said:

Dear Immotion fan guy, I am sorry you got offended. There is thread named "V12 Cutout tracking" disproving your theory . Take a look ...

Dear not imotion fan guy, I'm sorry you have been proven wrong. There are threads called Begode and Kingsong.