Inmotion V13 Speculation

[Wraith Rider]

13 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

I realize it's 150A per chip @ room temperature; but look closely- it's derated to about 50A at 125°C die temperature. 
And I think we need faster-switching FETs for our motor current modulation, so more likely one like SUM90220E.

(And Inmo has access to China-brand semiconductors not sold by Mouser, such as Huntek, JMJ, and Hooyi... so it's a wild goose chase to guess which specific part it is before there's official info.)

I took the "1000A" verbal comment as a simplification of the FET specsheet (times 7 parallels), and not an indication of how much motor current the V13 will actually deliver. Because 250A is the previous highest-current EUC controller, and at working temperature, single-leg TO-263 packages don't even get close to 150A per chip.
1000A is a theoretical maximum; but won't be achieved in a real V13. 
350A, plausible. 1000A, no way.
 

Exactly.
 

No way  
That would be 126kW input power, a 50C discharge that no cell could achieve. 
Better to leave voltage out of this  

Instead, we're talking about motor current on its own. In a stall condition, perhaps only ~50A battery current @ 120V could muster >300A motor output, at an average output voltage < 20V. 
 

Good things, yes!
 

Exactly.
Because of the 200V-rated FETs, even considering a more realistic (but still groundbreaking) 300A motor output, we're talking >400W dissipated at the controller. 
For comparison, the Begod RS controller dissipates about 200W at its maximum.
 

What!? 
All EUC's are designed to self-balance without interruption. All of them. It was always the pursuit.

This V13 controller is more powerful... but nothing about 'having many small FETs and caps' automatically makes it more reliable. Hundreds of additional details must be executed properly, to achieve a reliable product.

It's still a one-wheeled self-balancing machine. If one thing breaks, you'll crash, same as always. ATGATT.
 

I took the "never cut out" comments from the presentation as meaning 'so powerful that you won't be able to overlean it.'
A daredevil challenge that many of my big american brethren will accept.

Yea I have to admit Inmotion sometimes step on themselves with their wording or maybe what they actually said doesn't translate directly.  Actually we don't know that more fets or caps to this degree won't make it more reliable.  It still has to be tested.  The daredevil challenge has been in existence since EUCs started boasting speed.  Nothing new.  Inmotion are at least pushing the bounds to see what the limits are in terms of making the wheel safer and just just pushing the limits to see how fast it will go.  

[conecones]

With these grand promises being made on the preview videos so far, and no useful information on how they are looking to achieve them, this leaves a lot of unanswered questions. For example, are they expecting the viewers to just assume that adding a bunch of capacitors and mosfets will provide a "cutout-free experience" without actually explaining how? Throwing big numbers on the screen just gives the impression they are more interested in winning the marketing game than actually building what they are claiming.

The recent track record of flagship Inmotion wheels has not been great.

V11:

• Bearing issues (improved but never fully resolved)
• Saddle issues (improved but never fully resolved)
• Board issues on recent batches
• Battery or BMS issues on recent batches (fire risk)
• Marketed as a revolutionary "off-road" wheel but in reality falls apart quickly and too fragile in actual off-road use...

V12 HS:

• Launched while V11 still working through bearing issues, customers had doubts but fresh marketing videos from influencers cause short term memory loss
• Cut outs, spin tests, then more cut outs
• Weak rim
• Weak/poor pedal hanger design (bolts loosen & strip easily)
• Weak stock pedals
• Marketed as a "high performance" 70 km/h wheel and Sherman competitor, but in reality has inflated speedometer, aggressive tilt-back and fails to match the performance & reliability of 100V Nikola released in 2019, and not even close to the EXN released in 2020.

V12 HT:

• Launched while V12 HS still working through cut-out issues
• STILL has board or software issues causing cut outs (experienced twice by Adam from Wrong Way) No formal confirmation of resolution.
• Same weak pedal hanger & pedal design as HS.
• Marketed as the ultimate off-road wheel but in reality fails to match performance of RS19 HT released in 2020, due to weak axle, small rim causing limited tire options. No serious off-road rider will pick this over the RS, no matter how many more times they film Mike Leahy & gang hitting jumps on this wheel.

The recurring theme is that previous marketing don't match reality, so I have no choice but to remain pessimistic on whether this Aug. 11 reveal and eventual product will "be beyond the realm of imagination"  At the end of the day, all I see is a company that took two years to fail spectacularly at delivering their first 100V wheel, while two other competitors succeeded and succeeded earlier. This looks like a desperate attempt to catch up - I wish them luck but my wallet will not be taking part this round.

[techyiam]

5 hours ago, Unventor said:

Might be a good chance you don't (need) to more than one EUC for some time.

So bigger investment but less cost over time as you don't keep buying new wheels all the time. 

Logically, perhaps.

Somehow, I don't think that is necessary reality. The minds of many euc owners work in mysterious ways. In addition, there can be failures related reasons to make unexpected purchases. 🙂

Let's use @FrenchUsa as an counter example.  He started in the summer of last year. He bought a V11, but the board died on the first day (firmware update failure, never ridden). In turn, he bought an Inmotion V10F to learn on. Within two months of ownership, the battery of his V10F died.  Subsequently, he bought an S18. About 3 months later, he bought a Sherman. He said he was looking for more range. During the winter months, he was recovering from shoulder surgery, that he said was unrelated to euc activities. Interestingly enough, he sold his S18, and bought an mten-3. He also sold his Sherman. In March of this year, he announced that he had preordered 3 wheels: Sherman Max, Hero, and the S20.

Based on your logic, you would think his Sherman purchase would surely keep his euc purchases at bay for a while. It is expensive and capable. But noooooo. I did notice his purchases were more predictable during his initial learning stage though.

Long story short, he did not end up buying the S22. But he did get the Sherman Max (had to send it back due to battery range issues), Hero, Master, and Monster Pro. And he is saying his interest in the V13 is developing. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

12 hours ago, Scoo said:

I agree that they will have great margins on power and speed if they put tiltback at 70 Km/h like the warning in the motor video. 

10 kw peak motorpower is not much margin at lets say 100 km/h. 

Here is one tour with a Sherman att 10,9kw and top Speed of 66,2 km/h:

https://euc.world/tour/600919900804307

My interest in the Sherman is non-existent so I'm not sure, but doesn't it report a false output power based on wrong calculations from the phase current, like Gotways do? I exceeded 10kW on the 84V MSX many times, while I'm struggling to reach 3kW on the powerwise comparable V11.

4 hours ago, conecones said:

fail spectacularly at delivering their first 100V wheel, while two other competitors succeeded

Your post was full of small mistakes and exaggerations, this included. Kingsong has never produced a 100V wheel, and seems to be still struggling in delivering decent low speed performance from the 126V S22. Which is called S22 and no longer S20 because of a spectacular fire in the middle of NY traffic. And which came out a year later than the 100V V12.

V11 falling apart easily sounds like a very different wheel than the V11 that I use for off-roading.

And the V11 bearing issues were solved exactly the same way that all hollow motors have been equipped since, again an Inmotion first.

And so on. But we all form our opinions based on what we read here, which is pretty far from an accurate source of information. So the end result is always biased in some form.

[Unventor]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

Long story short, he did not end up buying the S22. But he did get the Sherman Max (had to send it back due to battery range issues), Hero, Master, and Monster Pro. And he is saying his interest in the V13 is developing. 

Some people buy thinks for different reasons. That said this one I don't think follow how most riders purchases. Also the reasons of change to something different can be a change is how you use the EUC. 

@coneconesI am not going to change you views at all. But you can make similar lists on any EUCs more or less the past few years.

And problems do occur depending on how you treat your EUC. If you drive a sports car as a tank then it will not do the job very long or a tank as a sports car. I have never had any bearing issues on my V11s. But I have had other problems. As for saddle part it is not designed to be a crash bumper. The V11 is not a dirt bike but it can be use fine in off road situations. 

I have no experience with V12 series. But some choose to call it marketing game, yet to be me it is showing that they try to address the problems they had had in the past. How they succeed at Inmotion I am pretty sure time will tell. 

And yes there is units that will fail. So do Apple, Tesla, Samsung and other well known brands with high markets hares in their field. 

[Paul g]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

And so on. But we all form our opinions based on what we read here, which is pretty far from an accurate source of information. So the end result is always biased in some form.

If this and other groups and forums where people can freely exchange information would not exist, we would not have access to any accurate source of information.

We would only have fake claims from producers and fake clips running on youtube where smart guys would sell us anything.

[Unventor]

21 hours ago, Paul g said:

If this and other groups and forums where people can freely exchange information would not exist, we would not have access to any accurate source of information.

We would only have fake claims from producers and fake clips running on youtube where smart guys would sell us anything.

What you read about here is not accurate representation of the world. It will give you insights but you do not know the exact number of sales and faults. Not all riders use this forum as active riders. There are a lot of passive readers here. 

Not all faults are shared with facts either. Some stories are posted to help get a problem fixed that might be outside normal warranty claim. 

As an example I did mention I had control board problem with my V11. But I caused the first board to get fried because I mounted motor wires in wrong order/place. 

The other board I wanted to change was to get first batch board exchange for new updated layout. Not needed but still my own decision and pocketmoney. 

Now one of the new boards died on me after 500m on first ride. I do not know why. But I assume it had to do with mosfet failing on other board around the same time when components were impossible to get. 

I got a new board but it was shipped in very poor packaging so the cooling block had broken so I do not trust there might not be other damage to the board that I cannot see. 

Not all would say they mounted things wrong because that mean they have to pay up for a repair/part. 

So to swing this post back on track. When I had a meeting with Inmotion staff and CEO, around Easter my feedback was to not have a solution where motor wires can be mounted in wrong order. 

So on the hint of reveal we have seen about the control board the did talk briefly about this. I am not sure it is good enough way they have done it in my opinion but it seems improved. Once people start to review the EUC then we know more. 

This meeting I had with Inmotion was very interesting as some things that seem very simple can be very costly or lead to many other considerations. 

It is very clear to me they are working very hard on all wheels they release. And there are a lot small details that has changed from previous models because community feedback. 

And this is where this forum "might" have a bigger impact that most think. Inmotion do listen when information is presented constructively. 

[conecones]

On 8/4/2022 at 5:21 AM, mrelwood said:

Your post was full of small mistakes and exaggerations, this included. Kingsong has never produced a 100V wheel, and seems to be still struggling in delivering decent low speed performance from the 126V S22. Which is called S22 and no longer S20 because of a spectacular fire in the middle of NY traffic. And which came out a year later than the 100V V12.

V11 falling apart easily sounds like a very different wheel than the V11 that I use for off-roading.

And the V11 bearing issues were solved exactly the same way that all hollow motors have been equipped since, again an Inmotion first.

And so on. But we all form our opinions based on what we read here, which is pretty far from an accurate source of information. So the end result is always biased in some form.

The two companies I was referring to are Veteran & Begode, as I don't count ExtremeBull as a separate company. Since Kingsong is also struggling with their first high performance flagship, this is even more reason to keep expectations realistic. If Inmotion couldn't build a reliable 100V wheel in 2 years, can we really trust them to do everything they claim (and perhaps trust them enough to pre-order) with just more videos? 

Overall what I was trying to say is that they released promo videos showing guys jumping this wheel off rocks and touting it a great off-road wheel (and I almost bought it for this) but in reality it wasn't built for this abuse and the S18 & RS proved why. It's great this works for you but the V11's in our local off-road group rides are never able to keep up and makes the worst noises while the RS19/MSP HT dominates with only one S18 rider who can keep up. All the good riders here would not consider V11 as an off-road worthy wheel with its shortcomings. Inmotion should have done more rider testing before claiming this was an off-road wheel.

On 8/4/2022 at 5:26 AM, Unventor said:

@coneconesI am not going to change you views at all. But you can make similar lists on any EUCs more or less the past few years.

And problems do occur depending on how you treat your EUC. If you drive a sports car as a tank then it will not do the job very long or a tank as a sports car. I have never had any bearing issues on my V11s. But I have had other problems. As for saddle part it is not designed to be a crash bumper. The V11 is not a dirt bike but it can be use fine in off road situations. 

I have no experience with V12 series. But some choose to call it marketing game, yet to be me it is showing that they try to address the problems they had had in the past. How they succeed at Inmotion I am pretty sure time will tell. 

And yes there is units that will fail. So do Apple, Tesla, Samsung and other well known brands with high markets hares in their field. 

Yes, all EUC's have issues, which is why I am highlighting these issues as reminders since it's easy to get lost in the hype and hype tends to override critical thinking leading to poor purchase decisions. 

The V12 failures can be explained by good reasons such as poor quality components during COVID, but what Inmotion cannot make a good excuse for is why they never officially recalled the first batches or instructed owners/distributers to stop riding/selling them. The closest they came was asking people to do a spin test that was not reliable. As many smarter people have explained, even with good components, the original V12 boards are not safe based on its design. How can they consciously make this decision to not recall while touting their commitment to safety? This is why one year later, we are still reading about reports of people on V1/V2 boards cutting out because the retailers were not told to stop selling the V12's during this whole fiasco. As usual, eWheels were holding their orders at their own discretion. 

I got burned on the V12 even though I waited 6+ months after first batch units were tested (amazing reviews all around). In summary, I bought a Batch 2 in December 2021 and it took until July 2022 to receive the new board (aka, a working wheel). I had no choice but to buy another wheel to ride while this paperweight sat in the garage. So I hope its understandable that it's going to take more than more promotional videos to change my mind about this company.

[Wraith Rider]

3 hours ago, conecones said:

The two companies I was referring to are Veteran & Begode, as I don't count ExtremeBull as a separate company. Since Kingsong is also struggling with their first high performance flagship, this is even more reason to keep expectations realistic. If Inmotion couldn't build a reliable 100V wheel in 2 years, can we really trust them to do everything they claim (and perhaps trust them enough to pre-order) with just more videos? 

Overall what I was trying to say is that they released promo videos showing guys jumping this wheel off rocks and touting it a great off-road wheel (and I almost bought it for this) but in reality it wasn't built for this abuse and the S18 & RS proved why. It's great this works for you but the V11's in our local off-road group rides are never able to keep up and makes the worst noises while the RS19/MSP HT dominates with only one S18 rider who can keep up. All the good riders here would not consider V11 as an off-road worthy wheel with its shortcomings. Inmotion should have done more rider testing before claiming this was an off-road wheel.

Yes, all EUC's have issues, which is why I am highlighting these issues as reminders since it's easy to get lost in the hype and hype tends to override critical thinking leading to poor purchase decisions. 

The V12 failures can be explained by good reasons such as poor quality components during COVID, but what Inmotion cannot make a good excuse for is why they never officially recalled the first batches or instructed owners/distributers to stop riding/selling them. The closest they came was asking people to do a spin test that was not reliable. As many smarter people have explained, even with good components, the original V12 boards are not safe based on its design. How can they consciously make this decision to not recall while touting their commitment to safety? This is why one year later, we are still reading about reports of people on V1/V2 boards cutting out because the retailers were not told to stop selling the V12's during this whole fiasco. As usual, eWheels were holding their orders at their own discretion. 

I got burned on the V12 even though I waited 6+ months after first batch units were tested (amazing reviews all around). In summary, I bought a Batch 2 in December 2021 and it took until July 2022 to receive the new board (aka, a working wheel). I had no choice but to buy another wheel to ride while this paperweight sat in the garage. So I hope its understandable that it's going to take more than more promotional videos to change my mind about this company.

There is honestly no comparison in customer service if you compare the EUC companies.  Begode and Veteran are pretty much non existent, while KS does listen to its customers, there isn't full real fixes to any of their existing wheels.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't, while Inmotion might not be perfect, they offered free replacement boards for the V12 and also offered free shipping.  While the pandemic played a part in their initial issue of subpar quality mosfets, and then manufacturing and shipping of the new boards, they still come through with supplying them.  I've noticed several V12 owners that didn't get what they want in the time frame they wanted are the most badgering on posts especially on FB.  We all get your issue, don't buy inmotion if your that devastated, no need to keep playing a broken record.

[onizukagto]

13 hours ago, conecones said:

The two companies I was referring to are Veteran & Begode, as I don't count ExtremeBull as a separate company. Since Kingsong is also struggling with their first high performance flagship, this is even more reason to keep expectations realistic. If Inmotion couldn't build a reliable 100V wheel in 2 years, can we really trust them to do everything they claim (and perhaps trust them enough to pre-order) with just more videos? 

.... 

Yes, all EUC's have issues, which is why I am highlighting these issues as reminders since it's easy to get lost in the hype and hype tends to override critical thinking leading to poor purchase decisions. 

The V12 failures can be explained by good reasons such as poor quality components during COVID, but what Inmotion cannot make a good excuse for is why they never officially recalled the first batches or instructed owners/distributers to stop riding/selling them. 

So, you're comparing costumer service to Begode and veteran? 

 

 

And then mention product "recall" in the same post? 

I mean, has any euc manufacturer done a recall? 

After all those Begode fires for YEARS and that one SPECTACULAR KS fire, did we get a recall? 

How about veteran cutouts? 

Honestly, its hard to take you seriously when you justify your criticism of inmotion with such high benchmarks and then use competing EUC manufacturers as comparison. 

At the end of the day, this is about the V13 not the V12, there's is a thread about that issue and I'm sure you will have fun discussion your baggage there too people who will be willing to listen.

The V13 technical announcements are statements of hardware solutions specifically to address the freedback from the community. 

 You can be skeptical as you should be, but you can also be optimistic as you should be. 

Until we get a chance to see reviews and get our hands on the V13, nothing is certain. 

 

 

[Scoo]

On 8/4/2022 at 11:21 AM, mrelwood said:

My interest in the Sherman is non-existent so I'm not sure, but doesn't it report a false output power based on wrong calculations from the phase current, like Gotways do? I exceeded 10kW on the 84V MSX many times, while I'm struggling to reach 3kW on the powerwise comparable V11.

You intrest of V11 is not what i am looking for it is that is has same amount of 18650 cells and should be similar maximum power output of the battery. I have seen begodes really exceed the battery powe limit as you say but not veterans, I don't know if they are right.

I used My V11 for arround 3300 km and weigh 70 kg with gear so far and normal rides i often get arround 4.2-4.4 kw peak. I usualy don't pass 45 km/h. I have seen 4 kw at arround as low as 35 km/h when i really push it.

I Thin max of V11 i think is arround 5kw

My conclusion is that you would need more that 2x power for 2x Speed to have good margin.

Lets i normaly pull 4kw att 40 km/h. Than say that i try to accelerator at 80 km/h that is 2x speed.

mv^2/2 gives that it makes 4x energy to accelerate as fast which i won't need.  The wind resistance increase also increase 4x. I don't think you need 16x power to increase Speed but i think it is more than 2x.

Electric motorcycles use arround 1kwh/10km att arround 100 km/h. This mean continous 10kw in avrage to maintain that speed.

I think you can get to 100km/h with 10kw peak but also that is just right in the edge. I think 70 Km/h would mean a good margin for a "non cut out wheel"

Edited August 6, 2022 by Scoo

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, Scoo said:

You intrest of V11 is not what i am looking for it is that is has same amount of 18650 cells and should be similar maximum power output of the battery. I have seen begodes really exceed the battery powe limit as you say but not veterans, I don't know if they are right.

I used My V11 for arround 3300 km and weigh 70 kg with gear so far and normal rides i often get arround 4.2-4.4 kw peak. I usualy don't pass 45 km/h. I have seen 4 kw at arround as low as 35 km/h when i really push it.

I Thin max of V11 i think is arround 5kw

My conclusion is that you would need more that 2x power for 2x Speed to have good margin.

Lets i normaly pull 4kw att 40 km/h. Than say that i try to accelerator at 80 km/h that is 2x speed.

mv^2/2 gives that it makes 4x energy to accelerate as fast which i won't need.  The wind resistance increase also increase 4x. I don't think you need 16x power to increase Speed but i think it is more than 2x.

Electric motorcycles use arround 1kwh/10km att arround 100 km/h. This mean continous 10kw in avrage to maintain that speed.

I think you can get to 100km/h with 10kw peak but also that is just right in the edge. I think 70 Km/h would mean a good margin for a "non cut out wheel"

How agreesive you ride from low speed to mid speed is one thing, but I doubt people understand the EUC will do it from 70 to 100 kmh.

Those that know what they are doing and are able to control and push to 100kmh are aware of this. If not them it is like buying a Farrai and going top speed and not holding a drivers licence. 

Yes I know one don't need a drivers licence for EUC. And that will mean it can set riders in unsafe situations as they don't understand how much power they are in control or lag of control of. 

This is why I personally think EUC should be limited to 50kmh. These are not the same vehicle as a motor cycle no matter how much a rider want it to be. The big point here is self balancing and traction. This is you need to consider to how fast you can break and how in control you are in an emergency situation. 

As of the 10kw statement for peak, it depends on where you see this reported from. Compared to GW-brands this has always been reported differently in the apps. 

That said Inmotion said in the promotion that cutout should not happen. But if you really want to push this and not riding using your head then you will have trouble. 

Just like you cannot give full throttle in a Farrai in snow and ice roads in going down hill in the mountains because you think it is fun. The car will loose control and as a driver one should know this. 

I my opinion too many do not understand how riding stress an EUC. Speed takes power but you also have momentum to help. Going very slow over obstacles or up a steep hill is likely to be a much bigger problem. Or very aggressive speed changes. 

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, Unventor said:

This is why I personally think EUC should be limited to 50kmh. These are not the same vehicle as a motor cycle no matter how much a rider want it to be.

This sounds like you are limited by your knowledge and experience.  I think you are under estimating some individuals who are highly skilled, knowledgeable, and experienced. I am not saying that I am one of those. But those types of advanced riders exist. Who am I to tell them, that I know better, and won't allow them the freedom to choose. I won't be surprised that some of these advanced riders can ride safer at an elevated speed, then some riders at a significantly lower speed.

Following your logic, there would no Red Bull Rampage.

Limit top speed to 50 km/h for the euc's that you ride, yes. Limit top speed to 50 km/h for euc's across the board, no.

Edited August 6, 2022 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

12 minutes ago, techyiam said:

This sounds like you are limited by your knowledge and experience.

He's been around for a good while. I think for a few years before you came to the forum. But that is pretty irrelevant.

12 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I think you are under estimating some individuals who are highly skilled, knowledgeable, and experienced.

Of course there are. There always are some people way more skilled than others, in anything. But they wouldn't cause an increased danger if they'd slow down to 50km/h. The rest of the fast riders though may not have the required comprehension of their own skills, and in result their "freedom" causes significant danger. Why should they be allowed to ride faster than their skills allow?

 

12 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Who am I to tell them, that I know better, and won't allow them the freedom to choose.

People don't deserve the right to the freedom of choosing to cause danger to others. That's why there are rules in the society.

12 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I won't be surprised that some of these advanced riders can ride safer at an elevated speed, then some riders at a significantly lower speed.

I've seen it first hand, it is very true. Same goes for car drivers. I know a guy who drives like a grandma and has crashed many times. His friend always speeds like crazy, yet has never crashed.

Should that be used as an excuse for the grandma driver to be allowed the freedom to drive faster?

 

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

But they wouldn't cause an increased danger if they'd slow down to 50km/h. The rest of the fast riders though may not have the required comprehension of their own skills, and in result their "freedom" causes significant danger.

You are making a big assumption to assume that euc riders are more dangerous than others sharing the road when the euc riders are riding above 50 km/h. Your assertion is obviously not evidence based.

 

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Why should they be allowed to ride faster than their skills allow?

If this was followed, probably more than the half the drivers around here have to turn in the licenses. Some of these drivers are dangerous, even driving at a slow speed. Bad drivers are bad drivers. Driving slow doesn't necessarily make you less dangerous. 

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

People don't deserve the right to the freedom of choosing to cause danger to others. That's why there are rules in the society.

Do you know the statistics for traffic fatalities in the USA? If everyone chose not to drive in the USA, 38,824 lives would not have been lost in 2020 alone. Yet society chose to give that freedom. 

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Should that be used as an excuse for the grandma driver to be allowed the freedom to drive faster?

Following your logic, since there are a few mrelwoods that can be considered dangerous, should they drive above 20 mph, all cars should then be limited to a top speed of 20 mph across the board.

Edited August 6, 2022 by techyiam

[Tawpie]

There are speed limits on roadways, they apply equally to qualified F1 drivers and novice bike operators alike. And I do believe that 'most' if not all street legal automobiles do have a top speed governor, maybe not, but I think they do. It's set stupid fast, but the concept of model specific manufacturer imposed speed caps aren't new by any means.

We all hope and expect that people will use common sense. But we are after all, people. So at some point there's going to be a rule.

[Scoo]

Hehe. The point i wanted to make was not Speed limiting.

More that i don't think that 10kw peak is enough to run an EUC att 100 km/h without high risk of cut-out like monster pro at 90 km/h

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

You are making a big assumption to assume that euc riders are more dangerous than others sharing the road when the euc riders are riding above 50 km/h. Your assertion is obviously not evidence based.

Of course it isn't. Fast EUCs have existed only for a few years, and no-one can predict how the stats will turn out. For example the braking distance on EUCs tends to be far longer than with other road vehicles. If you don't think that can be risky, I don't know what else to say.

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

If this was followed, probably more than the half the drivers around here have to turn in the licenses.

Followed? I simply proposed a question.

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

Driving slow doesn't necessarily make you less dangerous.

 Not necessarily no. But driving or riding faster tends to make you more dangerous.

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

Yet society chose to give that freedom.

Here we turn to unreasonable deductions. If all people stopped eating, we'd save dozens of lives from fatal food poisoning.

A lot of things are rooted so deep in society that they simply can't be revoked, no matter how senseless or dangerous they might be. But they can't be and aren't being used as excuses to allow other dangerous activities.

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

Following your logic, since there are a few mrelwoods that can be considered dangerous, should they drive above 20 mph, all cars should then be limited to a top speed of 20 mph across the board.

As I'm trying to have a sensible discussion, I have to ask: Is that really what you think my point was? That if I think some limits may be good, then I  would surely really like some random ridiculously low limit?

If the freedom fighters truly think that we're trying to impose impossible, inpractical and pointlessly low speed limits, you really should read the messages with better concentration. It's no wonder these discussions never get anywhere.

Edited August 6, 2022 by mrelwood

[sunstrong]

Speaking of speed, I think we should get rid of concepts like motor vehicles, bikes, pedestrians, instead just put speed limits on all pathways.

sidewalk -> 10 kmh

bike lane -> 30 - 40 km/h etc.

Just an example not necessarily scientific.

Oh yeah, maybe also a size limit for vehicles going along with speed rules, maybe preventing EUCs which could be physically unstable at high speeds going onto highways, while banning bigger wider vehicles like cars on bike lanes or sidewalks for example.

As technology evolves we should definitely rethink the terms when considering much more flexible PEVs especially EUCs. Ride a 100 km/h top speed V13 on the sidewalk? No problem, as long as you stay at the speed limit.

i fear this wont be a future we will live in though. Maybe there are also things I didn’t consider. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by sunstrong

[Wolverine]

On 8/3/2022 at 6:05 PM, Freestyler said:

No matter how much the hardware is overbuild, It only takes for one line of code to make a wheel cutoff or be unsafe.

As the wheels get more complicated, the chance of screwing something in software increases.

Split pedal modes, hill assist, motor calibrations, current limiting in low speeds, hall sensor error handling, actions based on smart-BMS etc.

See the v12 ghost accelerations, Abrams hall sensor issues, s22 fire, 18xl endless freespin etc...

All of the above are mostly software issues.

This is exactly what I have been thinking for a long time about this new unicycle.

Recently, Inmotion released an update in which the software monitors both battery packs simultaneously, compares them with each other, and, if necessary, notifies the rider of anomalies. Before the update, their software did not have this, and each battery pack was dealt as a separate battery packs. Only in the last update they coded new lines to compare these battery packs with each other in software. However, Inmotion unicycles with multiple battery packs have been available for a very long time and they only recently came out with such an important feature. Where were they for so long? So, this makes me very worried.

In terms of V13 hardware, everything is nice, but I don't think they can manage it with the software. It seems to be just too much for them.

[techyiam]

15 minutes ago, Wolverine said:

However, Inmotion unicycles with multiple battery packs have been available for a very long time and they only recently came out with such an important feature. Where were they for so long? So, this makes me very worried.

But at least in the case of the V12, the app allows the user to compare the voltages from each battery pack.

My T3 does not even have this feature. 

[Paul g]

58 minutes ago, Wolverine said:

This is exactly what I have been thinking for a long time about this new unicycle.

Recently, Inmotion released an update in which the software monitors both battery packs simultaneously, compares them with each other, and, if necessary, notifies the rider of anomalies. Before the update, their software did not have this, and each battery pack was dealt as a separate battery packs. Only in the last update they coded new lines to compare these battery packs with each other in software. However, Inmotion unicycles with multiple battery packs have been available for a very long time and they only recently came out with such an important feature. Where were they for so long? So, this makes me very worried.

In terms of V13 hardware, everything is nice, but I don't think they can manage it with the software. It seems to be just too much for them.

It is quite easy to set up a code line to compare the two values. I don’t know why they didn’t do it until now 

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, Paul g said:

It is quite easy to set up a code line to compare the two values. I don’t know why they didn’t do it until now 

I know the V11 and V12 have this feature now. Do you know which other wheels have thus feature?

[Nick McCutcheon]

I'm surprised they even needed to do this at all. The V11 and V12 are very good at not charging a failed pack, and it would notify you of an error anyways. The BMS's are fairly "smart". There isn't really any danger in letting it charge to full, the bad pack will stop charging while the good one will charge up. I've charged many V11 and V12 wheels like this for troubleshooting reasons, never had any issues even in the case of one pack being bad. The rider obviously shouldn't ride the wheel like this, so all I think they need to do is to force tiltback if the user attempts to ride. Sometimes, if a V11 or V12 reports a pack imbalance, charging to full will actually resolve the issue.

Now, with this update (which bricks the wheel if you connect it to the app without the update installed, I don't agree with that decision), the wheel will just yell really loud while a user is trying to charge to full to see if it will resolve their issue. If a pack truly is bad, just let them know at the end of a charge and prevent riding. It's that easy. This seems like a bit of an overreaction on IM's part. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Nick McCutcheon

[Paul g]

On 8/4/2022 at 6:05 AM, conecones said:

 

V12 HT:

• Launched while V12 HS still working through cut-out issues
• STILL has board or software issues causing cut outs (experienced twice by Adam from Wrong Way) No formal confirmation of resolution.
• Same weak pedal hanger & pedal design as HS.
• Marketed as the ultimate off-road wheel but in reality fails to match performance of RS19 HT released in 2020, due to weak axle, small rim causing limited tire options. No serious off-road rider will pick this over the RS, no matter how many more times they film Mike Leahy & gang hitting jumps on this wheel.

The recurring theme is that previous marketing don't match reality, so I have no choice but to remain pessimistic on whether this Aug. 11 reveal and eventual product will "be beyond the realm of imagination"  At the end of the day, all I see is a company that took two years to fail spectacularly at delivering their first 100V wheel, while two other competitors succeeded and succeeded earlier. This looks like a desperate attempt to catch up - I wish them luck but my wallet will not be taking part this round.

😂 Mike Leahy rides the V12 HT only for filming the clips, otherwise he still rides his padded RS. The thin axle would not last a full day of jumping.

InMotion has a lot more to learn to become a serious contender on all the range of unicycles. The V12 is not bad, just so many stupid issues that ruined it. I guess you can’t expect some miracle from a company for which 25kmph was the death limit not long ago.

I was nicely surprised to see that Veteran choose a hollow bore for the SherMax, and I think was the right choice and would be for all EUCs, not only the HT, with the condition to be properly sealed even if it would add a little bit of weight. Maybe V13 will have a hollow bore???