Inmotion V13 Speculation

[UniVehje]

 

[techyiam]

42 mosfets!

1000 A continuous, 200 V.

Go big or go home!

60 mph, no cutouts.

It got my attention. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by techyiam

[onizukagto]

22 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

 

Bloody hell. 200V @ 1000 Amps.

Sounds impressive but the example given about riding SF steep roads at that given weight/speed for "all day" is pretty sketchy. But I can understand about giving official statements without specific conservative conditions. Just clumsy wording here I suspect. 

Can't wait for the 11th.

 

[techyiam]

8 minutes ago, onizukagto said:

the example given about riding SF steep roads at that given weight/speed for "all day" is pretty sketchy.

He was giving an example to showcase how robust the new, from the ground up driver board is. Not that you can actually ride all day since the battery capacity would be the limiting factor. It is no longer easy to use the V12 driver board history to smear the V13.

Edited August 2, 2022 by techyiam

[Konst]

It looks like there is no connector between motor and controller to easy unplug it for tire change. But wires are bolted ontop, still much easier than on V11 or Master.

Still nothing about suspension ;(

Their marketing department know what to do!

[jimjam.nyc]

10 minutes ago, techyiam said:

He was giving an example to showcase how robust the new, from the ground up driver board is. Not that you can actually ride all day since the battery capacity would be the limiting factor. It is no longer easy to use the V12 driver board history to smear the V13.

Lets see if the quality controls improve overall. I like what they are showing so far, but it has to work as described. Putting out there a no cutoff experience... will open the floodgates of complaints the first time something happens that results in a cutoff. 

Also the price estimate for me seeing all of this just continues to rise. I wonder if this will be the most expensive wheel on the market along with all of the other things it is the first of! 

Overall though I am getting excited for it. Still not sure i will buy it (famous last words) :-)

[RagingGrandpa]

58 minutes ago, techyiam said:

42 mosfets!

Let the "which chip??" guessing game begin! 
https://www.mouser.com/c/semiconductors/discrete-semiconductors/transistors/mosfet/?mounting style=SMD%2FSMT&number of channels=1 Channel&package %2F case=D2PAK-3|~TO-263~~TO-268-3&pd - power dissipation=200 W~~890 W&transistor polarity=N-Channel&vds - drain-source breakdown voltage=200 V&sort=pricing&rp=semiconductors%2Fdiscrete-semiconductors%2Ftransistors%2Fmosfet|~Package %2F Case|~Pd - Power Dissipation 

But why choose 200V?
All the 200V parts have much worse resistance... so they'll pay to lay down 7 parallels, jeepers. The chips may survive but the total dissipation of the assembly will be very high. Instead, I'd prefer a design like Master (4 parallel 150V FETs), which is the lowest-total-dissipation controller we've seen yet. 
Funny that Inmo previously chose 100V FETs for a 100.8V EUC and got in big trouble for it... skipping 150V and jumping to 200V parts seems like an overreaction. 
 

41 minutes ago, onizukagto said:

200V @ 1000 Amps.

There is no 200V battery; it's 126V.
We're just discussing the peak voltage rating of the chips...

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

But why choose 200V?
All the 200V parts have much worse resistance... so they'll pay to lay down 7 parallels, jeepers. The chips may survive but the total dissipation of the assembly will be very high. Instead, I'd prefer a design like Master (4 parallel 150V FETs), which is the lowest-total-dissipation controller we've seen yet. 

Inmotion appears to be seeking generous safety margins. We have to wait for more details on their cooling system.

8 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Funny that Inmo chooses 100V FETs for a 100.8V EUC and got in big trouble for it... skipping 150V and jumping to 200V parts seems like an overreaction.

Inmotion can't catch a break. They either get criticized for having too small a margin, or for having a too large a margin. 🙂

[Wraith Rider]

8 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Let the "which chip??" guessing game begin! 
https://www.mouser.com/c/semiconductors/discrete-semiconductors/transistors/mosfet/?mounting style=SMD%2FSMT&number of channels=1 Channel&package %2F case=D2PAK-3|~TO-263~~TO-268-3&pd - power dissipation=200 W~~890 W&transistor polarity=N-Channel&vds - drain-source breakdown voltage=200 V&sort=pricing&rp=semiconductors%2Fdiscrete-semiconductors%2Ftransistors%2Fmosfet|~Package %2F Case|~Pd - Power Dissipation 

But why choose 200V?
All the 200V parts have much worse resistance... so they'll pay to lay down 7 parallels, jeepers. The chips may survive but the total dissipation of the assembly will be very high. Instead, I'd prefer a design like Master (4 parallel 150V FETs), which is the lowest-total-dissipation controller we've seen yet. 
Funny that Inmo previously chose 100V FETs for a 100.8V EUC and got in big trouble for it... skipping 150V and jumping to 200V parts seems like an overreaction. 
 

There is no 200V battery; it's 126V.
We're just discussing the peak voltage rating of the chips...

 

But yet master has a handful of cutout reports already just in posts.  Not sure the master design is better.  Only time will tell for this config.  Nothing wrong with overkill IMHO, its what most of us have been asking for a long time.  But if your going to do it, it might as well be on the most over the top wheel made yet.

[techyiam]

18 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

Lets see if the quality controls improve overall. I like what they are showing so far, but it has to work as described. Putting out there a no cutoff experience... will open the floodgates of complaints the first time something happens that results in a cutoff. 

Also the price estimate for me seeing all of this just continues to rise. I wonder if this will be the most expensive wheel on the market along with all of the other things it is the first of! 

Overall though I am getting excited for it. Still not sure i will buy it (famous last words) :-)

Well, at outset, they are trying to reassure us that driver board has very generous margins. Until we get more details, it is looking good so far.

Cutting out at top speed won't be easy. I suspect riding an euc standing-up much past 60 mph won't be a easy thing to do. Try it on a motorcycle at 60 mph. It is a lot of wind force. They seem to be very confident that their V13 won't cut out at 60 mph for a 170 lbs or lighter rider.

For low end torque protection, they have 18 capacitors, and a driver board that can handle 1000 A continuous. Don't forget, the rider has to torque against a 22" wheel.

Pricing wise, we will have to wait and see. Everyone already seen what happened to the Hero when it was initially released with a big price tag. 

I am looking forward to the V13. I am now hitting 60+ km/h on my V12. It is so easy to do. When there is light traffic, I am finding that I am riding 40+ km/h without realizing it. It does seem fast anymore. Once an euc has reached the stability level sufficiently near a small displacement motorcycle, the riding experience is so different. 

[RagingGrandpa]

2 minutes ago, techyiam said:

driver board that can handle 1000 A continuous

Perhaps I missed something- what's that based on?

I could see 350A through 7x TO-263 FETs in parallel... 1000A output seems quite a stretch. 

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Perhaps I missed something- what's that based on?

I could see 350A through 7x TO-263 FETs in parallel... 1000A output seems quite a stretch. 

They didn't give details in the video. But the Inmotion Chief Technology Officer did made that claim in the video. He even said continuous. Cooling won't be easy either.

[Robse]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcnRVrUraT8

Indeed, looks very good! Do you want to bet?  Problems will appear, and if not, then i will eat a frozen pizza - frozen, as punishment.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Robse

[Paradox]

Why 18 caps?  Why not 6,9,12 or 15?  For that matter, why not 21,24 etc?

[Tawpie]

29 minutes ago, Robse said:

if not, then i will eat a frozen pizza - frozen, as punishment.

Way to take one for the team... (pizza, really? How is pizza in any form, akin to 'punishment'? I say instead: kale for breakfast, with warm milk)

 

Really neat developments. It looks like they're paying 100% attention to packaging this time... closing the opportunities for assembly errors and tolerance stackup. And it's a continuation of improvements that signals a shift in fundamental thinking about what is important.

Similar to Master, I see a solid opportunity for this packaging idea to be the foundation of a 'platform' they can use both to launch new designs, and to refresh their current offerings. Exciting times!

@Robse, I doubt you have any need to save frozen pizza to serve your self imposed sentence... might as well just warm it up and eat it all now!

Edited August 2, 2022 by Tawpie

[Robse]

5 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

@Robse, I doubt you have any need to save frozen pizza to serve your self imposed sentence... might as well just warm it up and eat it all now!

Hehe  - yes, we'll see how it goes.  It looks good, and i hope for them (Inmotion) that it works well,  and for once it can help to raise the level of the other "products" on the market offered to us  "crash test dummies"   If it's as good as it looks, then the competitors are forced to "level up".

[techyiam]

I suspect Inmotion designed-in generous margins, also factored in Begode future response.  Should that happen, Inmotion would be in a good position to counter. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by techyiam

[meepmeepmayer]

18 capacitors.

42 MOSFETs (they'll do anything to not use TO-247, won't they?)

20x9 cm heatsink (at this point you can officially use it as a murder weapon)

I'm starting to think the V13 price might not count as budget friendly...

Nice approach, though, waterproof (is it? Raw metal connectors on the top?) and all.

[Funky]

I'm changing my price guess from 4000-4500$ to 4500-5000$. V13 semms "premium" wheel. At least build wise it looks premium. So price also will be premium.

Check V11/V12 price - it's the most expensive in their class to performance. So it won't surprise me that V13 will follow that. Heck it could even cost 5500$, if you think about it.

 

I wish they could now make something 2x smaller. I would happily pay 2500$ for 2x smaller wheel. (And i mean literally everything 2x smaller - range/battery/speed/weight/tire size..) That V13 offers - everything it has.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Funky

[Scoo]

4 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Let the "which chip??" guessing game begin! 
https://www.mouser.com/c/semiconductors/discrete-semiconductors/transistors/mosfet/?mounting style=SMD%2FSMT&number of channels=1 Channel&package %2F case=D2PAK-3|~TO-263~~TO-268-3&pd - power dissipation=200 W~~890 W&transistor polarity=N-Channel&vds - drain-source breakdown voltage=200 V&sort=pricing&rp=semiconductors%2Fdiscrete-semiconductors%2Ftransistors%2Fmosfet|~Package %2F Case|~Pd - Power Dissipation 

But why choose 200V?
All the 200V parts have much worse resistance... so they'll pay to lay down 7 parallels, jeepers. The chips may survive but the total dissipation of the assembly will be very high. Instead, I'd prefer a design like Master (4 parallel 150V FETs), which is the lowest-total-dissipation controller we've seen yet. 
Funny that Inmo previously chose 100V FETs for a 100.8V EUC and got in big trouble for it... skipping 150V and jumping to 200V parts seems like an overreaction. 
 

There is no 200V battery; it's 126V.
We're just discussing the peak voltage rating of the chips...

 

I totaly agree that 200V parts for 126V battery is to much. I also learned that you loose efficency if you pick to high voltage mosfets.

But what i learned is that 19% higher voltage rating on mosfets works for many motorcontroller, it is some margin for peaks. Like 150v for 126v battery. 

150v mosfets for 134.4v battery might be a bit tight like the masters, could work.

[That Guy]

55 minutes ago, Funky said:

I'm changing my price guess from 4000-4500$ to 4500-5000$. V13 semms "premium" wheel. At least build wise it looks premium. So price also will be premium.

Check V11/V12 price - it's the most expensive in their class to performance. So it won't surprise me that V13 will follow that. Heck it could even cost 5500$, if you think about it.

 

I wish they could now make something 2x smaller. I would happily pay 2500$ for 2x smaller wheel. (And i mean literally everything 2x smaller - range/battery/speed/weight/tire size..) That V13 offers - everything it has.

Yeah... I will so much hate to not be able to get the V13 if it is breaking through US$4 - 4.5k mark... :-(

[eucVibes]

 

[RagingGrandpa]

4 hours ago, Paradox said:

Why 18 caps?  Why not 6,9,12 or 15?  For that matter, why not 21,24 etc?

Because that's what fit the box and the budget  

Unlike the FETs (which must appear in multiples of 6), the capacitor configuration is arbitrary. They could use 2 big cans, or 10 little cans, to achieve the same total capacitance. Once installed, they become one large parallel group, and all connect to the same circuit. So the decision becomes one of cost and packaging space.

From a felt-performance standpoint, there will be no substantial difference between 3 large caps and 18 small caps. 

Durability is usually better when using many small cans with short leads, vs large cans with long leads, so I see it as a positive attribute for V13.

[Funky]

37 minutes ago, That Guy said:

Yeah... I will so much hate to not be able to get the V13 if it is breaking through US$4 - 4.5k mark... :-(

Bro.. Even if it's 5500$ You buy it once and forget.. Same as building new PC. Next year or so, i will throw 3000-4000$ into completely new system. That i won't upgrade for 5-10 years. (My 8 years old system is starting to show its age - gpu: gtx660 cpu: fx-8120.)

Yes i know it's a lot of money. But you buy it once in decade. (For reference for ~4000$ i could pay off all my bills/daily needs for 1 year.) I personally have put aside those 4k for the system 2 years ago. I'm simply now waiting the right time to "upgrade". Aka: RTX4000 series and new AMD AM5 cpu's.

Luckily i don't need what V13 offers - it's simply overkill, for what speed/range i need. I'm happy with 50kph speeds and 50km range wheel. -The lighter -The better.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Funky

[winterwheel]

I'm sort of resigned to the idea that it's going to be an absolutely awesome piece of tech that sadly will be too big, heavy, and expensive for me anyway.

Hoping to be wrong, hope abides until the 11th.

I'm okay with the megathread, I too like to see how the discussion has evolved over time.